Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

Share your pictures and video. Tell us about the sights, sounds, and scents, as well as the rumors and truths found at Burning Man.
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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon May 23, 2005 8:59 am

So I was a fool to pass on those 12 cases of green beer I coulda got for $30 on March 19.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Shinxy
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Post by Shinxy » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:48 pm

geekster wrote:If I *REALLY* wanted to play in TD, I think I could figure out a way ... maybe try picking a fight with one of the TD people. That might get you in there.
Friend of mine tried that in 2003.
Word of advice: if you pick a fight with the Death Guild, they don't put you in the Thunderdome, they just slug you right there and then.
aka Twin, Luminary BRC Lamplighters
'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '10

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Flea
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Post by Flea » Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:40 pm

[quote="dragonfly Jafe"][quote="zorro sings"]"Down with barter! Long live gift economy!"
I agree with Dork.What the fuck is the difference between [u]asking[/u] for booze or asking for money?[/quote]

Asking for money is specifically a no-no at Burningman, but asking for Barter is a time-honored accepted practice. That's the main difference...

I agree with you in principal (gifts rule, barter sucks). But you are never going to get barter "outlawed" at Burningman. If you want what they have, you play by their rules (or do without). And the golden rule is "supply and demand", not "do things for free". If BM ever outlawed barter, you would see fewer attractions (IMHO).

How do you propose that over-popular attractions decide who gets to use them?[/quote]

Part of me wanting to go to BM was not only because of the freedom of expression but also the bartering system.. be it booz, gift or a humilating act... to me it will be an experiance of a lifetime! If I want in then I will just have to find a way now wont I? such is life.. Now I want in the TD simply for the challenge...By the way.. this will be my first BM, I am sure to learn much by tossing away my attitude and reaching within myself to be, do, give and get what I want as well as deal with it if I cant... Im so fucking excited!

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falk
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Post by falk » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:46 am

Consider this: a ban on Barter would be nigh on impossible to enforce. You don't make laws that can't be enforced.

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TheJudge
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Post by TheJudge » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:43 pm

I just love the people who think that because they spent the money for a ticket, it gives them carte blanc to do whatever they want at any theme camp they choose.

Point of fact: There is not one single camp out there that could accomodate 30,000 people wanting to visit it. If slipping the guy at the door a few bottles of good stuff helps make the door open a little wider for ya, so be it.

Barter is against the rules, but bribing is still well and good.

And you are not going to get very far with most camps if you try to push your warm PBR at them as a bribe. For Thunderdome, I would suspect that Absynthe would get your pretty far.
"Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union." - Lao Tsu

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Flea
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Post by Flea » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:02 pm

Whats PBR???

I expect nothing from anyone at BM...As I mentioned before, no attitude and self reliance is what I am taking... As for Camps, either I am accepted or turned away.. nothing to have an attitude about and Ill be enjoying BM with people or by myself if I am not welcomed in.. I am new, lot to learn and will not be so rude as to push myself upon others if it is appearant I am not welcomed...

I think I should re-fraze my last comment "humiliating Acts" haha... it wasnt sexual to anyone.. maybe to myself or doing some rediculous daring command which I love by the way! I don't need to explain myself here but I do have to say... Ive been single for 9 months and still have not gone on a date out of pickyness.. so, sexual act? to get what I want?? not even but definitly if someone is cool and interesting.. still most likely Ill have to just take care of myself! Self Reliance eh? haha

dragonfly Jafe
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:40 pm

falk wrote:Consider this: a ban on Barter would be nigh on impossible to enforce. You don't make laws that can't be enforced.
What about those States that attempt to legislate "bedroom activities"?

Enforceability has never appeared to be very big on any Legislator's check-list...

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falk
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Post by falk » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:46 pm

Yah, but those legistors are fools. I hope the people running BM are not fools.

dragonfly Jafe
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:12 am

falk wrote:...I hope the people running BM are not fools.
That is a whole different topic, history will be the judge of that...

robotland
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Post by robotland » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:06 am

Flea wrote:Whats PBR???
Playa-Based Refreshment

(actually, Pabst Blue Ribbon...like Milwaukee's Best but with a better logo.)
Howdy From Kalamazoo

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TheJudge
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Post by TheJudge » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:30 am

robotland wrote:
Flea wrote:Whats PBR???
Playa-Based Refreshment

(actually, Pabst Blue Ribbon...like Milwaukee's Best but with a better logo.)
Or the cheap, pisswater beer of your choice.

