I feel Burning Man is a White thing

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by FIGJAM » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:02 pm

I didn't know BM was suppose to "fix" anything.

Radical self relience yo!!!!!!! 8)
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by theCryptofishist » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:26 pm

Just going to chime in and say that it is not white by the llc's intention. It started among (predominantly) white artists (and other "creatives" I could say; and I am, but I don't like it) and some portion of its growth was word of mouth. I don't know what the readerships of Wired or the AAA magazine (Via?) are demographically, those being two of the magazines that had early articles about it. There is an african american park ranger at Yosemite National Park (no link, gov'ment can't afford web services) who discusses the history of Buffalo Soldiers as early de facto park rangers; I've never met him, but I've read articles about him and he specifically says that african americans don't camp, which may play into it. (I don't know your ethnicity, and I don't know that it's important, so this may not matter to you. It might be a matter of disposable income, or of white people being more willing to spend one of their two weeks off a year doing this.
As for not being greeted on the street, did you try walking up to a camp and saying hi? Not even interactive theme camps, but just regular camps, with a shade structure. I don't have an easy time of it, but I'm awkward. But that is one of the normal, not quite conversational, gambits. You walk up, say hi, and see what happens.
I'm sure there are active, unrepentant, vicious, scary racists there. My guess is that they are fewer than in the population at large. Many of the rest of us grew up in America, a profoundly racist country, bear the scars, and want to do right, but maybe we don't know how.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by trilobyte » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:50 pm

@abkiwi - I'm sorry to hear that you had experiences that made you feel that way about the event. Whether real or imagined, it sucks to feel like an outsider or excluded in any way. It seems unlikely and implausible that a number of different camps and individuals would conspire to make somebody feel excluded, but Burning Man is what you make of it and perception is reality. I'm not aware of any mandates to go up and say hello to people, or to avoid certain people/ethnicities, so it's hard to comment other than to say that it sounds like you came to the event with your own expectations that weren't met. I'm sorry to hear it. At Burning Man you can feel more loved and welcome than you have anywhere else on the planet, or you can feel more alone in the universe than ever before (I often feel both throughout the course of the week) - the event is what you make of it.

@danwax & @Simon - please play nice. Personal attacks and trollish behavior are unwelcome on this site.

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by Morrell » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:07 am

Well put,Trilo!!!!!!!!!

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:19 am

i fight fire with fire and if i see racist horse shit i will call it out for what it is.


i will refrain from ad hominem attacks and instead go after the philosophy behind it, but i wont allow inflammatory statements to slip by, especially of this nature, without a response.
Last edited by Simon of the Playa on Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:31 am

I'm Quite certain that Dan is spewing the party line of the political entity that was recently swept into power in quebec that has no qualms about being openly racist in their speeches and platform.




i have no tolerance for no tolerance.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by H.G.Crosby » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:32 am

ask a quebecois on the LEFT side of the aisle what they think, they'll tell you.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by otakup0pe » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:19 pm

What the hell happened in this thread.

But for real, I thought the white party sucked.

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by Ugly Dougly » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:31 pm

abkiwi wrote:This was my first year and got the overall impression that this must be an amazing event for white people. I gained courage to walk up to people and say hello, but not a one came up to me. I'm a generally friendly person and have no problems meeting people in my life/striking up conversations with strangers, but I felt totally out of place at Burning Man. I wish I was white. Oh well.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by maryanimal » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:29 pm

Image
Sometimes I'm confused by what I think is really obvious. But what I think is really obvious obviously isn't obvious.

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by Elliot » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:59 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:
abkiwi wrote:This was my first year and got the overall impression that this must be an amazing event for white people. I gained courage to walk up to people and say hello, but not a one came up to me. I'm a generally friendly person and have no problems meeting people in my life/striking up conversations with strangers, but I felt totally out of place at Burning Man. I wish I was white. Oh well.
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Considering his moniker, I think it is possible that he is Maori and we just blew a fabulous chance to learn all kinds of cool cultural stuff from him. Not to mention welcome a new member, whom we know nothing about yet, to ePlaya. (But... I've been wrong before.)

