Plug n plays running amuk

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Lonesomebri
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Lonesomebri » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:40 pm

Postby littleflower » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:16 am.
littleflower wrote: do you have any proof that *all* of these camps abuse their workers? or just that one anonymous post?
sigh ....... I am upset about this. I posted this on facebook, too. as soon as I found it. it appears that the BMOrg has enough info to discipline mr. popsicle, and I hope it happens. this story is everywhere....
my problem is the ease with which some people use this very specific circumstance to demonize all Plug 'n Plays ..... and even capitalism in general.
Black Rock City is a capitalist success, whether you want to believe it or not. someone turned an inhospitable piece of fucking desert and made it an international vacation spot for 60,000 people........


I love how you don't use the quotes I used of yours above that I was responding to and actually quoted, but decided to use other ones below. I stick by my quotes....and yours.



littleflower wrote: I love how this - which I wrote before I had any idea that *allegedly* some board member created a for-profit camp and worked his employees to death -
I have no problem with people making money at burning man ..... who knows, it may be a great job ....
My problem is that all of these sherpas need a ticket, and available tickets are not plentiful.
it means that someone who really wants to go to Burning Man misses out because someone is WORKING, rather than being a participant.
I love the idea of kidnapping them ...........
somehow resulted in this silly tirade:
I quoted you. Call it bizarre. You did not like criticism of Plug and Plays, excused the bad because not all Plug and Plays were horrible, plus, complete information -the type that never arrives- is necessary to form any opinion...
lol .... really?
Well, at least WE got you posting on your FB page. Welcome to the movement.
you had nothing to do with it. I find it an interesting situation. that is all.
And Burning Man is an artistic success, a human success.... but we each worship in our own way. The Plug and Plays are inhospitable, created by capitalism, the desert is....well.......it ain't no rave......it's a desert.]
I agree .... burning man IS an artistic success, and a human success ... I believe that it is also a capitalist success. it doesn't have to be one or the other. this mess with the popsicle camp is just about assholes .... and they exist in every economic system, not just capitalism.

we are in complete agreement that the desert is a desert. :D
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
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Lonesomebri
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Lonesomebri » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:19 pm

We have on the board of the Burning Man Project people who want to promote and grow off-beat vacations and hotel, people whose job it is to increase festival attendance, and create a market for travel in order to make money. This is what they do for a living. They are okay with it. They actually believe that what they do to make money for themselves is creating a better world. How is it so hard for some people to understand this is what they plan for BRC? They started out on 9 and L and anyone with eyes and honesty could see. Somehow those camps got early entry, placed spots, a massively huge infrastructure moved in before gate, could guarantee tickets to clients while placed theme camps depended on targeted sales, and on and on and on, but never enough. There will never be the proof the born serfs are looking for, some sort of video of the board plotting with Holiday Inn, or whatever it is the apologists for the powerful are demanding. I found out the included information without even being a journalist or that smart. And it has nothing to do with the first hand account of SherpaGirl. Anyway, it’s a great start to the 2015 Burn.

"The good news is that festivals are big business."

http://www.burningmanproject.org/about/ ... BpU6Fd5HKc
“Hotel guru. Armchair psychologist. Traveling philosopher. Author. Speaker. Teacher. Student. Chip Conley has lived out more than one calling in his lifetime. No one has led the development, creation, and management of more boutique hotels than Chip Conley, founder and former CEO of Joie de Vivre (JDV). At age 26, Chip’s mission was to “create joy” by building a company that USA Today called “the most delightfully schizophrenic collection of hotels in America.” During his nearly 24 years as CEO, JDV grew to become the second largest boutique hotel company in America. (Chip is no longer an owner or leader of Joie de Vivre’s management business – now part of Commune Hotels – but remains a partner in several hotel properties.)”
Matt Goldberg was named Senior Vice President of Global Market Development at QVC, Inc. in October 2013. With more than 20 years of experience in global business development, new market expansion, strategy and operations, Goldberg is responsible for driving QVC’s overall global market expansion for the nearly $9 billion multichannel retail organization.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rakeshsharm ... festivals/
"In his talk about festivals, Conley leaves out the most important part about festivals. They are his latest venture…. The good news is that festivals are big business… These fest attendees are captive audiences for products and advertisers... Conley is currently global head of hospitality, at AirBnB, a website that allows people to rent out spare rooms…"
(and destroys one residential neighborhood at a time, turning it into hotel rentals.)
“The more virtual we get, the more ritual we need.” 
~ Chip Conley

http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/28/burnin ... hats-okay/
“Dubois tells me that tech people are welcome and bring in innovation. But she also admitted there was a certain VIP element happening. “That’s not okay,” she says. “It’s not in the spirit of Burning Man but we try to do what we can. Some people are just misinformed about what this is about. It’s hard for us to reach everyone.”