"Hey, I want to exploit your camp's hard work like a prom date on roofies. Here is a 6 pack of cheap warm beer. Let me in."
"Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union." - Lao Tsu

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HughMungus
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Post by HughMungus » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:29 pm

TheJudge wrote:I just love the people who think that because they spent the money for a ticket, it gives them carte blanc to do whatever they want at any theme camp they choose.

Point of fact: There is not one single camp out there that could accomodate 30,000 people wanting to visit it. If slipping the guy at the door a few bottles of good stuff helps make the door open a little wider for ya, so be it.

Barter is against the rules, but bribing is still well and good.

And you are not going to get very far with most camps if you try to push your warm PBR at them as a bribe. For Thunderdome, I would suspect that Absynthe would get your pretty far.
Couldn't agree more.

Last year I was hanging out somewhere and we met some cool people and they said, "Hey come in here with us." "In here" was some camp serving dinner for people. I know that it's no small thing to serve dinner to a group at Burning Man and I knew I hadn't been invited to dinner, so I hung out with the new friends for a few minutes and left. I'm sure if I'd asked that I could have stayed, but, I wasn't supposed to be there, the hosts didn't know who I was, so I decided to make it easy on them and just go. Everyone here wants some control over who spends time in their camp. If I want someone in, I'll let them in. If they look like a troublemaking yahoo doofus jerkoff, a gift might change my mind about them. :D
It's what you make it.

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Dork
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Post by Dork » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:07 pm

I just love the people who think that because they spent the money for a ticket, it gives them carte blanc to do whatever they want at any theme camp they choose.
I'm with you on those guys.. but you're saying if those same people spend an extra $200 on a case of booze then they SHOULD be able to cut in front of any line they want?

I still fail to see how accepting $20 worth of booze to put someone at the front of the line is any better than accepting a $20 bill. It's still commerce, even though it has a slight under the table vibe to it.

If an attraction has limited capacity, it will have limited capacity no matter what. All the bribing does is allow people who have the means to buy their way in.

blyslv
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Post by blyslv » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:24 pm

falk wrote: You don't make laws that can't be enforced.
Mr. Falk, Mr. Falk, the DEA is on line 1, should I put them on hold?
Fight for the fifth freedom!

blyslv
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Post by blyslv » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:25 pm

TheJudge wrote: Barter is against the rules,

????? Huh?
Fight for the fifth freedom!

blyslv
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Post by blyslv » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:31 pm

bar·ter v. bar·tered, bar·ter·ing, bar·ters v. intr.
To trade goods or services without the exchange of money.
v. tr.
To trade (goods or services) without the exchange of money.
n.
The act or practice of bartering.
Something bartered.
adj.
Of, relating to, or being something based on bartering: a barter economy.
-----------------------------------------------------------
com·merce n.
The buying and selling of goods, especially on a large scale, as between cities or nations. See Synonyms at business.
Intellectual exchange or social interaction.
Sexual intercourse.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[French, from Old French, from Latin commercium : com-, com- + merx, merc-, merchandise.]
Main Entry: com·merce
Function: noun
1 : the exchange or buying and selling of goods, commodities, property, or services esp. on a large scale and involving transportation from place to place : TRADE 2 —see also COMMERCE CLAUSE Fair Labor Standards Act in the IMPORTANT LAWS section
2 : the act of engaging in sexual intercourse


=======================================
The main difference of course is the presence of money. in a commerce system the value of something is set by a third parety who is not present at the transaction. In barter, the value of something is determined by two people interacting to discover what the worth of the things to be exchanged are. A $20 bottle of booze in the bay area may be worth less or a helluva lot more on the playa, but that is for the two people bartering to decide.

Barter is interactive, whereas commerce is not.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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Nightterror
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Post by Nightterror » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:11 pm

blyslv wrote:The main difference of course is the presence of money. in a commerce system the value of something is set by a third parety who is not present at the transaction. In barter, the value of something is determined by two people interacting to discover what the worth of the things to be exchanged are. A $20 bottle of booze in the bay area may be worth less or a helluva lot more on the playa, but that is for the two people bartering to decide.