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by ygmir » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:00 pm

Elliot wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:
abkiwi wrote:This was my first year and got the overall impression that this must be an amazing event for white people. I gained courage to walk up to people and say hello, but not a one came up to me. I'm a generally friendly person and have no problems meeting people in my life/striking up conversations with strangers, but I felt totally out of place at Burning Man. I wish I was white. Oh well.
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Considering his moniker, I think it is possible that he is Maori and we just blew a fabulous chance to learn all kinds of cool cultural stuff from him. Not to mention welcome a new member, whom we know nothing about yet, to ePlaya. (But... I've been wrong before.)
not to mention cool tatoos and a really long tongue.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by BBadger » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:04 pm

Holy fucking shit. Talk about falling hook, line, and sinker for some troll on the forum. The majority of this thread's reactionary content towards danwax really should have died around Eric's post on the first page. I can't believe it's already page four.

A few one liners sets off a torrent of angry rhetoric. Add in a sprinkling of quick-but-empty retorts and the flames remain fanned. Huge amounts of back-slapping defensive posturing ensues.

Classic.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by gyre » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:14 pm

And he may just not be online regularly, like many people.

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:08 pm

abkiwi wrote:I wish I was white. Oh well.
I'm sorry I missed this before. There are things I don't like about myself, and I'll readily admit that being fat, middle-aged, a woman, and a cripple put me at plenty of disadvantage in all sorts of situations, but I rarely wish I was otherwise.
I don't know how to reach out for this, but my heart goes out to you to know that you feel that way about yourself. When you are comfortable in your own skin--and I admit that takes some doing for some of us--I think you'll be a lot happier, and a lot more ready to find your way at burningman, or where ever you find yourself. Or take yourself, let's give you more agency in my advice.
Hang in there, learn to be yourself...

I wish I had some magic words for this.
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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by andy » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:10 pm

Burning man is not a "white thing" any more than hockey is a "Canadian thing". People do things that their friends do, and we're still in a society where people typically hang out with others of a similar race, religion, ethnicity, etc. Over time, it starts to equalize, but for a once-a-year event that can be a very long time. There's no question that Black Rock City has a very small black population, but I've seen it growning, albeit slowly, over time.

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by tatonka » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:08 pm

my friend who is a red head , he said no one came up to him ,and talked to him , he thought it must be a black ,brown ,blonde hair kinda place. I said no way , then I thought how i didnt get a chance to talk to Eric at the M&G and did I secretly have Ginger Phobia? But no , my friend is a red head , I just didnt get a chance to talk with Eric and say Hi . These things happen ")
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:20 pm

This is where I'd ordinarily jump in with a deadpan "Anti-Ginger is the only acceptable prejudice."
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by FIGJAM » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:31 pm

But...but....they're magical!!! 8)
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by Simon of the Playa » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:19 am

wow, being a red-headed black guy sure must be tough.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by Eric » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:38 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:wow, being a red-headed black guy sure must be tough.

Just makes you tougher...

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by DrYes » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:45 pm

I get where the OP is coming from, sort of. What I don't get is the idea that there are only two races that matter: white and black.

If anything, I'd call Burning Man predominantly a Caucasian and Asian event. Throw some Caucasians of Hispanic descent in and that was our camp this year, at least.

I also noticed a lot of attractive Asian females (probably just don't notice the males as much) both this year and last.

Whatevas. As a previous poster said, how an event is originally seeded often determines its demographic makeup going forward. Quora is the same thing as Ask.com fundamentally, but the crowds you'll find on the two differ vastly (smart people on the former, not-so-much on the latter) purely due to which communities initially seeded the site.

To those who don't understand why a black person might feel uncomfortable though....give me a break. How many of you who are white can really say you spend time looking to attend events that are overwhelmingly black? Some of you probably can. Most of you can't. Not an indictment. America and the world in general are from from post-racial.

