Sob story

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Doctor VonBacon
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Re: Sob story

Post by Doctor VonBacon » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:09 am

Elderberry wrote:Next you'll be telling people what they can and cannot buy with their food stamps. No steak and lobster for you!
Sadly, I have seen a woman in a fur coat and all sparkly with diamonds pay for a case of lobster with an EBT card. Out of curiosity I followed her to the parking lot where she got in her Mercedes SUV and drove off.

I was too dumbfounded (and saddened) to say anything.
I like eggs.

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Re: Sob story

Post by apprehensive » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:07 am

Thank you everyone for the responses.

To Maladriot, in particular, I didn't respond previously precisely because I've found it so difficult to know how to do so. At least constructively. I've written responses, and then edited them, and then edited them some more. But to little avail. You are off base, though.

My original post was little more than a vent. The title of it being largely tongue in cheek. All of the mistakes were my own and I have no one to blame for them but myself. Because of them, however, my trip turned into something of an unmitigated disaster, from start to finish. Which is a pity because this was a major trip for me. I was looking forward to it.

I met some wonderful people at the event and leaving aside all the unpleasantness, this somehow made it worthwhile.

Again, thank you.

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theCryptofishist
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Re: Sob story

Post by theCryptofishist » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:15 pm

Doctor VonBacon wrote:
Elderberry wrote:Next you'll be telling people what they can and cannot buy with their food stamps. No steak and lobster for you!
Sadly, I have seen a woman in a fur coat and all sparkly with diamonds pay for a case of lobster with an EBT card. Out of curiosity I followed her to the parking lot where she got in her Mercedes SUV and drove off.

I was too dumbfounded (and saddened) to say anything.
Just want to remind everyone that SNAP (or whatever it's called this decade) has a much lower fraud rate than other government programs, such as military contracting.
The Lady with a Lamprey

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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Re: Sob story

Post by ygmir » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:35 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Doctor VonBacon wrote:
Elderberry wrote:Next you'll be telling people what they can and cannot buy with their food stamps. No steak and lobster for you!
Sadly, I have seen a woman in a fur coat and all sparkly with diamonds pay for a case of lobster with an EBT card. Out of curiosity I followed her to the parking lot where she got in her Mercedes SUV and drove off.

I was too dumbfounded (and saddened) to say anything.
Just want to remind everyone that SNAP (or whatever it's called this decade) has a much lower fraud rate than other government programs, such as military contracting.
does that mean the fraud is ok?
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Re: Sob story

Post by theCryptofishist » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:53 pm

No, I'm not saying that. However, I hate poor bashing, and it's not SNAP (or whatever) that's sucking up so much of the country's money.
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Re: Sob story

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:08 pm

It's all a matter of perspective.

I consider myself an individual of principles. I disagree with many of the fundamental ideas behind things like taxes and governments, yet every day I make decisions and moral compromises to make my life and pursuit of happiness flow a little smoother. Drivers licenses and other assortments of official documentia fit this bill.

Personally, I get a little upset at times when I think about my tax dollars spent on killing people... while I just can't give even one fuck about food stamp fraud and begin to pretend it's a serious issue.. but that's just me...

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Re: Sob story

Post by Elderberry » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:13 pm

Doctor VonBacon wrote:
Elderberry wrote:Next you'll be telling people what they can and cannot buy with their food stamps. No steak and lobster for you!
Sadly, I have seen a woman in a fur coat and all sparkly with diamonds pay for a case of lobster with an EBT card. Out of curiosity, I followed her to the parking lot where she got in her Mercedes SUV and drove off.

I was too dumbfounded (and saddened) to say anything.
That's a rare exception. And, might even be fraud. Though to qualify for food stamps you don't have to sell your car or your clothes. All that counts is how much you are making, how much you have in the bank and how much property you own.
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Re: Sob story

Post by ygmir » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:09 pm

sometimes, people by foodstamps from people who get them for fractions of value when they need/want cash...
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Re: Sob story

Post by Elderberry » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:33 am

ygmir wrote:sometimes, people by foodstamps from people who get them for fractions of value when they need/want cash...
Also illegal--both to buy them and to sell them.
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Re: Sob story

Post by BBadger » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:55 am

If you ever see the out-of-place tub of baby formula at an Asian market, that's usually WIC-sourced since you can only purchase certain things.

