"Down in Front" Fascism Is Ruining My Burn

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burning tent
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No answers, just my experience

Post by burning tent » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:56 pm

I might be missing the point but the burns weren't that important to me. I went to both but I've seen things burn in the past and if it wasn't cold I didn't really care if I was close.

For the Man, I was on the sno-cone MV. We were a little back but it was good enough for me. I didn't really get a good look at the fire twirlers but I had been watching various ones practice all week and went to their dress rehearsal.

For the Temple though I was right behind the people sitting. I was standing and I believe most everyone behind me was as well. I was also in front of an art car that had a gossamer awning. I think I waited a couple hours for the burn. In that time the space in front of me filled up until I couldn't move my feet without getting in someone's way. I recall that there was a bicycle to my left and that it kept almost getting knocked over onto people.

I'm writing all this just to get to the point of when the Temple really started going up and the embers started falling on the crowd ... well, I was expecting a stampede. People handled it pretty well though I thought. The panic was subdued even with flaming Temple chunks raining down. As I retreated a fellow right next to me took a piece in his chest. And that gossamer awning was just full of holes with more coming by the second.

Anyway, I go now.

Russell Scheidelman
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Post by Russell Scheidelman » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:13 pm

By the tone of Unjonhurley's response (and incorrect identification, since I was not "screaming" at anyone), I can see that this subject brings out the same ugly vibes that I was experiencing out on the playa. Behold it, fellow Burners, and ponder...

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netatelier
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To Sit or Stand?

Post by netatelier » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:18 pm

Watching a burn, we are not so passive as at the opera house - our participation is integral, our social contract balanced with the beckonings of our creative and experimental muses. If those around you have conformed to a socialistic mode, incite anarchy, others may respond. The experiment is never over, making people a little uncomfortable may lead to a more heightened resolution ultimately for everyone. The day a Burningman Hegemony quashes chaos entirely is the day it won't matter whether you see the man burn or not - might as well stay at home and watch it on video.
"I have seen the enemy and it is Me"

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zeigen
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Post by zeigen » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:31 pm

A lot of this is about expectations.

For both burns, I'm with groups that arrive early, and we always avoid the easiest location.

For the Man burn, pick an obscure spot, like 11 or 1.

For the Temple burn, try the back.

The crowds are less thick, and the people are happier and more cooperative with each other.

For the Man burn, we were in the first row. We arrived and sat down, and we stayed seated the entire time of the burn until the man himself caught fire. So did everyone around us, and for about ten rows back. There were no shouts and no ugliness, just awe at what we saw.

The the Temple burn, the crowd in our area mostly sat in unison (except for one lone stander, who wouldn't sit no matter what was offered, hugs, words, bribes of candy... so everyone just skootched in unison around him to leave him his space). But we did stand when the Temple started to burn, which I thought was counterproductive. But there was enough room to the left and right for sitters, so the people who wanted to sit could do so. Since the Temple burn lasted so long, eventually just about everyone I could see was sitting.

So, my advice is to take the road less traveled and find the spot where the crowds are thinnest.

The fewer the people are there, the fewer expectation clashes will come into being.

But, when there are clashes in expectations, all of us tend to be pretty stubborn individualists, who don't like to be told what to do and we often have vastly different ideas about what's best. Talking 1:1 and trying to understand each other's perspective seems to be the best approach.

My fiance is 5' tall and she could can never see a thing if people are standing. (We left the Mutaytor show pretty quickly because we couldn't find a place where she could see anything.) So for us, finding a group of happy sitters is a priority. With a little effort, we can usually find a spot where everyone wants what we want.

Good luck to all in future burns in finding what you need.

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netatelier
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Sit or Stand?

Post by netatelier » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:36 pm

I admit that last comment was a little pretentious - apologies all around - but you get my drift.
"I have seen the enemy and it is Me"

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unjonharley
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Re: Sit or Stand?

Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:51 pm

netatelier wrote:I admit that last comment was a little pretentious - apologies all around - but you get my drift.


/\
no i don't get your self rightous,drift. Next time i'll let some one kick your ass. That's all a dumb ass like you will uderstand. You were screaming at people that wanted you to sit down.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Post by Hotspur » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:29 pm

The questions we all have to ask ourselves are:

"What is it reasonable for me to expect of other people to facilitate my view?"

"What is reasonably expected of me to facilitate the views of others?"

If somebody's kneeling in front of you, rather than sitting, it seems like the logical solution is, rather than standing, to ask them to sit back. Obviously, some folks with be assholes and won't do it. But standing seems to take their slight misbehavior as a liscence for worse on your part.

