Plug n plays running amuk

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:58 pm

It ain't the money, it's the attitude. An interactive PnP is far better than your little exclusive bar.


nail.on.head.
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Sandstorm
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Sandstorm » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:01 pm

vargaso: Is that Jack Lord in your profile photo?

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Lonesomebri
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Lonesomebri » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:02 pm

As long as Plug and Play folks are just like you and me, facing the same dust, maybe they would like to join Camp Threat and sit on my luggable lou, and I'll shit in their air-conditioned porta-pottie....after all...it's all the same, right? Right? We actually believe this? Why do they put out the money for Plug and Play if it's all the same? Delusion is a powerful thing. And how dare anyone complain !!!! Nothing, other than all the progress in the entire world, was ever accomplished by voicing dissatisfaction at something wrong. I pity the "burners" who spent all their time grooving to the electronic music and don't actually give a fuck about the Burn. Maybe if they spent a bit of their narcissistic energy helping the event be better.... Oh well, the rich always have their apologist. When the event becomes a music festival, with paid performers, and paying voyeurs, once the hotel and casino gets built, directed sales to the highest bidders, confirmed space for the well-paying, people who do art and weirdos shut out completely, then, we will really be all alike. Or not. But complaining and bitching? That's how I Burn, baby.
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vargaso
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by vargaso » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:08 pm

Sandstorm wrote:vargaso: Is that Jack Lord in your profile photo?
Indeed, our Lord and Savior.

caffeineslinger
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by caffeineslinger » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:22 pm

PnP camps did not ruin my burn and I was in the neighborhood of several. My concern is the amount of people I saw working as servants. That to me is NOT participating. When one has servants out there they are using more than one ticket for themselves which are very limited as we all know. How many didn't get to go because someone didn't want to make their own lunch?

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Nipple
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Nipple » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:24 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:
It ain't the money, it's the attitude. An interactive PnP is far better than your little exclusive bar.


nail.on.head.
This is some of the most argumentatively, vehemently agreeing with what the poster has said that I've seen.

"I like flowers."
"FUCK YOU! DAISIES ARE GOD DAMN RAD."

maladroit
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by maladroit » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:31 pm

caffeineslinger wrote:PnP camps did not ruin my burn and I was in the neighborhood of several. My concern is the amount of people I saw working as servants. That to me is NOT participating. When one has servants out there they are using more than one ticket for themselves which are very limited as we all know. How many didn't get to go because someone didn't want to make their own lunch?
That's a fair point, it touches on Radical Inclusion in addition to the Decommodification and Radical Self-Reliance that PnP's ignore already.

The principles aren't commandments that you can break, but goals to work toward. Nobody "obeys" them all, or always makes forward progress on them. That doesn't mean it's hypocritical to point out someone who is actively dragging them backwards.

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vargaso
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by vargaso » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:38 pm

caffeineslinger wrote:PnP camps did not ruin my burn and I was in the neighborhood of several. My concern is the amount of people I saw working as servants. That to me is NOT participating. When one has servants out there they are using more than one ticket for themselves which are very limited as we all know. How many didn't get to go because someone didn't want to make their own lunch?
Another excellent point. And the only way to guarantee tickets for all the "help" is to buy them aftermarket, most likely at jacked up prices, thereby encouraging more scalping. Unless they're actually getting vendor tickets, in which case, fucking bullshit. And what up with the security guards I'm hearing about? Christ. I take 2 years off and the whole place goes to shit! Ha.

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vargaso
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by vargaso » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:41 pm

Nipple wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:
It ain't the money, it's the attitude. An interactive PnP is far better than your little exclusive bar.


nail.on.head.
This is some of the most argumentatively, vehemently agreeing with what the poster has said that I've seen.

"I like flowers."
"FUCK YOU! DAISIES ARE GOD DAMN RAD."
I don't know, the gist I got from the poster is that "PnP's aren't that bad, we treat people just as shittily as they do!" I could be wrong though.

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unjonharley
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:47 pm

maladroit wrote:
caffeineslinger wrote:PnP camps did not ruin my burn and I was in the neighborhood of several. My concern is the amount of people I saw working as servants. That to me is NOT participating. When one has servants out there they are using more than one ticket for themselves which are very limited as we all know. How many didn't get to go because someone didn't want to make their own lunch?
That's a fair point, it touches on Radical Inclusion in addition to the Decommodification and Radical Self-Reliance that PnP's ignore already.