Still, despite some abuse, the programs help relieve some aspects of poverty and really doesn't cost that much. It's a lot more useful than, say, housing an inmate in a prison to the tune of more than poverty-level income per year, or end-of-life healthcare for the elderly (artificially living well past your expiration date is expensive!), or the LIT program.
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Re: Sob story

Post by skippy3k » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:15 am

I'm not seeing the "poor bashing" here. I just see a good question on how a person who qualified for a LIT can make so many international flights and other travel arrangements. Repeatedly.
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Re: Sob story

Post by ygmir » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:46 am

Elderberry wrote:
ygmir wrote:sometimes, people by foodstamps from people who get them for fractions of value when they need/want cash...
Also illegal--both to buy them and to sell them.
ah, well, then of course, it must not happen. After all, if we make something illegal, no one will do it.
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maladroit
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Re: Sob story

Post by maladroit » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:44 am

apprehensive wrote:To Maladriot, in particular, I didn't respond previously precisely because I've found it so difficult to know how to do so. At least constructively. I've written responses, and then edited them, and then edited them some more. But to little avail. You are off base, though.
What am I off base about specifically? I agree that there's probably no easy way to frame "I have plenty of money but got a low income ticket."

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Re: Sob story

Post by apprehensive » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:07 am

You're making very large assumptions about me based on pretty limited information.

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Re: Sob story

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:26 am

skippy3k wrote:I'm not seeing the "poor bashing" here. I just see a good question on how a person who qualified for a LIT can make so many international flights and other travel arrangements. Repeatedly.
I didn't see poor bashing either, in fact, but my experience of national politics--and the poor bashing there--sets off all my klaxons when stories about people seeing other people apparently committing welfare fraud surface.
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Re: Sob story

Post by Elderberry » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:03 pm

ygmir wrote:
Elderberry wrote:
ygmir wrote:sometimes, people by foodstamps from people who get them for fractions of value when they need/want cash...
Also illegal--both to buy them and to sell them.
ah, well, then of course, it must not happen. After all, if we make something illegal, no one will do it.
Missed my point. Of course it happens. Slightly less than 2% of all the people on public assistance cheat that way to get there. Which is more than 3% below the average amount of fraud that is considered as a cost of doing business in this country by both government and private businesses.

There are exceptions to the above--during Hurricane Katrina there was well over 25% of fraudulent claims--though a large percentage of that fraud was committed by the people administering the program, not the recipients. Another big chunk was attributed to contractors that ripped off lots of people trying to use their assistance to get their homes rebuilt.

Additionally, the people on welfare (food stamps now called SNAP for Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program) that do commit fraud tend to do it big time. Like the gal that was collecting on 60 non-existent children, or the one that had 30 some aliases that were each collecting. (And probably that example mentioned above with the lady buying the case of lobster and carting it out to her Bentley or whatever car it was.) They all make for good stories.

Some of those stories, like the free cell phone, are just out and out bull shit. That "program" never existed.

What I'm saying that those that do cheat should be reported and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It is those 2% that give the other 98% of the people that actually need the assistance a bad name.

Disclaimer: My figures might be slightly off depending on where you get your information and for what years. Most of the above was from memory, but the numbers quoted are most probably accurate enough to give an actually fair portrayal of welfare fraud and who is committing it.
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Re: Sob story

Post by BBadger » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:51 pm

apprehensive wrote:You're making very large assumptions about me based on pretty limited information.
Then what is the real picture here?

The facts stated were:
- August 30: You were planning to take an international flight from Scotland to San Francisco, but misbooked and your ticket was non-refundable.
- You booked a second international flight from London to San Francisco -- on short notice no less -- and arrived in the States. The cheapest price I could come up with for a flight from LHR to LAX -- with the optimal 1-month pre-booking, leave on a Sunday, on a Tuesday-- is about $730 round trip. For SFO it was around $780.
- However, you missed that flight (let's assume the airlines allowed a fee-less transfer), flew to LA instead, and had to rent a car ($70/week) and drive to BRC. Driving direct would add about 200 miles to the journey each way.
- You paid for a ticket at the Will Call implying that you received a LIT ticket.

An LIT ticket saves a person about $200 off the price of a full ticket. It seems, however, that you had few financial difficulties in securing alternative means of travel when problems occurred, even when companies like Delta were not willing to work with you to do it. I applaud your resilience, but how is it that someone of your means qualifies -- not just on paper -- for a LIT?
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Re: Sob story

Post by ygmir » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:17 pm

BBadger wrote:
apprehensive wrote:You're making very large assumptions about me based on pretty limited information.
Then what is the real picture here?

The facts stated were:
- August 30: You were planning to take an international flight from Scotland to San Francisco, but misbooked and your ticket was non-refundable.
- You booked a second international flight from London to San Francisco -- on short notice no less -- and arrived in the States. The cheapest price I could come up with for a flight from LHR to LAX -- with the optimal 1-month pre-booking, leave on a Sunday, on a Tuesday-- is about $730 round trip. For SFO it was around $780.
- However, you missed that flight (let's assume the airlines allowed a fee-less transfer), flew to LA instead, and had to rent a car ($70/week) and drive to BRC. Driving direct would add about 200 miles to the journey each way.
- You paid for a ticket at the Will Call implying that you received a LIT ticket.