http://burners.me/2014/09/16/burning-ma ... ety-rules/
Board member violates the law and community standards, no big deal. It’s the board who do not get it. Seems like they would be easy to reach….

http://lustmonkey.wordpress.com/what-i- ... -and-play/
Halcyon sees the light, after first doing his duty defending the rot.

http://burners.me/2014/09/17/sander-van ... vid-at-bm/
And why not
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by robrob » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:13 pm

i just wanted to say fLOL @ "Pink Jesus" :D

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by littleflower » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:19 pm

Elderberry wrote:
kiboy wrote:But not yours? :wink:
Hey, lots of mine rank right up there too! :shock:
Mine too! :lol:

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by kiboy » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:14 am

OK just wanted to get that straight. Carry on with the nonsense now. :P

Don't believe everything you think.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Lonesomebri » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:33 pm

I am curious as to chain of information that led to eplaya directing campers over to the 3 o'clock side prior to the burn. I remember a post stating that the 9 side had been filling up in recent years, while the 3 side, with it's dustier roads had space, and that people should seriously consider the 3 side this year. Where did this suggestion originate? It does not look as if the people behind those huge camps really cared about moving to 3 and L, yet they are the ones filling up the 9 side, so who was that message directed at? It almost seems like part of the plot to clear us norms out of 9, to make room for the paying customers, while dancing like it's for "the community".
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?"
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Elderberry » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:24 pm

It didnt originate on eplaya. If I recall correctly it was in an email I received. Maybe from placement or JRS? And that didn't really surprise me either. The 9:00 side has always been more popular. At least since I've been attending.
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:52 pm

My reading of the various sources is that the sherpagirl camp was way out of the norm. I believe the BMORG spends energy on acculturating the commercial camps with ambassadors. I think more effort by the BMORG and the camps is needed in future years. I think the board member involved picked the wrong person for the sherpagirl camp and was not supervising it closely enough. In Japan, he would resign, in America he would just fire the manager. I think he should stay on the board and be given the responsibility along with CC and a normal long time-burner to avoid more repeats.

All the various sources, FB, ePlaya, Reddit, burners.me are very shrill. The issue needs to be solved because it is bad publicity for Burning Man. I don't think burners with pitchforks at the event helps, I think it makes the problem worse.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by kiboy » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:01 pm

I hope that's how it is. One big fuckup. Shit like that can happen anywhere and what makes me think it's only one big fuck up is that not many others have come forward with tales of woe.

What is still of concern for me is special treatment for these P&Ps with placement or maybe other things. Like I said earlier. I don't care if they are 1% rich, as long as they're fun.

Don't believe everything you think.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Nipple » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:08 pm

Why shouldn't they get placement?

I think it's perfectly appropriate for them to get placement, and it isn't like they were on Esplanade.

Also: Why shouldn't they get access to directed sales tickets like other placed theme camps?

I think the innuendo here is that they received several hundred presale invites. We don't know that. We can infer and guess, but no one has said anything to confirm or deny.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by kiboy » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:13 pm

I agree with you. IF they really are a theme camp. Hell I'll party with them if they're cool. My bias is against assholes in particular not the rich. I really didn't know they were all theme camps. I've been out of the loop for some years.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Eric » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:35 pm

Lonesomebri wrote:I am curious as to chain of information that led to eplaya directing campers over to the 3 o'clock side prior to the burn. I remember a post stating that the 9 side had been filling up in recent years, while the 3 side, with it's dustier roads had space, and that people should seriously consider the 3 side this year. Where did this suggestion originate?
The suggestion probably originated from the facts on the ground - the 3:00 side is dustier, and has been less dense than the 9:00 side in recent years. Regardless of the conspiracies you're creating in your head, Placement seems to be thinking long & hard about how to spread out camps, and how to make "dead" spaces become areas where people want to be. Just look at their changes to the 6:00 sector this year - that has always been a dead zone, and this year it was quite lively, at least during my random visits.*



*Of course, by disagreeing with the Conspiracy Theory of the Week (and by dint of being a Mod), I'm probably assumed to just be an "apologist". Whatever.
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by dana » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:40 pm

Nipple wrote:Why shouldn't they get placement?

I think it's perfectly appropriate for them to get placement, and it isn't like they were on Esplanade.

Also: Why shouldn't they get access to directed sales tickets like other placed theme camps?

