Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

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robotland
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Post by robotland » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:38 am

You will never eliminate bartering at Burningman. Never, Never, Never, it is too useful as a means of interaction (and exchanging stuff). It is too informal to stop. It is "low-tech". It is built-in to the human psyche. Sure, gifting is best, but the other side to that coin is barter, and if you have one you have the other.

That's it in a nutshell, I think. Some of the distinctions regarding gifting, barter and trade in BRC are almost Seinfeldian- On the level of "who gets thanked for the big salad"....I've seen people get miffed because they GAVE someone else a beer, and then later on that person didn't GIVE them a beer in return even though there had been no arrangement implied that they should do so.
I'd hate to think that we'll end up going, "Is this a GIFT? Is this a GIFT?" every time someone hands you a beer. So many shades of interpretation! Better to have such a rich variety than to end up paying 100 Harveys for a bag of ice.....The only way a FORMAL barter system'd work would be if we had a fat, pale guy behind a caged window who determined the going exchange rate for everything- And he's probably make you check your weapons!
Howdy From Kalamazoo

dragonfly Jafe
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:32 pm

in 2001 we camped next to some folks that had a big generator. We had a small coleman and gas. They came over and offered electricity for gas (they were a little short). We haggled for a bit, agreed, put the coleman away (did not have to clean it that year) and gave them a few 5 gallon gas cans. We got electricity for the week, they got some gas (maybe $30 worth), and overall the sound level was less. This is the kind of bartering I am talking about. Now at the end of the week we gifted them 5 gallons to get out of BM, and they washed our hair (they had a sun-shower thingy) as a counter-gift. Bev, if you are out there, hello!

Blue Jester
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Post by Blue Jester » Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:40 pm

This may have already been posted here but I did not feel like reading through 9 pages of ranting.Maybe there was just some drunk watching the door demanding freebooze because she/he wanted free booze.Just a thought.
Rob the bank, give the money to the poor, then steal from the poor and shoot the money.......or something like that.

actiongrl
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Post by actiongrl » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:01 pm

Wow, who wants to eliminate barter? Oof.

But I like to tweak the concept a little in my mind.

If I think of the two items exchanged as a gift that the other party needed and would have given with or without the reward if they had the means, then poof - I don't see an economic mechanism, I see an interaction of giving.

I think out there because of the nature of how we are seeing so many gifts given freely, sometimes what looks like a "barter transaction", in fact, really might have been possible in only one direction even without the anticipated "return on investment". It just created a closed circuit for the energy, resulting instead in a bidirectional expression of the desire to share what we have.

when you do meet someone and decide that you both want to swap object a for object b or item c for experience d, maybe each resulting fulfillment of a need or desire can be understood on its own merit as a thoughtful gesture and not just a medium of exchange...a symbiotic, simultaneous occurance of two gifts, each simply being relocated to its rightful recipient... a mutual act of generosity, rather than of mere self-interest.

(This is surely not the truth of every such exchange or even most of them, and it's lofty to think it's applicable in every way, but I know I've had a few experiences where it truly felt like this is what happened, and I think it's interesting to ponder those circumstances that create the rare interactions that happen in abundance in BRC. YMMV, and IMVWBEFOB.)







That's "I may very well be entirely full of beans", which I would like to state for the record is implicit in every post I make.

the_iconoclast
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Post by the_iconoclast » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:09 pm

I guess one of my questions would be:
Was there a long line? Was it admission or a bribe for a "cut" in the line? Are bribes in such a case cosidered barter or just a natural extension of giving a little extra to get what is desired...?

Just curious...

dragonfly Jafe
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:19 pm

the_iconoclast wrote:I guess one of my questions would be:
Was there a long line? Was it admission or a bribe for a "cut" in the line? Are bribes in such a case cosidered barter or just a natural extension of giving a little extra to get what is desired...?

Just curious...
My first few years I spent alot of time trying to bring "swag" so that I could get into the "good" attractions without waiting. But unless you have jewelry, alcohol, or the like, the door people at the "good" attractions are not too interested (apparently they get offered a bunch of crap all the time).

Now I just go with the flow and gift when the whimsy strikes. And don't worry about what is "good"

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bullD
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Post by bullD » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:26 pm

there is most likely a good reason that there is a line in front of any attraction. I worked the entrance to Antarctica (not the ice camp) often and bribing in my opinion just showed me what type of person was standing in front of me with the bribe (read between them lines) while the fucking amazing citizens of BRC paitiently waited with the smarts to know that we could only admit a certain amount of people at one time.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:34 am

bullD--you can apply to the eplaya brain trust for ideas of how to best play with the bribers.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

DNAinVEGAS
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Post by DNAinVEGAS » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:39 pm

This sounds about right for how they run their camp concidering how some of their members are to other camps. I ran a large theme camp last year (Vortex casino) which stayed packed all night "with lines". No problem with the lines though.