Barter is interactive, whereas commerce is not.
WTF? The value is set by a third party? So - Suzy comes into your store to buy a tent and I (the third party) decide what the price is? Wow - now that would be interesting.
I express my excitement by brutally interrogating whomever is nearby

blyslv
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Post by blyslv » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:24 pm

Nightterror wrote:
blyslv wrote:The main difference of course is the presence of money. in a commerce system the value of something is set by a third parety who is not present at the transaction. In barter, the value of something is determined by two people interacting to discover what the worth of the things to be exchanged are. A $20 bottle of booze in the bay area may be worth less or a helluva lot more on the playa, but that is for the two people bartering to decide.

Barter is interactive, whereas commerce is not.
WTF? The value is set by a third party? So - Suzy comes into your store to buy a tent and I (the third party) decide what the price is? Wow - now that would be interesting.
The value is set by the company that made the tent. The store owner buys it and marks it up for Suzie.

btw did you have a point or are your just typing 'cuz you're fingers are itchy?
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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Nightterror
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Post by Nightterror » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:55 pm

blyslv wrote: The value is set by the company that made the tent. The store owner buys it and marks it up for Suzie.

btw did you have a point or are your just typing 'cuz you're fingers are itchy?
The point is that value is set by the consumer not the supplier.

If the value is set by the company that made the tent. What about the company that supplied the "company" with the materials to mfg the tent. And the suppliers to the suppliers to the suppliers.

And in your example, if the store owner marks it up for Suzy then wouldn't the store owner be setting the price.

The value/price for the good is set by the market, in this case Suzy. If the market does not support the cost than the mfg will not mfg. So actually, Suzy determines the value of the tent.

Such as with bartering - the two of you determine how much booze it will take to enter. Barter is commerce. Suzy won't give more cash than she determines it is worth and you won't trade more booze than you determine it is worth.

So my itchy finger says barter is commerce - commerce is barter.
I express my excitement by brutally interrogating whomever is nearby

blyslv
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Post by blyslv » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:11 pm

Nightterror wrote:
blyslv wrote:So my itchy finger says barter is commerce - commerce is barter.
Well then I guess we'll disagree.

But money is fungible and the tent will always cost X dollars (whatever the market will bear). But the value of a thing traded on the playa will be much more situational. What's worth more on a hot dusty morning? A cold beer or a cold glass of freshly squeezed OJ? YMMV In the commerce situation their value will stay the same, on the playa it will change. Because there is no commerce there is no market, but that doesn't eliminate barter. So I see the two as very different.

The level of interaction is different as well. Suzie buying a tent does not have to say a single word to the merchant. In barter you must explore what is of value to the other person and then decide if you can supply it. Maybe you learn that person wants an expert massage. If you have that skill you can trade for somthing they may have, like some lumber they're not using.

Gifting as the only medium of exchange creates expecations and a consumerist mentality (Where's my fuicking gift?). Barter makes you explore what is of value to the people involved in the transaction.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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Dork
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Post by Dork » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:30 pm

Gifting as the only medium of exchange creates expecations and a consumerist mentality (Where's my fuicking gift?). Barter makes you explore what is of value to the people involved in the transaction.
Wow.. I was tempted earlier to mock your "barter is more interactive than selling" post by saying that gifting is less interactive than both but you beat me to the punch.

Gifting is not the problem. EXPECTATIONS are the problem. You want to get on my ride? Give me something. Hey, you gave something to that guy - where's mine? Oh, you're out of fuel and can't run the generator for your sound system? Let's see how I can profit from this. To me, it's all the same profit grabbing mentality that permeates our society and I try to get away from at Burning Man. Just because you're selling something for another thing instead of cash doesn't mean it isn't selling. If I want an interactive exploration of the value of things, I'll go to a swap meet.

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Post by blyslv » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:40 pm

"Profit" is a word that's been missing frm this discussion and I think it's important. That is anotehr thing that makes barter different frm commerce. People trading something on the playa "profit" in the sense that they both come away with something they needed or wanted. "Profit" in commerce means that you got something in excess of the cost of the artifact exchanged. To me that is a big difference.

My model for barter comes form the bar I ran a few years ago. To get a drink you had to "do something" with gender. This made only one person walk away, to bad for him. Some people it stumped, but they came up with things that were funny and in some cases very expanding. But I was not gifting drinks, you had to expend something; not money, but energy. We even supplied a costume tent for people having a hard time.
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Nightterror
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Post by Nightterror » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:35 pm

blyslv wrote:"Profit" is a word that's been missing frm this discussion and I think it's important. That is anotehr thing that makes barter different frm commerce. People trading something on the playa "profit" in the sense that they both come away with something they needed or wanted. "Profit" in commerce means that you got something in excess of the cost of the artifact exchanged. To me that is a big difference.