I think the innuendo here is that they received several hundred presale invites. We don't know that. We can infer and guess, but no one has said anything to confirm or deny.
I haven't been for several years so I don't have much of a clue how things are really shifting on the ground, so to speak. But my first hearing of this came from a guy I know posting a story about some folks trying to check out the PNP's and immediately getting unpleasantly shut out - allegedly 'body guards' even??
I read the bit someone posted about gentrification. Not so sure about that argument. But one paranoid imagining that came to me is river running on the Grand Canyon. It gradually became big business and now the commercial companies own something like 90% of user days and that is mostly made up of folks jumping onto one of those huge J-rig pontoon boats with motors cruising down the canyon, having someone set everything up and cook, etc so they really aren't terribly involved except as some spectator along for the ride. If you are a private boater that wants to take a small group down and really get immersed in the incredible beauty and magic of the canyon, good luck getting one of the private permits. People wait years. So the character changes for the worse purely because money talks the loudest.

So less and less real participation, less art, insular camps, commodification.... Will all that really take over BM? Or are we just being paranoid?

For me I've always felt like I would only go to BM a relatively few times total, that sooner or later the pleasure in it would be overwhelmed by the weirdness. And part of the weirdness seems to be excessive growth. (I probably would have loved it back in the old 'drive-by shooting range' days....)
I'll go at least once more, and just see I guess.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by maladroit » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:13 pm

dana wrote:I haven't been for several years so I don't have much of a clue how things are really shifting on the ground, so to speak. But my first hearing of this came from a guy I know posting a story about some folks trying to check out the PNP's and immediately getting unpleasantly shut out - allegedly 'body guards' even??
This did happen to two of my camp members (out of 15) in separate locations...they weren't even trying to check it out, just wandering through large open space not realizing it was a camp and getting converged upon and nearly physically ejected after a battery of questions demanding their purpose.

It was not this camp from 2014 (too good a job at walling off) but as an example...you use a dozen RVs to wall off a space big enough to hold 40 RVs or 100 tents, then hire people to protect your land?
Image

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by kiboy » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:11 pm

I really don't know what to think beyond the fact that this thread is depressing. :P I'm going to have to get there next year and do some investigative reporting. I'm willing to use up about 45 minutes of my burn to find the truth. Be cause....... IT'S OUT THERE!

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by lucky420 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:40 pm

maladroit wrote:
dana wrote:I haven't been for several years so I don't have much of a clue how things are really shifting on the ground, so to speak. But my first hearing of this came from a guy I know posting a story about some folks trying to check out the PNP's and immediately getting unpleasantly shut out - allegedly 'body guards' even??
This did happen to two of my camp members (out of 15) in separate locations...they weren't even trying to check it out, just wandering through large open space not realizing it was a camp and getting converged upon and nearly physically ejected after a battery of questions demanding their purpose.

It was not this camp from 2014 (too good a job at walling off) but as an example...you use a dozen RVs to wall off a space big enough to hold 40 RVs or 100 tents, then hire people to protect your land?
Image

This was the camp directly kitty corner from us. TK and I did breach the fortress though we also had 2 pitchers of tasty frozen margaritas with us. Gave out margaritas to 4 beautiful young woman from New York. They were nice and also excited. We also gave one to a very handsome young man who was building the entrance to their workshop area. This area was not in the fortress area, you can see it just outside of. They also had a little stand to the side where you could make a magic wand. For the most part of that week I thought it said "magic wants". That was the extent of our interactions. The rest of the time it was just a big ol wall of nada but RV sides. But there was LOTS of other shiny stuff & awesome people on our street to play with.
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by kiboy » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:10 pm

lucky420 wrote:
maladroit wrote:
dana wrote:I haven't been for several years so I don't have much of a clue how things are really shifting on the ground, so to speak. But my first hearing of this came from a guy I know posting a story about some folks trying to check out the PNP's and immediately getting unpleasantly shut out - allegedly 'body guards' even??
This did happen to two of my camp members (out of 15) in separate locations...they weren't even trying to check it out, just wandering through large open space not realizing it was a camp and getting converged upon and nearly physically ejected after a battery of questions demanding their purpose.