The principles aren't commandments that you can break, but goals to work toward. Nobody "obeys" them all, or always makes forward progress on them. That doesn't mean it's hypocritical to point out someone who is actively dragging them backwards.
I pay for my Radical Self-Reliance.. When rough roads blew a new tire.. I beckoned and a servant arrived to change the tire and pull me out of the pucker brush onto the road.. I also pay for Air Lift, Ambulance and Cremation.. Damn well expect a servant to snap shit when called.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Ano » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:00 pm

Not really, but you can read that if you want.

My point is that debating the existence or validity of so-called "plug n play" camps is a waste of time, a strawman that doesn't necessarily exist. There are tons of stories popping out of people walking in to Caravancicle like they owned the place and being asked to leave. I can give you tons of stories of errant participants wandering in to the Black Hole or the DPW ghetto and receiving the same treatment. I know people are complaining that Caravancicle had paid staff members. Commissary exists to feed volunteers, first camp has private chefs, and volunteers in various staff departments receive benefits that people complain about in PnP camps for doing a couple of shifts here and there on playa.

I spent a lot of time talking with the camp lead of a major PnP camp on K Street, and after actually enganging him and the participants within his camp, I walked away with a whole new perspective on them. PnP camps honestly demand a lot of work from their participants. His camp had multiple shifts each camper had to adhere to, doing things like MOOPing their street, or riding their popsicle cart into Deep Playa to serve popsicles, or even running the bar at the camp and serving drinks. Are they less of a Burner because they had shifts that made them interact directly with the city? There's some stupid Us v. Them thing that has been spawned in recent years, and people love to complain about any aspect of PnP that they can, without realizing how utterly hypocritical it is.

"Their bar didn't serve me!" - I know tons of bars that won't serve you for many reasons.

"They wouldn't let me into their private camp area!" - neither will my camp, or many others. It's private for a reason.

"They block off huge chunks of real estate pre-event!" - Ever walk down H, I, or J street Thursday/Friday pre-event? Tons of people do this.

"They paid for an RV to sleep in!" - I bet you paid for your tent, or rented RV, or hell, even brought your own. Who cares how it got there? Someone in my camp had his RV driven by a campmate up. Are we participating in the horrible PnP economy? Someone delivered my carport to me on Playa early, because my car couldn't fit it. PnP? Hell, most of my camp showed up to a totally built camp because myself and three others built the whole thing for them before they arrived. Plugged and played!

"They get free meals cooked for them!" - so do BM volunteers who work enough hours, and the work is more fun than "work" a lot of the time. My camp had a volunteer cook, and I returned home many nights to fresh food off a grill. PnP?

Please, tell me, in clear words, exactly how someone paying $10,000 to have a posh camp and air conditioned RV is chipping away at the very fabric of the event. After all, depending on who you ask, these camps have been doing it for over fifteen years now. And, as far as I can see, Burning Man is still fucking awesome. Describe to me how the McManor's on K street ruined your Burn. If someone camping in posh conditions is ruining your burn, I think you might have a problem that extends beyond Burning Man. Once you're outside of camp, what conditions you return home to don't matter that much. The playa still has white-outs and wind storms and rain and all that jazzy shit.

maladroit
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by maladroit » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:06 pm

I think we're all just upset that someone at Burning Man didn't touch rebar.

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VultureChow
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by VultureChow » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:09 pm

Is that a new euphemism for penis?
Sic Semper Spectatores

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Roberto Dobbisano
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:11 pm

"Pen Island"
"10 principles? you cant HANDLE the 10 principles..."

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unjonharley
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:12 pm

VultureChow wrote:Is that a new euphemism for penis?
Don't you mean "playa penis" :?:
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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VultureChow
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by VultureChow » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:15 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:"Pen Island"
No man is an island.
unjonharley wrote:
Don't you mean "playa penis" :?:
Maybe. All I know is that it was way harder than it should have been to get the rebar out of my monkey hut.
Sic Semper Spectatores

caffeineslinger
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by caffeineslinger » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:20 pm

unjonharley wrote:
maladroit wrote:
caffeineslinger wrote:PnP camps did not ruin my burn and I was in the neighborhood of several. My concern is the amount of people I saw working as servants. That to me is NOT participating. When one has servants out there they are using more than one ticket for themselves which are very limited as we all know. How many didn't get to go because someone didn't want to make their own lunch?
That's a fair point, it touches on Radical Inclusion in addition to the Decommodification and Radical Self-Reliance that PnP's ignore already.

