Lampman tragedy and greed

Share your pictures and video. Tell us about the sights, sounds, and scents, as well as the rumors and truths found at Burning Man.
spectabillis
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Postby spectabillis » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:13 pm

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Lassen Forge
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Postby Lassen Forge » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:00 pm

Karma13 wrote:The camp raised thousands of dollars for the family immediately after the accident to cover any funeral costs and to fund an art program at a local school (she was an artist). So they are not suing for their costs.

The plaintiffs have not established an amount, at this stage they only have to state that the amount they seek is over $50,000 (I think). But, one would suspect that the amount will be in the seven figures. The plaintiff's attorneys are completely supporting the costs of the lawsuit until settlement or verdict, and you have to think with so many lawyers involved the costs have to be high (and the lawsuit hasn't even moved to the deposition stage).


Lawyers in cases like these work on contingencies based on a percentage of the award plus their expenses. That's why the actual plaintiffs, after having 7 digit stars in their eyes, get the rude awakening of a (maybe) 5 digit award - those costs on top of the %age add up quick, and don't forget taxes, both state and federal. Seen it more than once. A 1.5 mil award and the person actually harmed and wronged gets under $100K. The lawyers buy a building and move in, have a champagne reception and buy new furnature and clothes. Yep. Fair, huh?

(Just wait, now I'll get an attorney telling me that I have it all wrong and I'm a miserable fuck because I don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I see it coming, maerk my words.)

In fact... altho I feel really bad for the people involved in this case - because of the bullshit I received earlier on in this thread - fuck this shit. I just got the feeling that some fuck is waiting to take a swing at me in this thread again, just like some neanderthal wife beater. Fuck them. Fuck this.

People wonder why I slowed down my postings, walked away from the eplaya?? THAT'S why.

My condolences to the family and to the people who are getting fucked by the lawyers for whoever's bullshit.

La fucking vista...
bb

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Postby SED » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:31 pm

Ick.
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Postby hunter S » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:00 pm

Sue, not trying to take shots at you. You bring up a very good point that we should all understand about taxation of legal settlements. A typical settlement is not taxed, state or Federal, it's the award of punitive damages that gets taxed! Of course the lawyers want all they can get but when they ask for punitive damages .......they will come out better as long as they have a good CPA. The punitive settlement is taxable to them as well as the client.

If you ever end up in a law suit (I hope no one ever dose!) have the attorney explain the settlement he's pursuing & the tax liability up front.

I'm not a lawyer, just have to deal with this more than I like!
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Alchemy
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I entered a contract....

Postby Alchemy » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:25 pm

I have been to BRC 7 times. Each time I bought a ticket ther ticket had all this "writting" on the back that I,a lawyers daughter took rather seriously.....As a ticket holder I assumed all responsibility for ....
Some one fill in the blanks for me...

Point is all tho a dark one and its one I happily respond to...
I go to BM with a full heart and the expectation of danger,as death stalks us all.I do not intend to be mamed or destroyed by crack happy playatude or flamming gynormous art,or rolling gas powered ships/whales/hydras/buddas/ect...but IT COULD FUCKING HAPPEN.
All I can think about is what my life would be like without burningman and it is worth every goddamned penny I can beg borrow or steal to get HOME.
Ill gladdly assume the risks and responsibilitys to FURTHER my experiances with such tremendous people and in the scope of such devine vision.
I am deeply sorry for everyones loss.I imagine she may of previous to her dying moment been very grateful to have been home,and surrounded by the deep majestys of the techno dessert and her tribe. No-one gets us till they be us...If I meet my end in Black Rock I hope I recycle quickly into a playa made embrio...I made one at brc...

MemoryofKathy
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I was one of Kathy's best friends and this is making me sick

Postby MemoryofKathy » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:57 pm

Hi everyone,

I was one of Kathy's best friends. It was my ticket she used to get into BM because I had second thoughts and decided not to go. In fact she had my ID on her when she died. None of her friends went to BM, she barely knew the people she went with and

it was her birthday this week and I am feeling nostalgic, so sometimes I put her name into a search here to see if anyone else has come forward who was there, there is still so many questions we have. The anniversary of her death is coming soon and it always brings up the old emotions.

I found this thread and it literally made me sick to my stomache. I can understand someone being mad with what they perceive as a threat against them but come on, this is ridiculous. I feel people are theorizing on what Kathy would think, let her rest in peace.