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by forty_eight » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:37 pm

well, this thread delivered ... lol

here's an anecdote that shows the transcendent capacity of burning man:

the carrots were assembled for a counter march to address our grievances with the bunnies

srs bsns right there srs

a black girl with bunny ears stumbled upon our party

she was welcomed and her cup was filled - literally and metaphorically

but what is important came next

she arrived a bunny

fully self identified

and on that day she became a carrot

we welcomed a bunny

and delivered to the world a new carrot activist

ponder that shit real hard

Burning Man - Fuck Yeahhh!

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by BBadger » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:15 pm

DrYes wrote:To those who don't understand why a black person might feel uncomfortable though....give me a break. How many of you who are white can really say you spend time looking to attend events that are overwhelmingly black? Some of you probably can. Most of you can't. Not an indictment. America and the world in general are from from post-racial.
Well, there's always that feeling of being an outsider. That's expected. It's intimidating too, but it's more about your own feelings about your relationship to others not like you for which they are a majority.

The problem I had with the OP's message was that the lack of people actively "embracing diversity" shouldn't indicate that there's some sort of racial divide here. If anything, it should indicate that race isn't something of significance.

That feeling is also why I think that "does your camp embrace racial diversity" thread is utterly ridiculous. If your camp feels the need to "embrace" diversity, it obviously means a lack of diversity is on your mind and you may be forcing artificial diversity just to meet some sort of diversity obligation. It's the kind of thinking that results in diversity quotas for business organizations. At that point it seems things are moving towards being "politically correct."

If people were lining up to shake the hand of the OP for his or her race, I'd be far more worried. Then it's more a message of "oh, it's okay that you're <race>, we still like you!" What is that really saying about that person's status in society?
48_love wrote:and on that day she became a carrot

ponder that shit real hard
After reading that, I think I need to try some of your carrots some day.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by Boijoy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:20 pm

I feel Burning Man is a Stupid thing. I mean, you have to be REAL Stupid to camp in that desert !!
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by unjonharley » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:31 pm

Boijoy wrote:I feel Burning Man is a Stupid thing. I mean, you have to be REAL Stupid to camp in that desert !!
You are so right.. The whole thing sucks..

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by DrYes » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:40 pm

BBadger wrote: The problem I had with the OP's message was that the lack of people actively "embracing diversity" shouldn't indicate that there's some sort of racial divide here. If anything, it should indicate that race isn't something of significance.
Because people aren't actively embracing diversity it indicates race isn't something of significance?

So the fact that my local Klan chapter (well, hypothetical one...I live in an area where they'd get lynched rather than be doing the lynching) doesn't actively embrace diversity should tell us that race isn't significant to them? I don't follow that logic.
That feeling is also why I think that "does your camp embrace racial diversity" thread is utterly ridiculous. If your camp feels the need to "embrace" diversity, it obviously means a lack of diversity is on your mind and you may be forcing artificial diversity just to meet some sort of diversity obligation.
I don't really know what to say to this. I don't think anyone was suggesting quotas. I'm not even casting blame. We are not in a post-racial world, and the fact is, people tend to hang out with folks they feel are similar to them. That's too bad, but kind of inevitable. If your camp feels a need to embrace diversity, good for it - that's an admirable sentiment to my mind. Not sure why anyone would have a problem with that. Doesn't mean everyone has to, but why would you slam someone for reaching out and trying to make Burning Man feel more inclusive to folks who don't feel that inclusion vibe? Seems like only a good thing to me. No need to get put on the defensive by someone else's attempts at inclusion - it's not a slam or slight on you or your camp.
If people were lining up to shake the hand of the OP for his or her race, I'd be far more worried. Then it's more a message of "oh, it's okay that you're <race>, we still like you!" What is that really saying about that person's status in society?
Can't imagine anyone at BM doing that, though I guess there are always the corner cases.