The principles aren't commandments that you can break, but goals to work toward. Nobody "obeys" them all, or always makes forward progress on them. That doesn't mean it's hypocritical to point out someone who is actively dragging them backwards.
I pay for my Radical Self-Reliance.. When rough roads blew a new tire.. I beckoned and a servant arrived to change the tire and pull me out of the pucker brush onto the road.. I also pay for Air Lift, Ambulance and Cremation.. Damn well expect a servant to snap shit when called.
I can make my own lunch. If I need an Air Lift I can't do it myself.
Ano wrote:Not really, but you can read that if you want.

My point is that debating the existence or validity of so-called "plug n play" camps is a waste of time, a strawman that doesn't necessarily exist. There are tons of stories popping out of people walking in to Caravancicle like they owned the place and being asked to leave. I can give you tons of stories of errant participants wandering in to the Black Hole or the DPW ghetto and receiving the same treatment. I know people are complaining that Caravancicle had paid staff members. Commissary exists to feed volunteers, first camp has private chefs, and volunteers in various staff departments receive benefits that people complain about in PnP camps for doing a couple of shifts here and there on playa.

I spent a lot of time talking with the camp lead of a major PnP camp on K Street, and after actually enganging him and the participants within his camp, I walked away with a whole new perspective on them. PnP camps honestly demand a lot of work from their participants. His camp had multiple shifts each camper had to adhere to, doing things like MOOPing their street, or riding their popsicle cart into Deep Playa to serve popsicles, or even running the bar at the camp and serving drinks. Are they less of a Burner because they had shifts that made them interact directly with the city? There's some stupid Us v. Them thing that has been spawned in recent years, and people love to complain about any aspect of PnP that they can, without realizing how utterly hypocritical it is.

"Their bar didn't serve me!" - I know tons of bars that won't serve you for many reasons.

"They wouldn't let me into their private camp area!" - neither will my camp, or many others. It's private for a reason.

"They block off huge chunks of real estate pre-event!" - Ever walk down H, I, or J street Thursday/Friday pre-event? Tons of people do this.

"They paid for an RV to sleep in!" - I bet you paid for your tent, or rented RV, or hell, even brought your own. Who cares how it got there? Someone in my camp had his RV driven by a campmate up. Are we participating in the horrible PnP economy? Someone delivered my carport to me on Playa early, because my car couldn't fit it. PnP? Hell, most of my camp showed up to a totally built camp because myself and three others built the whole thing for them before they arrived. Plugged and played!

"They get free meals cooked for them!" - so do BM volunteers who work enough hours, and the work is more fun than "work" a lot of the time. My camp had a volunteer cook, and I returned home many nights to fresh food off a grill. PnP?

Please, tell me, in clear words, exactly how someone paying $10,000 to have a posh camp and air conditioned RV is chipping away at the very fabric of the event. After all, depending on who you ask, these camps have been doing it for over fifteen years now. And, as far as I can see, Burning Man is still fucking awesome. Describe to me how the McManor's on K street ruined your Burn. If someone camping in posh conditions is ruining your burn, I think you might have a problem that extends beyond Burning Man. Once you're outside of camp, what conditions you return home to don't matter that much. The playa still has white-outs and wind storms and rain and all that jazzy shit.
As I said before, the PnP camps didn't ruin my burn. I actually had a great time at one of their bars. It was inviting and interactive. My concern is some PnP camps appear to be using more of a limited necessity than others... tickets. Is this the start of gentrification?

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Lonesomebri
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Lonesomebri » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:41 pm

Hell, I've lived in SF for over 30 years and gentrification has made everything better and cheaper and more down to earth,or it hasn't changed anything, nothing at all, working people and artist have not been moved out by anything, and even if it did, why should I care, I got mine? And if I even notice any change, that just shows me to be whiny and envious. That 30 year old stock option millionaire riding the private bus clogging the public bus stop and buying a condo that evicts dozens of working families is just like the old retiree or teacher or artist, all put on kilts one leg at a time. Can't wait til gentrification totally engulfs Burning Man.
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otakup0pe
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by otakup0pe » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:50 pm

This thread is totally ruining my burn.