The lawsuit has been a closely guarded secret and I only heard whispers of it, never fully believing it would come to fruition. How could you spend all of this time arguing and bringing up Kathy's name in something that so obviously nothing will come of?

Like everyone said, there was a disclaimer right on the ticket (my ticket, but maybe if it was in my name she never signed the disclaimer...hmmm) and the driver was sober. That hardly qualifies for a great case. Sure, I really do believe that BM should have stricter guidelines for art cars (I've seen footage and can't believe no one was hurt before). I also believe her so called friends should have looked out for her more there, such as suggesting she not go and jump off the back of a car in heels but it is a moot point. Kathy died. We were ravers, I know how things go and I don't even blame them.

Kathy was 21, had only been for a month. She always wanted to go to BM, saying she was "drawn to it with a force she could not explain" so I can't be mad about her dying there, in many ways I think she knew deep down. There was something in her eyes when she came for the ticket, and I am not even kidding when I say at 3am the night she died I had a night terror and woke up with a panic I could not contain (I knew deep down)....

Sorry, I am reminiscing. Anyway, as for what she would think about the lawsuit, Kathy and I were very much alike in our way of thinking. She would be saying the same things I am, the lawsuit is not about greed. It is about the other g, grief.

Kathy's family has had a hard time with this understandably and as a mother myself I can only imagine what it is like to lose a child.Ido know her death left us feeling powerless, confused and angry. We all took it differently. Me being from the school of thinking that life and death go hand in hand and people leave when they are supposed to, I took it differently than others. Of course, she was not my baby, and not everyone feels that way.

I am not saying that I agree with the lawsuit, from what I heard BM did a lot to try and save Kathy, but that doesn't stop me from being angry sometimes. This is about feeling that something will actually come from Kathy's death. I don't know the specifics in the lawsuit but I know what you all are going to say....grief is no reason for a lawsuit.

Well, losing someone that way doesn't exactly breed clear thinking does it? It is a tangled mess. You can argue all you want about "contentious lawsuits" and such but leave Kathy's name out of it. Let her rest in peace, let her family rest in peace and learn the facts before you make assumptions.

You all are BM people right? I would think you believed in karma or had faith that things happen for a reason.

I highly doubt this lawsuit will go anywhere, it happened in 2003 and it is 2006. If you look at the case history it doesn't look like that much is going on. And if it does, well maybe something good will come of it. Leave it to a judge to decide though.

I will never forget the look on my friends faces when they carried her coffin to the hearst, the way her face and body looked at the funeral and the last thing she ever said to me. Yes, Kathy's sister does post on this site. I look at it, our friends look at it and near her birthday and the anniversary of her death the last thing I need to see in a posting is about her family and their greed.

Let it go, you do hurt people. You did.

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theCryptofishist
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:21 am

I am so sorry you had to read the ugliness that is this thread.


I have hated the tone and arguements used since the beginning of this thing. I thought they were ugly and unnessesary and marked by a hidious refusal to even try walking in the other's shoes. I really felt insulted and horrified by people who had only known Kathy for the week trying to guess what she would have wanted. I thought the whole damn thing was callous.

And that was before I lost my husband last December (if it makes any damn bit of difference, he was one of the medics on scene that night) and learned once again how greif and loss can grab you by the throat and take you places you never wanted to go and how the general cluelessness of people at large places an additional burden on you at a very bad time.

I'm very f*cking sorry. This is a thread that I'd deleate if I had the power. I can only hope that as people who posted on it move further away from their fears, and experience the tragedies that mark all lives, they will come to be heartily embarrassed by what they have said.

If there's any ceremony to mark her birthday, and you feel it will be appropirate or if it makes sence to you, wish Kathy my best and Bounce's best.

Love, Fishy
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Re: I was one of Kathy's best friends and this is making me

Postby Otisserie » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:23 am

MemoryofKathy wrote:...You all are BM people right? I would think you believed in karma or had faith that things happen for a reason.

I highly doubt this lawsuit will go anywhere, it happened in 2003 and it is 2006. If you look at the case history it doesn't look like that much is going on. And if it does, well maybe something good will come of it. Leave it to a judge to decide though.

I will never forget the look on my friends faces when they carried her coffin to the hearst, the way her face and body looked at the funeral and the last thing she ever said to me. Yes, Kathy's sister does post on this site. I look at it, our friends look at it and near her birthday and the anniversary of her death the last thing I need to see in a posting is about her family and their greed.