There's no easy solution, except this: I was pretty far back this year, outside the crush of people, and had the best burn I've had yet. I'm starting to think that being close is overrated. :) Although, of course, I don't blame anybody for wanting to do it once or twice.

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:58 pm

From a purely personal perspective, I believe people are responsible for the tenor and quality of their own experiences. Therefore I think that much of the commentary, -and all of the anger, around this issue is misguided.

If you have a 'bad burn' or get put out because somebody is in your line of sight, well then I say that is on you. Similarly, I think if you get in a twist because somebody wants you to sit down, and verbally abuses you when you refuse, then that too is your own issue.

You have no right to an unobstructed view in a crowd.
You have no right to compliance with your desires.
You have no right to be treated with respect by those you thwart.

Again, I say if some jackass is in your way then move, -its a lake-bed not a broom closet. Move to the back, move to the side, come in stilts. The number of solutions is nearly endless, and it is only your childish insistence on the effecting the one that is predicated on cooperation by the stander that is the source of your anger.

As for the posts in this thread advocating or professing to agree with the righteousness of violence towards this guy, all I can say is you are more the source of such problems then you can ever be the solution to.

How can you expect to influence the physical and social behavior of another being when you can't control the basest of your own emotional reactions?
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:18 pm

Don, It would be nice if you knew what you were talking about.

When ranger asks and tells you to sit down and your refuse. It's time for you to be removed by what ever means.

If you have trouble with following a ranges directions. da. Stay home.
If you go to a concert and are told to sit down and you refuse. You"will" be removed. If the removal is a struggel you would end up n jail.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Lydia Love
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Post by Lydia Love » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:27 pm

jeebus, unjon... by whatever means? I think I'll be trying to avoid sittin' next to ya at any burns... Anywho, it's *not* a concert in the default world. It's fucking burning man. There are different things you can try and do to improve your experience. Suggesting physical violence for blocking your view is pretty freakin extreme.

DM, I do adore you. *kiss kiss*
It's all about the squirrels.

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:32 pm

Well, you are certainly making the case for the author's accuracy in titling this thread, but I can't actually agree with your analysis.

The Rangers are not law enforcement, and no law is being broken. The author represented no threat to himself or others, and yet you would see him removed 'by what ever (sic) means?'

Have you ever killed someone for farting in your car?
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:32 pm

So L.L., It would be fine for me to do a speed test up the six o''clock line huh? Just cuz i'm at BM means I can fuck over every one. Sounds good on paper.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:39 pm

Don Muerto wrote:Well, you are certainly making the case for the author's accuracy in titling this thread, but I can't actually agree with your analysis.

The Rangers are not law enforcement, and no law is being broken. The author represented no threat to himself or others, and yet you would see him removed 'by what ever (sic) means?'

Have you ever killed someone for farting in your car?
Here is another one. You see nothing wrong with fucking over people. Why shouldn't I kill you for farting in my car. I can just tell em you&I danced to to a different tune. You lost.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:39 pm

Methamphetamine, or 'speed', as you say is illegal in all of Nevada including Black Rock City. Therefore, if you 'test' a line at 6:00, -a.m. *or* p.m., then you risk running afoul of some of Pershing County's finest.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:45 pm

Don Muerto wrote:Methamphetamine, or 'speed', as you say is illegal in all of Nevada including Black Rock City. Therefore, if you 'test' a line at 6:00, -a.m. *or* p.m., then you risk running afoul of some of Pershing County's finest.


Sorry the cops were not into inforceing any speed laws. Go back and reread. The 5mph is a BM rule with attemped inforcement by BRC rangers. Sitting down i front was a attemped inforced rule by the BRC rangers.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:46 pm

Oh yes unjon, I am neatly pinned and flayed by your logic.

I concede. It has become clear to me that if guys like this don't sit down in the front row of a burn, then there will be car-fart murders and worse. We can't go around letting people fuck us over! We have to kill them!