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BBadger
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by BBadger » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:51 pm

Burners whining about privilege. Oh the irony.
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Cassidy9
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Cassidy9 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:22 pm

Am I missing something here? Just wondering, (as someone who would love to have a servant, though, I'd call him my PoolBoy...) how could you tell the people were servants? Anyone at a theme camp, doing assigned "chores", is technically a servant at some point, aren't they? If I cooked or cleaned at my camp, or MOOPed, or helped with setup or tear down, am I a servant? How do you know I'm getting paid, or not? I don't expect to, I'm just contributing the best I know how. Then, I go play, like everyone else. Are you assuming? Perhaps that person enjoys doing that sort of stuff, as opposed to being out in the blistering heat?

I'd also like to mention that there were lots of identical Wally bikes for "rent" on the Playa this year. Not sure how to get in on that, but that sure would have saved us some gas money, not hauling ours 900 miles out there (not everyone skips over from CA.) How does this happen? Do you consider that PnP?

P.S. I'll be looking for someone to pedal my bike next year... :lol:

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Jovankat
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Jovankat » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:10 pm

There are a number of options for hiring a bike the playa including Playa Bike Repair, Loop Cycles, Kiwanis Bikes, Hammer and Cyclery..

More info can be found here

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Sandstorm
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Sandstorm » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:05 pm

Damn. There's so many great new posts in this thread to which I want to reply/acknowledge.
Cassidy9 wrote:...I'd also like to mention that there were lots of identical Wally bikes for "rent" on the Playa this year. Not sure how to get in on that, but that sure would have saved us some gas money, not hauling ours 900 miles out there (not everyone skips over from CA.) How does this happen? Do you consider that PnP?...
I personally don't consider that PnP, just like I don;t consider the recently started burn-centric and burner founded and owned company Playa Pads to be PnP. In the past in Reno post-burn I've repeatedly watched the entire contents of box trucks be unloaded into the dumpsters at the parking lot where my friends and I returned the box trucks that we rented for the burn. For me playa bike and camping gear rentals help cut down on burn related waste and fuel consumption and that's a good thing.
Lonesomebri wrote:But complaining and bitching? That's how I Burn, baby.
Keep up the good work, Lonesomebri.
vargaso wrote:
Sandstorm wrote:vargaso: Is that Jack Lord in your profile photo?
Indeed, our Lord and Savior.
Amen! (Cue original "Hawaii Five-0" opening credits)
caffeineslinger wrote:...When one has servants out there they are using more than one ticket for themselves which are very limited as we all know. How many didn't get to go because someone didn't want to make their own lunch?
Yep. Exactly.
Nipple wrote:...This is some of the most argumentatively, vehemently agreeing with what the poster has said that I've seen.
:)
maladroit wrote:...The principles aren't commandments that you can break, but goals to work toward. Nobody "obeys" them all, or always makes forward progress on them. That doesn't mean it's hypocritical to point out someone who is actively dragging them backwards.
Well said.
Ano wrote:Not really, but you can read that if you want.
Good post.
caffeineslinger wrote:...I can make my own lunch. If I need an Air Lift I can't do it myself...

...As I said before, the PnP camps didn't ruin my burn. I actually had a great time at one of their bars. It was inviting and interactive. My concern is some PnP camps appear to ... ification?
Well said.
Lonesomebri wrote:Hell, I've lived in SF for over 30 years and gentrification has made everything better and cheaper and more down to earth,or it hasn't changed anything, nothing at all, working people and artist have not been moved out by anything, and even if it did, why should I care, I got mine? And if I even notice any change, that just shows me to be whiny and envious. That 30 year old stock option millionaire riding the private bus clogging the public bus stop and buying a condo that evicts dozens of working families is just like the old retiree or teacher or artist, all put on kilts one leg at a time. Can't wait til gentrification totally engulfs Burning Man.
I heart you, Lonesomebri.

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unjonharley
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:16 pm

Cassidy9 wrote:

I'd also like to mention that there were lots of identical Wally bikes for "rent" on the Playa this year. Not sure how to get in on that, but that sure would have saved us some gas money, not hauling ours 900 miles out there (not everyone skips over from CA.) How does this happen? Do you consider that PnP?

P.S. I'll be looking for someone to pedal my bike next year... :lol: [/color]
Those Identical Wally bikes ate up a large amount of "free" repair at bike camps..