Let it go, you do hurt people. You did.


How does a person holding a subpeona "let it go"? Do they not show up to the deposition? Not hire a lawyer? What is the "let it go" option for them?

I'm sorry you have to read this too. But the reason you are reading it is NOT because Kathy died, but because of a lawsuit filed against a lot of good people. I'm sure every one of them would love to see this sad event end. And it would end tomorrow if the family, or whomever is behind the suit, would follow your advice and "let it go". Perhaps you might ask them to. This lawsuit is not Karma or an act of God, it is the result of deliberate and repeated actions by one or more persons.

If you want their understanding for how you feel, then understand how they feel. How would you like to be sued for something you had nothing to do with? Deal with depositions, wonder whether you need a lawyer, and how much will it cost, wonder if some idiot jury will decide you owe your next 100 paychecks to someone else. And knowing that absolutely none of this will change the past or do anything to honor anybody's memory. Trust me, it's making a lot of people sick.
I don't experiment with drugs anymore; I already know which ones I like.

MemoryofKathy
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Postby MemoryofKathy » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:16 pm

Thanks to theCryptofishist for such a nice e-mail. I am so sorry about your husband and having to go through all of that. It feels good to know there are people who understand. As to the person who wonders how a person with a subpoena should "let it go" as I said. I am not talking about those people, I am talking about the people who are writing this thread. They have a legitimate right to be mad which I understand, if you aren't being sued though than you have no right talking about it or speculating on what Kathy would want.

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Postby Badger » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:58 pm

Jesus why don't you just leave it the fuck alone. <long post deleted>

Really, I don't care who you are. This is just starting to stink like rot.
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spectabillis
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Postby spectabillis » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:23 pm

hey now, lot of people could say the same thing about long running personal conflicts.

MemoryofKathy
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Postby MemoryofKathy » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:44 pm

I didn't start this damn thread, I am just defending my friend who isn't here to defend herself. To the guy who said why don't you just leave it alone? Eveyone said their piece and they didn't even know her or the family. It is only fair I get to post, and long, yes. It is a long story. If you want people to leave it alone, don't participate and don't post anymore. jesus

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Postby hunter S » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:19 pm

Memoryofkathy, maybe you don't know that every time you post it bumps this back to a current post! This issue was a dead post as of mid June until you chimed in.

may I suggest AGAIN! we all just let it go.

My last chime on this thread. I promise!
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Postby Norcal500 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:23 pm

[quote="hunter S"]Memoryofkathy, maybe you don't know that every time you post it bumps this back to a current post! This issue was a dead post as of mid June until you chimed in.

may I suggest AGAIN! we all just let it go.

My last chime on this thread. I promise![/quote]







Its my understanding that this is a public message board. Looks like everbody else had their opportunity to chime in old post or not.

I too was one of Kathy's friends and also memoryofkathy's husband. Most of you burning man people make me sick. I attended Kathy's funeral and when the so called burning man friends got up to say thier peace it started sounding like a frickin advertisment for burning man. I guess some b.m. people felt the need to defend the event at her funeral. That was extremely innapropriate and left a real bad taste in our mouths. Who cares about your stupid yuppyfest anyway. A girl died. a family member lost and all you can do is talk about how great an experience you had at burning man. How selfish. The whole thing sounds like a bad idea to me. A bunch of people on booze and drugs out in the middle of a desert with a bunch of rolling death traps zooming around. How safe does this really sound? Like said before I am surprised nothing like this has happened yet.

I doubt any of you really know the real details of the lawsuit. Don't you have anything better to do that speculate on something that does not even come close to concerning most of you. I do feel for you the people tied legally into this situation but can it really be as bad as losing a child or the death of a human bieng?

maybe the lawsuit should be aimed at the organizers of the event who carelessly put a festival of this size on in the middle of the desert. I can't believe a permit was issued for such an unregulated event. Think about the elements and the potential for disaster in the middle of the desert at night, far from help. what about sudden sand storms that make visibilty zero. add to that motor vehichles cruizing around with no streets to lead them in a defined path. add to that cars with backyard modifications and much excessive weight added to questionable cars to begin with, ontop of people running around on a variable plethora of drugs.

I say the whole event is a BAD IDEA !!! Can't you people expand your mind or discover yourself or enjoy flashing lights somewhere else and in a safer manner.