We had a back room with the computers in it for our other attraction (The black hole) that was CLEARLY marked "DO NOT ENTER. One guy went back and I stopped him verbally. He told me to F_uck off and refused to leave. Our security ejected him. He caused a scene outside and kept yelling "You don't know who your F_cking with! I'm with Thunderdome and we're going to F_ck your camp up." and things like that.

About an hour later we lost ALL power. Checking the generators in our "private" camp area, the spark plug wires were pulled and cut, perminantly killing our entire camp for the rest of the event. When reported, Thunderdome reps denied anyone in their camp would do that. Then laughed as we walked away.

It doesn't surprise me that they would mistreat their guests also.

spectabillis
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Post by spectabillis » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:21 pm

DNAinVEGAS wrote:He told me to F_uck off and refused to leave. Our security ejected him. He caused a scene outside and kept yelling "You don't know who your F_cking with! I'm with Thunderdome and we're going to F_ck your camp up." and things like that.
... the spark plug wires were pulled and cut.
Sorry to hear that happened, thanks for adding your story.

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:28 pm

That's a sucky thing to have happen... it's things like that that really have fucked up the cohisiveness of BRC... then again, when any city (including ours) gets to a certain size you gotta realize you're gonna have some, um, "element" that is gonna go out of their way to try to screw things up.

And no, I am not directing that at *anyone*... I just know how group dynamics go. And just 'cuz they chuckled doesn't mean they did it, they could have been reacting to the irony of it all. Who knows...

That's another thing that we could use - kind of like the old Bicycle Camp, a group who can do "emergency surgeries" on generators. Actually, I'm kind of trying to talk my brother into doing something like that (both of us do small gas engine stuff, tho I'm over in ESD this year)... I always figured there'd be a need...

BTW, if that happens again you *can* either splice the wire(s) to make them work, or even make a "shunt" with regular wire and electric tape, and get the generator running again. (I've even seen barbed wire used as spark plug leads!) It may not be pretty, but it *will* keep your camp up and running through the week, if need be. Just be sure to keep it isolated from rug rats, tho they should kinda not be near that kinda stuff anyway! (It *can* give a nasty jolt if conditions are right)

BTW, you guys pull off one helluva show. Can't wait to see this year's installment.

Live hard, Play(a) hard...
BBS

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:42 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote: tho I'm over in ESD this year
Do I know you?
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:46 pm

I can't think of any justification for sabotaging someone's generator or doing emergency surgeries on it, period. Who knows, that generator could be the primary power source for someone's oxygen generator or APAP machine and sabotaging it could create a world of problems or worse for someone....just hearing about that totally pisses me off. Even if it was powering a large sound camp that got out of hand, the generator has a kill switch, use it first. If things have gotten that bad that you feel the urge to sabotage someone's equipment, try working something out face to face in a calm, cool way, Call in a Ranger, work out some kind of compromise...but if it's not your equipment keep your damn hands off it. </rant>

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:48 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Bay Bridge Sue wrote: tho I'm over in ESD this year
Do I know you?
If you don't...

you will...


if you dare...

>>wikkid grins<<

BBS

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:50 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
Bay Bridge Sue wrote: tho I'm over in ESD this year
Do I know you?
If you don't...

you will...


if you dare...

>>wikkid grins<<

BBS
Okay, but if you're real scary, I'm hiding behind Lothos.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:27 pm

Tancorix wrote:I can't think of any justification for sabotaging someone's generator or doing emergency surgeries on it, period. </rant>
I was talking about emergency surgeries to get it running again, ***NOT*** to sabotage it. Why the hell *anyone* would dare go into someone's *private* part of someone elses camp and damage it... well... it takes a lot of overgrown cajones. And that's not activity that's reommended for a long and healthful vacation at BRC (at least around our digs!)

Then again... our small town is growing up. IF you have a camp (I'll use Vortex for example) where you *must* have utilities to operate, and a secure area (like for their computer gear), you damn near need to have someone there whose job it is to watch your "back of house" operations to keep "plug-uglies" from doing you harm, and a game plan in case someone does (like having someone on your camp staff or knowing someone who can do emergency repairs on generators) It's part of the citification of BRC... Do I like it? No. But it's part of having a city of almost 40K + people. (Think we'll break 50K this year?? 55K?)

Then again - it's a real good reason to get in tight with your neighboring camps, so you can watch each other's backs. Kinda like a neighborhood watch program. Plus, it's things like that which help build the community!

