Bad burners at SF decom!

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TheMuse
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Bad burners at SF decom!

Post by TheMuse » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:48 am

As we were breaking down our camp this year at the SF decompression party, I was surprised and disgusted at the amount of litter on the street! It looked like the parking lot after a Raiders game. In some places I literally had to wade through trash left on the street. Come on people! Bring the LNT ethic home with you and live it all the time.
Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip around the sun every year.

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YerNotDaBossOMe
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Post by YerNotDaBossOMe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:51 am

We had the same thing at the LA Decom. However, you gotta factor in that there were a lot of non-burners who heard about "some wild street party" and came down with all thier Frat buddies.
There...I said it and I'm glad!

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Ivy
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Post by Ivy » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:57 am

We had the same thing at the LA Decom
I spent almost 20 minutes at LA Decom (tm) looking for a trash can. I found one cardboard box marked recycle. I never found a trash can.

It'd be nice, but i don't really expect everyone in the city to pack out their trash. I suggest an improvement for the future might be to make more (any) trash cans available.

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playasnake
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Post by playasnake » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:18 pm

YerNotDaBossOMe wrote:We had the same thing at the LA Decom.
we had the same thing on the playa.
e pluribus unimog

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YerNotDaBossOMe
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Post by YerNotDaBossOMe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:27 pm

I agree, Ivy, and will pass that point along. I too hunted for trash cans and could find none.

Those cardboard recycle boxes became nothing but trash cans in the long run. After all the rain, they kinda discintegrated. Which was just as well, because by the end of the night we found out that we had no way to process the recyclables, and they all went into the dumpster anyway.

One interesting problem we faced was finding big piles of trash right beside the recylables cans. We found out that it was the local homeless population digging for cans and bottles. Needless to say the system didn't work like we had hoped.
There...I said it and I'm glad!

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:59 pm

YerNotDaBossOMe wrote:One interesting problem we faced was finding big piles of trash right beside the recylables cans. We found out that it was the local homeless population digging for cans and bottles. Needless to say the system didn't work like we had hoped.
Sounds like the kernal of a solution for next year....

actiongrl
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Post by actiongrl » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:05 pm

I tried handing many people a trash bag to help clean up on their way out, and they looked at me like I was purple.

Next year, perhaps the solution is to have more people handing out bags and helping the clueless to understand that it's the norm to clean up after ourselves there. I think a lot of people just thought I was some kind of crazy person.

blyslv
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Post by blyslv » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:18 pm

actiongrl wrote:I think a lot of people just thought I was some kind of crazy person.
Well they might have a point!

<smootches>

I very much regret missing SF decom(tm), but I am glad to have slept 16 hours.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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rodent
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Post by rodent » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:26 pm

actiongrl wrote: Next year, perhaps the solution is to have more people handing out bags and helping the clueless to understand that it's the norm to clean up after ourselves there.
Perhaps this is something that the themecamp contingents can do. They are the largest face of BM durring decom.

But mainly, it's education, education, education! Inform people at the door, on the JRS, on various bbs's, to people you randomly bump into...

---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

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YerNotDaBossOMe
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Post by YerNotDaBossOMe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:36 pm

But mainly, it's education, education, education! Inform people at the door, on the JRS, on various bbs's, to people you randomly bump into...
I agree. I worked the front door and we could have mentioned it to everybody as they walked in. But as Ivy pointed out, there was a real shortage of trash cans. And I only recall seeing three dumpsters, two of which were up front.
There...I said it and I'm glad!

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:08 pm

actiongrl wrote:I tried handing many people a trash bag to help clean up on their way out, and they looked at me like I was purple.

Next year, perhaps the solution is to have more people handing out bags and helping the clueless to understand that it's the norm to clean up after ourselves there. I think a lot of people just thought I was some kind of crazy person.
Maybe you would have better luck if you were carrying that pump shotgun your Avatar is carrying...

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Rabbi Dali Rick
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.......I was standing there all purple and stuff when.......

Post by Rabbi Dali Rick » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:13 pm

I got one word for you....

"GATEGREETERS"

espousing the leave no trace ethic

crysanthiumly,
the rebbi

blyslv
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Re: .......I was standing there all purple and stuff when...

Post by blyslv » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:36 pm

Rabbi Dali Rick wrote:I got one word for you....

"GATEGREETERS"

espousing the leave no trace ethic

crysanthiumly,
the rebbi
Technically, that's seven, but I'm willing to let it slide.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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geekster
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Post by geekster » Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:06 pm

actiongrl wrote:I tried handing many people a trash bag to help clean up on their way out, and they looked at me like I was purple.

Next year, perhaps the solution is to have more people handing out bags and helping the clueless to understand that it's the norm to clean up after ourselves there. I think a lot of people just thought I was some kind of crazy person.
Maybe a bag on teh way IN might be an idea? Or possibly bags placed at well marked various places around the event? But we took your bags ... we MOOPed. Even if you wouldn't take any of our jerky :lol:
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Badger
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Post by Badger » Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:30 pm

A deposit.