God bless Kathy and her family who's good name is bieng dragged through the dirt in this post. It was not her fault. She was simply a victim of bad circumstances.

I ask now what changes have been made to ensure this does not happen again? or are you burning man people too concerned about who is going to be in your camp next year and who is going to slap together the next "art car" to ride around on. Will it take a lawsuit to stop this from happening again and save a life ?
Down with Burning Man !!!!!!

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Postby regynalonglank » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:31 pm

i can't look away, it's like a train wreck. whew. begone bad vibey ones. let it rest. this is not helping anything or anyone. it's just ugly.

or maybe it's good for you to vent, who knows. usually venting just creates more bad feelings though. you don't empty the container. you fill it up more by spilling it out. but whatever works for you. i'm very sorry you feel the need to spread ugliness, it seems like enough is enough.
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Postby Badger » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:58 pm

She was simply a victim of bad circumstances.


Agreed.

So why not leave it at that. You'll get no resolution here.

No closure.

No salve for your grief and no balm for your pain. But you know that.

Can we stop turning and re-turning the soil. She is gone. She won't be back.

Give this thread the same rest that she deserves.

Can we end it here?
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Norcal500
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Postby Norcal500 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:27 pm

Lets just remember that I/we weren't the ones who started this topic.

With the internet, you can get something started with one or two comments, that'll take years to squash. the net effect of it can start rumors that just never go away.

It kinda strikes me as a little funny that when a few people start to make some kinda sense on a subject that nobody wants to talk about it anymore. Again I wasn't the one to bring it up but I'll sure as shit defend my friends honor even if it is some punk ass troll that cowards behind the anonymity of the internet.

Karma....would you say these same things directly to Kathy's mom or to kathy herself if she was here? You know you wouldn't. SHAME ON YOU !!!
just remember karma can be a bitch sometimes and comes back around to bite you in the ass.

I can leave it at that but not before I say what I say about the b.s. bieng spewed on this board.
Down with Burning Man !!!!!!

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Jordan 10-E
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Postby Jordan 10-E » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:46 pm

Norcal500.

So many broad sweeping generalizations. You approach is definately a throw the baby out with the bathwater kind of thing. It seems to me that you come from the viewpoint that people cannot be responsible for their own actions. Regulation or right out prohibition are the rules that govern.

For your information, this so called "unregulated" festival actually has a rule against getting on or off an moving art vehicle. It is printed in the survival guide handed to each and every person entering the event. They are asked to read it. It is also posted on the Burning Man website to view at any time. It also is often mentioned in the Jack Rabbit Speaks email newsletter. You might want to read it under Saftey in the online survival guide. http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... index.html

On top of this, common sense says not to jump off a moving vehicle. Sometimes people make choices without fully thinking through the idea. Sometimes even when you do think about it it STILL happens anyway. Life isnt always fair that way. Kathy made a choice, however concious or not, that lead to the very unfortunate event of her death. That is a tragedy for sure. However, it was her choice and all the information was "out there" for her to have utilized when making her decision. Seems to me that everything that could have been done to prevent her from jumping off a moving vehicle, short of someone personally going around and holding her hand or approving each and every choice she made, was done. The only other option is to get rid of the whole event, EVERYTHING, just because one person might do something against the rules or common sense or just have bad luck. Baby out with the bathwater.

In my opinion absolutes are often more dangerous than unregulated relativism. It doesn't take much searching in the historical record to see what kind of negative consequences come from some people's crusades to save the world from themselves. It is good to have some regulation toward public safety, but you cannot stop bad things from happening. Each year hundreds of thousands of people are killed or maimed in car accidents DESPITE driving and the auto industry being one of the most regulated areas known. All those situations are tragedies whether they were due to accident or negligence. But you don't hear anyone saying that we should BAN all driving beacuse that doesn't REALLY solve the problem now does it? Same thing with Burning Man. Your advocacy, "Down with Burning Man", is understandable in your hurt and anger but your quick jump of logic from A to Z without ever stopping inbetween is suspect.

I am very sorry that Kathy died. I remember hearing about it and feeling so bad. I suspect that everyone felt her loss to one degree or another. All those Burning Man people that you so easily blame for this probably wished that it hadn't happend either.

People aren't frustrated with those that are bringing the lawsuit because they are in pain, but because they (along with their lawyers) are just being litigious. The family, or you , may feel that we in the Burning Man community could care less about her death, which is absolutely false. Instead the negative opinons expressed on here are from those that DO care, but find themselves wondering how this lawsuit can honor her in death, or if the lawsuit is only for punitive reasons how it is really solving anything.?.