An LIT ticket saves a person about $200 off the price of a full ticket. It seems, however, that you had few financial difficulties in securing alternative means of travel when problems occurred, even when companies like Delta were not willing to work with you to do it. I applaud your resilience, but how is it that someone of your means qualifies -- not just on paper -- for a LIT?
yeah.
and this is a great argument against LIT's.....or at least tighter requirements.
and how radical self entitlement works.
Oh, I'll spend 3K to get there, but really really need to save 200 bucks, and knock a person who it may well matter to, out...

well done.
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Re: Sob story

Post by maladroit » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:32 am

apprehensive wrote:You're making very large assumptions about me based on pretty limited information.
Revising the facts of the conversation is something that only works well when no one can go back and read everything you already said.

I've invited you to explain the situation better.

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Re: Sob story

Post by maladroit » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:38 am

BBadger wrote:
apprehensive wrote:You're making very large assumptions about me based on pretty limited information.
had to rent a car ($70/week) and drive to BRC. Driving direct would add about 200 miles to the journey each way.
You probably meant $70/day which is about what I saw when pricing rental cars a few months ago.

Also they booked a flight from SF to LA rather than driving the car back. That's another random $225.

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Re: Sob story

Post by BBadger » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:41 pm

maladroit wrote:You probably meant $70/day which is about what I saw when pricing rental cars a few months ago.
It depends on where you book. Booking straight from the airport is really expensive, whereas if you have a longer term rental from an off-airport location, it can be substantially cheaper. I can't find the quote for the $70/week I found before, but Dollar and Thrifty has some deals with ~$150/week.
Also they booked a flight from SF to LA rather than driving the car back. That's another random $225.
Well, he may have been that they allowed him to fly to LA as an alternative to the original flight (given it was the same day they often will accommodate it), and then he could take the original return flight from SFO on the way back. Mostly I'm just using the cheapest possible amount given the information provided to show that even those assumptions require substantial means. Even something like obtaining a second international flight on super short notice for a bargain-basement $730 is itself pretty ridiculous.
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Re: Sob story

Post by maladroit » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:23 am

Yeah, the cheapest flights I could book with one day notice (same day wasn't even an option) were $1000+.

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Re: Sob story

Post by apprehensive » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:27 pm

Can we drop this now, please? As I've said before, the situation is substantially different to the one you're painting. I'm not going to go into the details as, frankly, it's none of your business. I would also like to add that anyone who might be in receipt of a LIT should not have to somehow justify their deserving it, especially in the context of an online forum.

You and BBadger are coming very close to accusing me of fraud. For that reason, I am not going to say anything more on the issue. Additionally, I've divulged a lot of very specific details about myself in the course of this thread. Anyone I know from the Playa who might be reading this thread will have no trouble in pinpointing that it is me who is the author and subject of it. Unfortunately, there is at least one person I know who is an avid eplayan and I've every confidence they've already happened across all of this.

One last point. The "radical inclusion" aspect of Burning Man is in large part what attracts me to it and I think a component of this principle is not being overly judgemental of people, especially when one knows only superficial information about them. You might consider trying to apply this in the default world and not simply confining to your time in BRC. I invite you to mull this over at your leisure.

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Re: Sob story

Post by maladroit » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:28 pm

apprehensive wrote:Can we drop this now, please? As I've said before, the situation is substantially different to the one you're painting. I'm not going to go into the details as, frankly, it's none of your business. I would also like to add that anyone who might be in receipt of a LIT should not have to somehow justify their deserving it, especially in the context of an online forum.
Everyone who receives a low-income ticket is required to justify it to BMORG, with financial documentation, as part of the application process. The intent is to ease the burden on people to whom a $200 savings makes a real difference in their ability to attend the event. It's one way for us to soften one of the biggest barriers to entry -- the cost -- and therefore furthers the spirit of Radical Inclusion.
You and BBadger are coming very close to accusing me of fraud. For that reason, I am not going to say anything more on the issue. Additionally, I've divulged a lot of very specific details about myself in the course of this thread. Anyone I know from the Playa who might be reading this thread will have no trouble in pinpointing that it is me who is the author and subject of it. Unfortunately, there is at least one person I know who is an avid eplayan and I've every confidence they've already happened across all of this.
We are pointing out a possible failure on the part of BMORG to accurately process the low-income ticket applications. It is unfortunate that the information you've posted appears to reveal behavior that is unlikely to be legally fraudulent (yet in some ways socially fraudulent). And it's unfortunate that maybe someone you know might find out how you got your ticket. But you are not the concern...the issue here is that the low-income ticket program is supposed to further Radical Inclusion by making it easier for people in financial difficulty to attend the event. The thousands of dollars of unexpected expenses you threw at your problems makes it look like the LIT program failed to reject at least one application where the $200 savings was unneeded, therefore blocking entry to some other deserving applicant. Identifying problems in our community and trying to solve them furthers the spirit of Civic Responsibility.
One last point. The "radical inclusion" aspect of Burning Man is in large part what attracts me to it and I think a component of this principle is not being overly judgemental of people, especially when one knows only superficial information about them. You might consider trying to apply this in the default world and not simply confining to your time in BRC. I invite you to mull this over at your leisure.
I invite you to take off your halo before it gets too tight. Radical Inclusion does not require us to remain silent when we see important parts of our community abused.