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by forty_eight » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:08 pm

BBadger wrote:
48_love wrote:and on that day she became a carrot

ponder that shit real hard
After reading that, I think I need to try some of your carrots some day.
lol

maybe the better way to put it is by appropriating a proverb:

if you see someone from a different race on the playa, kill them

or, something like that

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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by BBadger » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:06 pm

DrYes wrote:
BBadger wrote: The problem I had with the OP's message was that the lack of people actively "embracing diversity" shouldn't indicate that there's some sort of racial divide here. If anything, it should indicate that race isn't something of significance.
Because people aren't actively embracing diversity it indicates race isn't something of significance?

So the fact that my local Klan chapter (well, hypothetical one...I live in an area where they'd get lynched rather than be doing the lynching) doesn't actively embrace diversity should tell us that race isn't significant to them? I don't follow that logic.
Actually your local Klan is embracing diversity strongly and in fact amplifying its concepts. The distinction is that they're not considering diverse elements as equal or complementary (in equal status) within a mixed group. Just as one does not have to support a group elected in fair democratic society, one does not need to support diverse elements within a society in a "positive" light -- even if their existence is acknowledged, and their differences celebrated.

Conversely, a social group that does not treat diversity as a point of significance is one where fairness, with respect to that diversity, is most evident. That fairness is not necessarily "good" either -- as the OP found out -- it just means that now you're not treated special, for better or worse.
I don't really know what to say to this. I don't think anyone was suggesting quotas. I'm not even casting blame. We are not in a post-racial world, and the fact is, people tend to hang out with folks they feel are similar to them. That's too bad, but kind of inevitable. If your camp feels a need to embrace diversity, good for it - that's an admirable sentiment to my mind. Not sure why anyone would have a problem with that. Doesn't mean everyone has to, but why would you slam someone for reaching out and trying to make Burning Man feel more inclusive to folks who don't feel that inclusion vibe? Seems like only a good thing to me. No need to get put on the defensive by someone else's attempts at inclusion - it's not a slam or slight on you or your camp.
I'm not slamming anyone here. I just think the concept that the topic of diversity comes up in such a manner to be questionable. Do you look at the demographics of your camp and start thinking "oh wow, we're a bunch of white people, let's make some black friends!" No, I think that's rather stupid. After all, what is your motivation at that point?

So I'm asking: why does that question come up at all? To me, it's like asking: "does your camp allow other races in?" -- which shouldn't need to be asked (and if it does, then there is a problem); or, "are you trying to make your camp more diverse?" which implies a quota.

Maybe I'm more offended by the question and why it is asked -- not that it's a ridiculous question to ask as I said before. My view is that I don't care about diversity. If it happens, it happens. I'm not seeking out diversity, nor preventing it. I hope I don't get asked about embracing diversity, because I try to keep it a non-issue.
Can't imagine anyone at BM doing that, though I guess there are always the corner cases.
I sure hope not as well.

Let me also state here that I had an unfounded impression that the OP expected special consideration in dealings with people at the event. That was wrong, and was not reflected in his message.

Still, I do think that the lack of people coming up to him was not related to race. It just happened because of how people socialize. Random people don't come up to me at the event either, or my friends -- or quite frankly most people who aren't familiar (like mentioned in that shyness thread). I think this was really just a case of people embracing the concept of diversity, but not assigning much significance to it. Conversely, if people were making a huge deal about the OP (the shaking your hand line), I think that would be a bigger indicator that he's the odd-man-out. Celebrity comes from being treated different after all.

There's also the issue of the majority not identifying with the minority. That the ultimate form of status is the luxury of unawareness of issues below your position. Maybe most of us are blind to the issues the OP had, the feeling of alienation. That despite your best efforts, the response from others was not forthcoming. I don't know what to say to that. As the OP has not returned, we don't know his history, or other incidents that would lend credence to his assertion. From my view though, I don't think his assertion that being white would have changed anything. Burning Man can be a lonely event, especially if you perceive yourself as being different. Maybe the race factor has to do with belonging to larger groups that you already know, not necessarily how others are treating you. Perhaps that was the real message of the OP.
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Re: I feel Burning Man is a White thing

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:12 pm

I wish the OP would come back and say what he thinks about all this. Because at this point, we've inevitably moved into a very abstract conversation, and we're making guesses as to how all this related to the original observation.
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