I feel for you and those close to this, but sometimes it is hard not to wonder why it is necessary to bring a lawsuit or advocate the need to stop thousands on thousands of other things just because of this one thing. Absolutes do not solve the life's ills and bad luck.
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Postby Norcal500 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:58 pm

But why even put a dance floor ontop of a car in the first place. I think common sense was mentioned earlier. What common sense tells a person to build a dancefloor ontop of a truck. I say that if your going to provide such a platform that the creator and co-creators must be held responsible for safety or fault. What happened to the all for one, one for all attitude that seems to be the motive at these events? I do appreciate the creativity but I think it is misdirected.

Of course we are all responsible for our actions but when the direct actions of another cause the death of another than YOU my friend are responsible. Its like if somebody pranced across my front lawn and tripped on my sprinkler and broke their neck. they would sue me the owner of the property. I believe the legal term is "neglect" If your child were to drown in a neighbors pool at a pool party I'd bet you would sue the owner of the house. Why is it any different here?

What happened here was an accident. They happen all the time. But someone provided the situation which lead to her death.

I don't know what the rules are in Nevada but in California you are not allowed to ride on the back or trunk of any car or anywhere but belted into a seat let alone on a dance floor ontop of a car. The following is a pic of the "art car " she fell off of. You can see that visibilty is damn near zero and it looks dangerous as all hell. People cut in and out from in front of these cars all night long out there. I'm sorry but motor vehicles, desert storms,pedestrians,darkness of night, dance floors and bicyclers don't mix well.
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Postby joel the ornery » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:05 pm

read your ticket

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Postby dj_john69 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:11 pm

Norcal500 wrote:
hunter S wrote:Memoryofkathy, maybe you don't know that every time you post it bumps this back to a current post! This issue was a dead post as of mid June until you chimed in.

may I suggest AGAIN! we all just let it go.

My last chime on this thread. I promise!








Its my understanding that this is a public message board. Looks like everbody else had their opportunity to chime in old post or not.

I too was one of Kathy's friends and also memoryofkathy's husband. Most of you burning man people make me sick. I attended Kathy's funeral and when the so called burning man friends got up to say thier peace it started sounding like a frickin advertisment for burning man. I guess some b.m. people felt the need to defend the event at her funeral. That was extremely innapropriate and left a real bad taste in our mouths. Who cares about your stupid yuppyfest anyway. A girl died. a family member lost and all you can do is talk about how great an experience you had at burning man. How selfish. The whole thing sounds like a bad idea to me. A bunch of people on booze and drugs out in the middle of a desert with a bunch of rolling death traps zooming around. How safe does this really sound? Like said before I am surprised nothing like this has happened yet.

I doubt any of you really know the real details of the lawsuit. Don't you have anything better to do that speculate on something that does not even come close to concerning most of you. I do feel for you the people tied legally into this situation but can it really be as bad as losing a child or the death of a human bieng?

maybe the lawsuit should be aimed at the organizers of the event who carelessly put a festival of this size on in the middle of the desert. I can't believe a permit was issued for such an unregulated event. Think about the elements and the potential for disaster in the middle of the desert at night, far from help. what about sudden sand storms that make visibilty zero. add to that motor vehichles cruizing around with no streets to lead them in a defined path. add to that cars with backyard modifications and much excessive weight added to questionable cars to begin with, ontop of people running around on a variable plethora of drugs.

I say the whole event is a BAD IDEA !!! Can't you people expand your mind or discover yourself or enjoy flashing lights somewhere else and in a safer manner.

God bless Kathy and her family who's good name is bieng dragged through the dirt in this post. It was not her fault. She was simply a victim of bad circumstances.

I ask now what changes have been made to ensure this does not happen again? or are you burning man people too concerned about who is going to be in your camp next year and who is going to slap together the next "art car" to ride around on. Will it take a lawsuit to stop this from happening again and save a life ?