It was not this camp from 2014 (too good a job at walling off) but as an example...you use a dozen RVs to wall off a space big enough to hold 40 RVs or 100 tents, then hire people to protect your land?
Image

This was the camp directly kitty corner from us. TK and I did breach the fortress though we also had 2 pitchers of tasty frozen margaritas with us. Gave out margaritas to 4 beautiful young woman from New York. They were nice and also excited. We also gave one to a very handsome young man who was building the entrance to their workshop area. This area was not in the fortress area, you can see it just outside of. They also had a little stand to the side where you could make a magic wand. For the most part of that week I thought it said "magic wants". That was the extent of our interactions. The rest of the time it was just a big ol wall of nada but RV sides. But there was LOTS of other shiny stuff & awesome people on our street to play with.
Maybe they were circling the wagons in case of indian attack. It is the wild west you know.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Jackass » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:41 pm


Placement seems to be thinking long & hard about how to spread out camps, and how to make "dead" spaces become areas where people want to be. Just look at their changes to the 6:00 sector this year - that has always been a dead zone, and this year it was quite lively, at least during my random visits.

They could have placed them at 6'oclock dead center, so that all may bear witness. Instead of trying to hide them from the majority of the populace... Or as you mentioned at 3oclock, they need more residents on that side right? Give them a big assed chunk of land.
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Bless » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:55 pm

The two o clock side was so lumpy this year. Oy vey. Stick 'em over there.
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Bless » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:00 pm

My one gripe about the K St. neighborhood was the seeming lack of available portojohns. I exited Pink Mammoth one day and had to relieve myself quite bad. Took me about fifteen minutes to locate the proper facilities. I don't know if it's their fault, but I blame the P'n'Ps anyways.
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Partypants » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:52 am

Isn't a motorized trash fence within the orange trash fence redundant, and thus duplicating the original trash fence twice, making it in essence a trash fence within a trash fence, while ultimately creating what one could only call a trash fence squared?
I love the smell of bacon on the playa. It smells like.......victory.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Partypants » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:03 am

Prereflections... In a few years when the 1%ers can't get enough tickets because the sherpas of the sherpas are getting most of the tickets to help the sherpas set up the p&ps, we'll all look back on these times of innocence and growth and have a good chuckle.
I love the smell of bacon on the playa. It smells like.......victory.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by dana » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:40 am

lucky420 wrote: TK and I did breach the fortress though we also had 2 pitchers of tasty frozen margaritas with us.
Ah yes, a time tested method of breaching the castle walls...

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by graidawg » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:58 am

some seeing eye wrote: I don't think burners with pitchforks at the event helps, I think it makes the problem worse.
actually that is what we want.
let me explain, first if you try and be reasonable people and business don't listen, they pretend to then carry on as normal. they listen to the ranting mob threatening them, at least enough to make them go away until the next time.
secondly it threatens the income stream, we pay for this thing we go to, they do the paperwork and make a profit because we go. if they get bad press about how its ruined because of policy - that 40% of people that are thinking of going next year and have not been before may not bother. sure most of the rest will still go, and will continue to go until it really is disney in the desert. but losing up to 40% of your income potentially is one hell of a way to motivate changing policy.

turnkey camps are here to stay - lets at least make sure they have to put the oven on for dinner after they turn the key to get in

sorry i really was finished with commenting. i'll try again.
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Partypants » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:12 am

Pitchforks seem a mite Frankensteinesque. May I suggest our art community doing some nice murals on their otherwise artless fiberglass fences? Perhaps a simple gift of a table with some spray paints and a sign saying please help beautify us!
I love the smell of bacon on the playa. It smells like.......victory.

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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:17 am

Less than 5% will say they are not going.. The others go to Burning Man to get there burn.. Other will be new to BM and don't care..After a few years the old burners will stop going.. The new burners will accept the (now) as the norm.

Your rant will have been all in vain..
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by vargaso » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:14 am

Lonesomebri wrote:I am curious as to chain of information that led to eplaya directing campers over to the 3 o'clock side prior to the burn. I remember a post stating that the 9 side had been filling up in recent years, while the 3 side, with it's dustier roads had space, and that people should seriously consider the 3 side this year. Where did this suggestion originate? It does not look as if the people behind those huge camps really cared about moving to 3 and L, yet they are the ones filling up the 9 side, so who was that message directed at? It almost seems like part of the plot to clear us norms out of 9, to make room for the paying customers, while dancing like it's for "the community".
I saw the announcement on the Burning Man traffic Twitter account on Tues. I couldn't believe it had already filled up. Or any area had "filled up."


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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:24 am

Burners with torches is right and natural and just.
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by Elderberry » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:29 am

Vandalizing someone else's property is never a good idea.
Partypants wrote:Pitchforks seem a mite Frankensteinesque. May I suggest our art community doing some nice murals on their otherwise artless fiberglass fences? Perhaps a simple gift of a table with some spray paints and a sign saying please help beautify us!
JK
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Re: Plug n plays running amuk

Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:29 am

theCryptofishist wrote:Burners with torches is right and natural and just.
Take care Fishy.. Some one could change the first letter of you diescription and your smoked fish..
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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