You should not be able to $rent$ anything "on" the playa..
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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theCryptofishist
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:30 pm

Well, that's WallyWorld--Privatize the profit, socialize the cost.
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"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by GreyCoyote » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:47 pm

Cassidy9 wrote:Am I missing something here? Just wondering, (as someone who would love to have a servant, though, I'd call him my PoolBoy...) how could you tell the people were servants? Anyone at a theme camp, doing assigned "chores", is technically a servant at some point, aren't they? If I cooked or cleaned at my camp, or MOOPed, or helped with setup or tear down, am I a servant? How do you know I'm getting paid, or not? I don't expect to, I'm just contributing the best I know how. Then, I go play, like everyone else. Are you assuming? Perhaps that person enjoys doing that sort of stuff, as opposed to being out in the blistering heat?
I think the acid test is the capability to refuse. Example: I watched Elliot and his band of merry bike fixers reject a couple of "customers" who had brought junk bikes to the playa. These bikes were broken before they ever got loaded-up, but the owners expected "someone" to fix them and for free. Elliot and Company politely declined. Because they are NOT servants. Theirs was a labor of love, not contract.

Contrast this to someone who had been paid by someone else to fix bikes. There wouldnt have been any free will to reject those customers who had not bothered to prepare. There would be a contract to work.
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Sunbeam56
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Sunbeam56 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:14 pm

unjonharley wrote:
maladroit wrote:
I pay for my Radical Self-Reliance.. When rough roads blew a new tire.. I beckoned and a servant arrived to change the tire and pull me out of the pucker brush onto the road.. I also pay for Air Lift, Ambulance and Cremation.. Damn well expect a servant to snap shit when called.
I dont think that AAA roadside service is what is being discussed :) (rotflmAo)
Let GOOD win!

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digitalfuckboy
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by digitalfuckboy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:09 am

maladroit wrote:The kind of people who use plug-n-play camps have more reason to attend Burning Man than all of you who already "get it."

How much will each year on the playa change your outlook on life? A fraction of a percent?

For these PNP'ers, a week at Burning Man could turn their world upside down.

Not all of them will be affected, but some will climb out of their cocoon.
THIS IS EXACTLY EVERYTHING I EVER WANTED TO SAY ABOUT THIS THREAD.

..oh, and it's "amok" I believe. I hope nobody has already said that.
do not destroy what we have created; only what we have created to destroy

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Lonesomebri
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Lonesomebri » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:05 am

digitalfuckboy wrote:
maladroit wrote:The kind of people who use plug-n-play camps have more reason to attend Burning Man than all of you who already "get it."
How much will each year on the playa change your outlook on life? A fraction of a percent?
For these PNP'ers, a week at Burning Man could turn their world upside down.
Not all of them will be affected, but some will climb out of their cocoon.
THIS IS EXACTLY EVERYTHING I EVER WANTED TO SAY ABOUT THIS THREAD.
..oh, and it's "amok" I believe. I hope nobody has already said that.
And once more, it's all about what they can get. I don't "get it". Fuck them. Of course most Plug and Play participants will laugh at your notion that they need changing, and then do alittle segway dance in your face, but keep hope alive. As the Plug and Plays destroy sections of the city and the community, how much concern should I, or anyone, have that some of them will "get it", whatever that means, while the bulk make it worse? How about they concern themselves with helping us "get it"? The selfishness in this, evoked as enlightenment, is hilarious. Marie Antoinette tells them to eat cake, and they think, "How noble, if I had cake I would give it to her. Then she would 'get it', too bad the other peasants aren't as enlightened as me".
Cassidy9 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:22 pm P.S. I'll be looking for someone to pedal my bike next year... :lol
Ha, that's my whole gig, peddling people around on my chariot. Look me up, we can have a nice discussion about servants and their place.
Camp THREAT: Dominating the porta potties 4 years running.
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
- Voltaire, Candide

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gibson_
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by gibson_ » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:14 am

Here's what bothers me about the plug and play camps:

They're selling something that isn't theirs to sell. If it wasn't for the volunteers who build/run/strike the city, and the volunteers who come out there to build art, there would be nothing for these camps to sell.

Think about some of the huge art like embrace, or sound camps you see out on the playa. Those things are all coming out, for free, because the people involved in them just want to share.

Those things could ALL charge money. Think about how much it would cost tomorrowland, or some other EDM festival (which is honestly how I think the plug and players see Burning Man, as another EDM festival) to commission something like embrace. At Burning Man, those things just come out because the people building them are passionate about it.

When a plug and play camp starts making money off of those volunteers, they're selling something that wasn't theirs to sell.

Would anybody pay $10,000 or whatever a plug and play Burning Man vacation costs if they were going out there during June?

Of course not.

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