My model for barter comes form the bar I ran a few years ago. To get a drink you had to "do something" with gender. This made only one person walk away, to bad for him. Some people it stumped, but they came up with things that were funny and in some cases very expanding. But I was not gifting drinks, you had to expend something; not money, but energy. We even supplied a costume tent for people having a hard time.
You want to talk about expectations - You expect something in return for your drink. I would walk away every time from an establishment such as yours. Barter is the exchange of one value for the other without the use of money. I find no value in acting like a monkey for your entertainment in exchange for shit booze. I can do that in the real world.
I express my excitement by brutally interrogating whomever is nearby

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Flea
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Post by Flea » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:54 pm

[quote="Dork"][quote]Gifting as the only medium of exchange creates expecations and a consumerist mentality (Where's my fuicking gift?). Barter makes you explore what is of value to the people involved in the transaction.[/quote]

Wow.. I was tempted earlier to mock your "barter is more interactive than selling" post by saying that gifting is less interactive than both but you beat me to the punch.

Gifting is not the problem. EXPECTATIONS are the problem. You want to get on my ride? Give me something. Hey, you gave something to that guy - where's mine? Oh, you're out of fuel and can't run the generator for your sound system? Let's see how I can profit from this. To me, it's all the same profit grabbing mentality that permeates our society and I try to get away from at Burning Man. Just because you're selling something for another thing instead of cash doesn't mean it isn't selling. If I want an interactive exploration of the value of things, I'll go to a swap meet.[/quote]

I hope to find more camps and people like "Dork" I knew I would have to barter for some things but it's begining to sound unlike what I thought the burning man experiance was.. I had this strange image ( since I have never been to BM and only told how awsome it is by a friend) that no money was used and people just gift stuff to you.. you dont have to pay but its the offerings of gifts back to those who give to you as a means of thanking them.. I new it would be a diverse experiance in every way and was under the impression BM considered all to be family... well, in what I have been reading over the last week is see BM isnt the society I had imagined...its more like the society we live everyday in our hometowns but with no rules...I hope I am wrong... I feel now as though whatever I gift from my own creativity may be rejected or pressured to give more ... thats no fun! Thats like giving someone a Birthday present and they say "this present sucks ass" right to your face!! its suposed to be a gesture of THANK YOU isnt it?

Sincerely Newbie with questions......

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falk
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Post by falk » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:41 pm

Flea wrote:I hope to find more camps and people like "Dork"
Don't worry, you will. They're the norm.

This is just a philosophical meta-discussion. I'm still waiting for the "property is theft!" crowd and the hardcore libertarians to arrive. Then comes the comparison to Nazis and we can all go home.

It's all just farts in a windstorm. Alwyas remember, it's only ones and zeros.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:11 pm

If "YOU" pay for anything in any way. "YOU" are part of the problem. I would like BM to stay the way it was set up. So I just walk away if it takes money/bribes. There is so much other stuff to do.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

eva girlhead
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Post by eva girlhead » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:27 am

A few years ago, I walked up to a bar (which shall remain unnamed, I guess) and the guy there gave me a bored look and said, "this is a barter bar, you know". He didn't want anything to do with my sequins, even though they were his color. He wouldn't give me a drink, not for a shoulder rub or anything else. Maybe a blow job would have worked. I'm going to have absinthe this year... none for him.
Hey, did y'all know that in Spain you can get green, red, or black absinthe? I can only bring two bottles back, which ones should I get?
I am NOT a leper.

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green faeries

Post by rumajo » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:57 am

Green & Red - then you can come on SantaCon and spread Xmas cheer!
'03 - Faith & 430; '04 - Mars & 530; '05 - Fetish & 420; '06 - 430 Keyhole; '08 - The Wheel & 630; '11 - Gnome & 250...

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Nightterror
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Post by Nightterror » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:31 am

Burningman is a gift community. Barter Frats are the exception and should just be ignored.

It has been my experience that treating others the way I want to be treated works very well. Much better than in the real world. I have no expectations when gifting so I am never disappointed.

The experience can be anything you want it to - it's up to you.
I express my excitement by brutally interrogating whomever is nearby

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TheJudge
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Post by TheJudge » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:00 am

Nightterror wrote: It has been my experience that treating others the way I want to be treated works very well.
Wow. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Who'da thought!
"Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union." - Lao Tsu

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