It'll be anarchy... It's out of my hands.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Natasha
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Post by Natasha » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:47 pm

This was my husband's and my first burn and I must say that both the Burning of the Man and the burning of the Temple far exceeded my wildest dreams. I notice some people standing and some people sitting, so we just moved around to see the best that we could, and tried to not block anyone else. The views were good but not perfect. I also noticed a lot of vocal noise at the Temple burn but I also remember how quiet it got as the burn started. It seems that people who have attended year after year come with varying expectations and are often disappointed. It would seem that it would easier to release the expectations and experience each event on its own. As a "first timer" these were the most amazing experiences. The energy and spirit that flowed through me during the temple burn was something that I have never experienced before and will remember forever. I don't even care who was standing and who was sitting. Thank you to those who created possibility for me to experience my experience.
[i]The future belongs to those who believe in the power of their dreams.[/i]

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:49 pm

Natasha, you can fart in *my* car any day.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:52 pm

Don Muerto wrote:Oh yes unjon, I am neatly pinned and flayed by your logic.

I concede. It has become clear to me that if guys like this don't sit down in the front row of a burn, then there will be car-fart murders and worse. We can't go around letting people fuck us over! We have to kill them!

It'll be anarchy... It's out of my hands.


You are the only one I would murder cuz you asked me so nicely. Now run alone and don't be twisting my wordsK¿
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:58 pm

With all the car-fart murders lately, I would feel safer if I could run with friends.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:05 pm

Natasha, That temple burn was some thing else for me also. There were feelings coming and go so fast for me. Mostly about my lost loved ones. The best part was the folks surrounding me. The troubles they had gettng started gave us time to bond. The temple was so far out I had to drive the large scooter. People sat and back rested all over it. One older gent climbed into the back and sat down. He was very happy to be able to rest. When the crowd seraged I back out and gave rides back to the city.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:08 pm

Don Muerto wrote:With all the car-fart murders lately, I would feel safer if I could run with friends.


I can't believe you have any friends.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:11 pm

Since one of us is outclassed, I will quit the field.

Good day to you sir.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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netatelier
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Stand or Sit

Post by netatelier » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:12 pm

Friends, we have a little division - this is at least interesting, much more so than docily conforming to some socialistic assumption that we should all behave just so. Coming from one of the most conservative cities in the country, please let burningman not become another obstacle course of bourgeois liberal values. Experimentation, Spontaneity, Random Convergence - If the divisions sustain themselves for 358 more days, perhaps we will converge into something beyond my way or yours to everyone's delight in 2005.
"I have seen the enemy and it is Me"

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Lydia Love
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Post by Lydia Love » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:20 pm

speed test up the six o''clock line huh
do you see that there might just possibly be a teensy weensy little difference between doing something that actually endangers others and something that just annoys the fuck out of them?
It's all about the squirrels.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:23 pm

Lydia Love wrote:
speed test up the six o''clock line huh
do you see that there might just possibly be a teensy weensy little difference between doing something that actually endangers others and something that just annoys the fuck out of them?


No.Just picking a rule at random and breaking it as you suggested.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Lydia Love
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Post by Lydia Love » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:26 pm

as you suggested
I never freakin suggested such a thing. NOW whose twisting words?
It's all about the squirrels.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:32 pm

[quote="Lydia Love"] . Anywho, it's *not* a concert in the default world. It's fucking burning man. There are different things you can try and do to improve your experience.


/\
After all it's BM. Do as you please. Screw every body. No one cares how much you fck there ride.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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drowned_saved
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Re: "Down in Front" Fascism Is Ruining My Burn

Post by drowned_saved » Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:48 pm

Russell Scheidelman wrote:It revealed an ugliness that I had never before witnessed in Black Rock City (this was my 7th Burn).
in all those years, you've never used the portapotties?

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:03 pm

From a purely personal perspective, I believe people are responsible for the tenor and quality of their own experiences. Therefore I think that much of the commentary, -and all of the anger, around this issue is misguided.

If you have a 'bad burn' or get put out because somebody is in your line of sight, well then I say that is on you. Similarly, I think if you get in a twist because somebody wants you to sit down, and verbally abuses you when you refuse, then that too is your own issue.

You have no right to an unobstructed view in a crowd.
You have no right to compliance with your desires.
You have no right to be treated with respect by those you thwart.

Again, I say if some jackass is in your way then move, -its a lake-bed not a broom closet. Move to the back, move to the side, come in stilts. The number of solutions is nearly endless, and it is only your childish insistence on the effecting the one that is predicated on cooperation by the stander that is the source of your anger.

As for the posts in this thread advocating or professing to agree with the righteousness of violence towards this guy, all I can say is you are more the source of such problems then you can ever be the solution to.

How can you expect to influence the physical and social behavior of another being when you can't control the basest of your own emotional reactions?
Just re-reading your post from last year Don.

Kisses for striking the hot iron heart of the matter.

You rock. Always.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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