Have a deposit and give it back to them if they leave the event with a bag of trash and/or a passed out raver.
Desert dogs drink deep.

Anthony Bondi
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Lmao

Post by Anthony Bondi » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:37 pm

Ravers definately are'nt recyclable. Lmao

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Re: Lmao

Post by Sandwichman » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:21 pm

Anthony Bondi wrote:Ravers definately are'nt recyclable. Lmao
I am sure you cannot drop them at the dump either.....too many chemicals
oonsa oonsa for your feets [url=http://www.djjasonphilips.com/mixes/mixes_files/La_musica_que_no_tacara_usted_quiere_que_tio_corte.mp3]click here[/url]

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samtzu
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Re: Lmao

Post by samtzu » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:42 pm

Sandwichman wrote:
Anthony Bondi wrote:Ravers definately are'nt recyclable. Lmao
I am sure you cannot drop them at the dump either.....too many chemicals
We used to through them in gullys to prevent erosion....
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer

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samtzu
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Post by samtzu » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:43 pm

THROW! GODDAMIT... THROW!!! ... could use an edit button here!!
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer

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mars
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Post by mars » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:18 pm

I picked up an entire COSTUME worth of moop on my way out of the SF Decom! If you spot me on the playa wearing your clothes (some awesome handmade hats and scarves as well as some cool ribbons along with general crap and trash that I picked up on the street at 1 a.m.) you're gonna get a big finger waggin' from me and it's gonna take a lot of sweet talk and other potential favors for you to get this stuff back!

I was shocked by how much crap (and good stuff!) was laying all over the street! I agree, education was lacking...I guess not everyone there completed kindergarten!

Mars

P.S. When we arrived at our camp on the playa this year, we found all kinds of mini moop where, presumably, no one had camped since last year...that was kinda depressing. But when we left...there was absolutely no trace of our existance and we were proud.
Live as if everyone loves you and thinks you look great. Dance as if no one is watching.

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:48 pm

The problem with handing out garbage bags to participants on the way in is that there's a high to staggering probability of the bags themselves becoming part of the garbage stream. And not as containers, either.

It's not the Burners who are doing it — we know better — nobody has to preach to Burners to clean up after themselves. It's the bozos who are coming looking for a "wild Burning Man party." Read: slack-jawed clueless and lazy. So lazy that they couldn't even be bothered to get a keg and some glowsticks together and drive out to the desert, that's why they come to Decompression. They think it's Burning Man without the effort.

Personally I didn't use the port-a-potties but I'll bet anything there was a boatload of everything-besides-shit-piss-and-tp in those things. We get it at the banks of port-o-lets at the Eugene Saturday Market. Clueless laziness happens...

The suggestion to have trash cans readily accessible sounds like the best solution so far, maybe even recycling containers as well.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

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tonytohono
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My take minus three pennies...

Post by tonytohono » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:05 pm

diane o'thirst wrote:Personally I didn't use the port-a-potties...
Well, no wonder you're diane o'thirst... I mean you need to drink before you can pee. And if you have to pee, well, then you have to use the potty. lol

All I know is I walked out with more trash than I walked in with.

Everyone needs to face it... the scene at the Decom is the party, without the aura. It's never gonna come close. People giving the stuff away up on the playa are making a profit at decom. At that point it changes it all. There needs to be trash receptacles of some sort.

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cornelius
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Post by cornelius » Sun Oct 24, 2004 1:00 am

It's the city people who've never been. Ya can't blame them, they live in trash all the time. They don't even notice it. They think somebody will come along and pick up after them. They suck. It's their city. We're on their turf jonny. That's the way they do it, see?
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Post by technopatra » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:59 am

Hey all- I've been really preoccupied with trying to brainstorm website education solutions to the bad behavior issue, so I am stoked to see this thread alive and kicking wit such good ideas.

What I noticed both here and on the playa:

I saw some bad moop behavior from veteran burners as well as newbies. The newbies have an (admittedly lame) excuse - they are new and may not have had it beat it into them on the several fronts I did when I was new - my friends, the greeters, everyone I every talked to my first year.

Those veteran burners seem to fall into 3 main categories:
-those that feel a sense of "well dammit we're going to be the ones to clean it up anyway"
-"I'm taking care of MY stuff, so screw those other guys"
-those that are good on the playa but revert to regular city behavior back home.

I had one who shall remain nameless tell me it was ok to toss my cigarette butts in the street because we have street cleaning here. He was trying to be nice, lettingme know I didn't have to dig thorugh my overstuffed back to find a receptacle.

I think I missed an opportunity to restate that no, it doesn't matter if there is street cleaning, a lot of what hits the ground still ends up in the sewers and then the Bay. Instead I just laughed and kept digging for a receptacle until I found an empty pack I coud use.