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Re: Sob story

Post by BBadger » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:06 pm

apprehensive wrote:I would also like to add that anyone who might be in receipt of a LIT should not have to somehow justify their deserving it, especially in the context of an online forum.

You and BBadger are coming very close to accusing me of fraud.
The LIT program is intended for specific groups of people that meet specific requirements, namely those who have limited means where a full-priced ticket would be too great a financial burden. The minimum method of verifying this "need" is via income and expense information provided to BMORG.

While individuals may qualify on paper for a LIT, the qualification for such a ticket due to an excessive financial burden in paying for a full-priced ticket is a different matter. This is what we're seeking clarification in light of the (perceived) substantial financial resources you were able to leverage in traveling to BRC.

For that reason, I am not going to say anything more on the issue. Additionally, I've divulged a lot of very specific details about myself in the course of this thread. Anyone I know from the Playa who might be reading this thread will have no trouble in pinpointing that it is me who is the author and subject of it. Unfortunately, there is at least one person I know who is an avid eplayan and I've every confidence they've already happened across all of this.

I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean. However, it does sound like you think that starting a thread on a forum means you control what content can go into it. You don't. This is an open forum and we are all free to respond to whatever is posted here within the guidelines of the terms of service.
One last point. The "radical inclusion" aspect of Burning Man is in large part what attracts me to it and I think a component of this principle is not being overly judgemental of people, especially when one knows only superficial information about them. You might consider trying to apply this in the default world and not simply confining to your time in BRC. I invite you to mull this over at your leisure.
Radical inclusion is about allowing people to express themselves in ways that are not harmful to others. It's like letting people express their opinions, but not perhaps act on them.

Radical inclusion also doesn't apply to ticket sales anymore than decommodification. Limited tickets create, by definition, exclusion. So do financial means. It is for that reason that tickets that are reserved for specific needs. Should the definition of "need" become diluted and meaningless there is not point in continuing programs such as the LIT program.

For these reasons, we are seeking clarification on this matter. Even if you admit to not having qualified for an LIT in the spirit of the program -- and this is not saying you did not -- you're not going to be chased out of here as long as you're ready to own up to the fact. The LIT program generates a lot of contention, as you've already seen. Usefulness aside, at the very least it should benefit the actual people for whom it was intended.
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Re: Sob story

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:01 am

Well, I for one can sleep easier at night knowing the likes of BBadger and Maladroit are vigilantly guarding our precious event against the exploitation of the rich and unprincipled.



:roll:

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Re: Sob story

Post by Elderberry » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:15 am

A-RockLeFrench wrote:Well, I for one can sleep easier at night knowing the likes of BBadger and Maladroit are vigilantly guarding our precious event against the exploitation of the rich and unprincipled.
:roll:
:)
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Re: Sob story

Post by Dr. Pyro » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:33 am

A-RockLeFrench wrote: vigilantly guarding our precious event against the exploitation of the rich and unprincipled.
Well shit, there goes all of my fun.

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Re: Sob story

Post by maladroit » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:07 am

ssssshhhhh, the newbie doesn't yet know that we can't actually do anything about this

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Re: Sob story

Post by Sham » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:12 pm

A-RockLeFrench wrote:Well, I for one can sleep easier at night knowing the likes of BBadger and Maladroit are vigilantly guarding our precious event against the exploitation of the rich and unprincipled.



:roll:
They are the self-appointed protectors of the 10 Principles. I don't think the OP needs to give you any explanation or financial statement. All that information was provided at the time of applying for the LIT to the org. The simple fact that someone had some very difficult time getting the playa and had to dig down to make the trip actually happen, should be of no concern to BBadger and Maladroit. Further, if the OP had to borrow money from a relative or sell personal items to make this trip, that too is personal info.

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