(/rant)

BBS

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:30 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: Okay, but if you're real scary, I'm hiding behind Lothos.
Heh heh heh ...

You can hide... but you can't run! >>giggles<<

Going to the thing on the 2nd?

BBS

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:33 pm

Town hall meeting/job fair? Not planning on it.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:42 pm

Going for the food... Maybe I'll make some Green s'ghetti or something... since it's only on the other side of where I work...

BBS

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:52 pm

Yeah, taking the casual carpool to the city four days a week means I'm lazy about going there on my days off.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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bullD
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Post by bullD » Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:55 pm

in response to DNAinVegas post:

I'll start by saying that I am very bummed this happened to you and your camp, that is shitty.

however, something just does not add up here. first, I have nothing to do with death guild/thunderdome other than having camped with one of their own a few years back and he was the coolest most chill mofo you will ever meet. in fact, every interaction I have had with anybody from thunderdome has been brotherly and/or sisterly. sure, they act a certain way but, under that facade are a bunch of good people. with that said, if you yourself AND your security laid eyes on this person then surly the person could have been found lurking around with the death guild/thunderdome camp.

this would be my take: a disgrunteled person who perhaps had their ass kicked in the dome ( it's thunderdome, this shit happens) was looking for a little revenge and unfortunately your camp kicked this pissed person out, which you have every right to do, thus starting the uglyness in motion. I'm sure there are more than a couple of people that leave thunderdome a little pissy for whatever reason thus, I would have to agree with bay bridge sue, they were most likely laughing at the irony of it all.

I suggest in the future that you let the rangers do the deed of booting a person from your camp. they are good with these situations, in fact I would have to say that they fukin rock!

DNAinVEGAS
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Post by DNAinVEGAS » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:30 pm

The person in question that we booted WAS with Thunderdome and was seen running from the camp after the lights went out. We only approached a "couple" people in Death Guild "with" Rangers and they "Claimed" to be in charge. They may not have been. Your right, Thunderdome rocks. I love those folks and have for years. But there are a lot of them and all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil the pie. Maybe "they" were the few that demanded payment in line (Original topic).

This happened after the burn Saturday night, so we only lost 1.5 nights (1/2 Sat. and Sunday), no biggie. Since it was Burn night, we blamed it on the booze/drugs possibly.

As for having the Rangers boot him, they were not close and he was stnding in the "do not enter" area right next to the computers. No telling what he would have done if we waited any longer. It was quick and clean.

The point I'm making is this: Thunderdome rocks! But maybe there were a few bad apples in the group that just wanted to start/make trouble like demanding things to enter and trashing us. I don't think the whole camp is bad by any means.

RuS
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Post by RuS » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:20 pm

I love the thunderdome!
)(

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diode
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beg for it

Post by diode » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:21 pm

Bring back the Beggar's Bar. Humiliate yourself in front of a puppet to get a swill of some cheap Koolaid. Guaranteed crowd pleaser.

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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:33 pm

Bring back the Beggar's Bar.
LOVED that place! Anyone remember who did it? They were amazing. I love when the puppet pulled out the picture of his ex girlfriend, too much!

STSC
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Post by STSC » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:33 pm

Thunderdome is over-rated and boring after about 30 seconds of the first fight.
Don't take anything I do personally unless I do it to you with my hands.

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diode
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beg for it

Post by diode » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:38 am

Never saw the GF picture shtick but saw lots of people thrown back on their ultimate resources to get that drink of weak koolaid. That puppet was one tough cookie.

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Ugly Dougly
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu May 19, 2005 2:17 pm

I never went there, figuring that any camp that copies something out a movie can't be worthwhile.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu May 19, 2005 2:26 pm

Dang! There goes my idea for Revenge of the Sith lightshow camp.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Winsurf
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Just likethe real world

Post by Winsurf » Sat May 21, 2005 8:43 am

Gee I’m an idiot
I have never been with a theme camp. I do make a nice shaded camp with several comfy chares for people to sit down and chill. I bring about 50 cases of beer and keep a selection of cold brews for anyone who wants one. No barter just a cold brew because I can. I never tried to bribe anyone and waited in lines at some attractions. Some events I was turned away from for what I always thought were good reason. Some camps I visited allowed me to participate without barter or bribes; I just thought that’s how it was. I never thought of bribing anyone. Guess I should stop bringing so much beer and not going to the effort of keeping some cold. Except for what I could use to bribe my way into something. Sounds just like here in the real world. Why bother building the shade structure, Heck that alone cost me about as much as I earn in a week and that don’t count the rest of the stuff. Maybe instead of putting up the welcome smile to people I should put up barbed wire. There is one good idea I have though, use very old stale beer for a bribes.

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