Can I claim 100% success with my own LNT back home? No way. We are creatures of habit and community. If my community is no longer commenting on my habits, I don't change. I literally forget as the behavior of tossing a butt into the street was habit of 13 years before I heard of LNT or Burning Man.

I guess my point is that we will never get to a point where we can stop educating ourselves - it has to happen at every event, every communication. I think we have to take a very pro-propaganda stance both internally and out.

Rabbi, your point about the gategreeters is a good one. Why didn't we think about that for SF Decom? Is it because the Flambe organizers jut didn't have time to think outside of the more basic event details because they had a shorter time to plan it this year? Have we ever had that at Decom? Have we just assumed the responsibility of Cleanup because we assume that we can't educate new folks on the spot?

I don't mean this as a criticism of the Decom organizers, at all. I know most of them and know how serioulsy they take the cleanup effort. I think we have an opportunity to re-examine what we do and don't do as far as promotion of our ethos off-playa.

People don't question the behavior they are used to. We have to keep this in mind and knwo that it will always be a challenge.

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Alpha
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Post by Alpha » Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:13 am

tp, sorry to hear about your overstuffed back. I think they have a procedure for that now. ;-)

Seriously, I think a couple of dumpsters near the decom exits would go a long way toward getting people to put it where it belongs. Except, in my opinion, for cigarette butts -- this is a huge peeve of mine, I must have seen a thousand butts hit the streets in my lifetime. I'll never forget my Japanese roommate in college, who neatly tucked each butt into his fanny-pack. I don't know why Americans think it's their right to sully the streets, sidewalks and parks and I can't imagine what will make those people decide to change.

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:50 am

Hey all- I've been really preoccupied with trying to brainstorm website education solutions to the bad behavior issue,
I can only hope that this represents a small effort surrounding a much bigger issue that some folks in the office are finally getting around to addressing.

Call it indoctrinating, brainwashing, peer pressure, re-education camp, what-the-hell-ever... I'm just glad that an attempt is being made to use the board (hopefully) as a launch platform bigger things than just another version of the virtual ALT.CUDDLE bullshit that it seems to be creeping towards. You know, the kind of stuff that pops up when people confuse a BBS for a chat room and you get all sorts of lame threads generated that other people have to wade through because no ability to edit or ignore. Yeah, I know, if I don't like it maybe I shouldn't read it but you gotta admit it is starting to get lame around here. That's not to point fingers at any one person here BTW.
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Zulegoona
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Post by Zulegoona » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:20 pm

Badger wrote:
Hey all- I've been really preoccupied with trying to brainstorm website education solutions to the bad behavior issue,
I can only hope that this represents a small effort surrounding a much bigger issue that some folks in the office are finally getting around to addressing.

Call it indoctrinating, brainwashing, peer pressure, re-education camp, what-the-hell-ever... I'm just glad that an attempt is being made to use the board (hopefully) as a launch platform bigger things than just another version of the virtual ALT.CUDDLE bullshit that it seems to be creeping towards. You know, the kind of stuff that pops up when people confuse a BBS for a chat room and you get all sorts of lame threads generated that other people have to wade through because no ability to edit or ignore. Yeah, I know, if I don't like it maybe I shouldn't read it but you gotta admit it is starting to get lame around here. That's not to point fingers at any one person here BTW.
As someone who frequents the social threads, I feel they play a part in community development on e-playa. Particularly for those of us living in the hinterland. I try to add my voice to topic threads as well. I also try to direct others to the social thread as an attempt to broaden the inclusive environment of the board in general. I admit those threads can get goofy, but they do serve to create connections between people and to me that is the heart of community.

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Isotopia
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Post by Isotopia » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:54 pm

See 'Case Studies'

The idea has been broadened somewhat and has a few more specifics.

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mars
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Post by mars » Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:11 pm

Those veteran burners seem to fall into 3 main categories:
-those that feel a sense of "well dammit we're going to be the ones to clean it up anyway"
-"I'm taking care of MY stuff, so screw those other guys"
-those that are good on the playa but revert to regular city behavior back home.
-Those that wear costumes that fall apart/off as they get more intoxicated and it itsn't till the next event that they say, "Where's my hat/scarf/bell/necklace/glitter tie thing", etc...all of which Mars will be wearing on the playa next year.
Live as if everyone loves you and thinks you look great. Dance as if no one is watching.

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:46 am

I solved my own LNT problem by not going at all. I really don't feel that my off-the-playa time needs to be mediated by a gaggle of overly cheerful party organizers and joiners. The real event is plenty crowded and noisy enough, and I've seen better costumes at frat parties & Raiders games.

But I'm sure one more pool of steaming green vomit in the Indiana St gutter wasn't missed anyway.

I think the overall LNT problem comes from the event marketing itself as a party. You put it in the media, and on the Internet, sell tickets to any culture whore who comes along, and design theme camps around the model of a carnival midway, and you just have to deal with the consequences.
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