I dont want to come off as an asshole...BUT people die at Burning Man. Ive had a couple of friends die over the 10 years i have attended. Hell, i wasnt too far from the spot where Kathy died that late night. Nobody expects to die, death happens. Dont go fucking knocking Burning Man for her death. It was an accident...accidents happen everyday involving death. Her (Kathy) death touched everyone that night. Word spread quickly about it. We were all saddened by her lose. Its too bad it happened the way it did but nobody can change that. I understand how you feel with BM approaching and dealing with the grief but coming on here talking shit to the open public on this board isnt helping your grief at all. Its only stirring up bad memories that you dont need. I hope that Kathys friends and family can make it through these tough times around her Bday and death.

~John

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Postby Badger » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:43 pm

With apologies beforehand I'll say that I'm not accusing, speculating, pointing fingers or casting aspersion on any new or old poster here. Anyone meandering into this hornet's nest has a right to say their piece no matter how biased or uninformed it may sound. That being said I'd ask that people keep in mind that often boards like this are used as a means of garnering information relevant to cases that are or may be in the process of being litigated. Specualtion can sometimes be seen as informed observation to an event such as a death or injury.

In fact, both individual and collective group opinions or points-of-view might be skimmed from boards such as this to buttress a a particualr argument in cases involving suits of many kinds.

I'd ask that some of the regular posters - regardless of where you stand on the issue - consider this when replying further to the recent reviving of this thread.

I certainly don't mean to diminish Norcal500's sense of loss or his/her belief that the event had something to do with Kathy Lampman's death. However, there's just something about the timing here that makes my stomach churn and my skin crawl. Call it a gut feeling but frankly I don't trust that this incitement - and it *is* incitement - is anything more than a fishing expedition by those who might possibly have something to gain out of this tragedy.

Norcal500, as much as I wish you'd get resolution around your sense of loss I don't think you'll find it here. If you need to shout into the wind then by all means shout and scream. Blame us. Blame Burningman. Blame Kathy's friends or blame God. You can do that here. Having said that I'd ask that others here consider the possibility that all might not be what it seems with this latest barrage of posts.

If this seems negative or callous of me I'll own up to it.

BTW, I neither speak for nor do I represent the the ideas, views, opinions or policies of the Burningman event.
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Postby Jordan 10-E » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:23 pm

Norcal500 wrote:But why even put a dance floor ontop of a car in the first place. I think common sense was mentioned earlier. What common sense tells a person to build a dancefloor ontop of a truck. I say that if your going to provide such a platform that the creator and co-creators must be held responsible for safety or fault. What happened to the all for one, one for all attitude that seems to be the motive at these events? I do appreciate the creativity but I think it is misdirected.

Of course we are all responsible for our actions but when the direct actions of another cause the death of another than YOU my friend are responsible. Its like if somebody pranced across my front lawn and tripped on my sprinkler and broke their neck. they would sue me the owner of the property. I believe the legal term is "neglect" If your child were to drown in a neighbors pool at a pool party I'd bet you would sue the owner of the house. Why is it any different here?

What happened here was an accident. They happen all the time. But someone provided the situation which lead to her death.

I don't know what the rules are in Nevada but in California you are not allowed to ride on the back or trunk of any car or anywhere but belted into a seat let alone on a dance floor ontop of a car. The following is a pic of the "art car " she fell off of. You can see that visibilty is damn near zero and it looks dangerous as all hell. People cut in and out from in front of these cars all night long out there. I'm sorry but motor vehicles, desert storms,pedestrians,darkness of night, dance floors and bicyclers don't mix well.
Image


It wasn't the dancefloor that did it or the pedestrians or the darkness of night or people cutting in and out or burning man or the people two miles away dancing or the guy taking the poor quality nighttime photo you posted or misdirected creativity or any of that. It was because Kathy choose to jump off a moving vehicle despite common sense and clearly stated and printed rules and regulations. The same rules that you are asking for. She made the choice. Not me, not you, not anyone else. No one pushed her. No one forced her. It wasn't anything intrinsic to the car itself but her own concious decision. So all your points don't really apply here do they? At best, they might be considered circumstantial, but again none of the aforementioned list of "circumstantial" things had anything to do with this situation.

"Neglect" is not at fault here. Often this neglect that you are referring to is merely a legal construct that is very often misused and abused by those seeking a monetary reward, especially the lawyers. Sometimes it is used legitimately, but often is used as a manipulative tool to get gain. Unfortunately, as in this case, those still living do those that have died a disservice by going through this process. I am not here to guess what the ultimate motivation is behind this lawsuit, but on the surface it seems to be more harm than good.
10E

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Postby hunter S » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:29 pm

What Badger said! Lets all let it lie! We all benefit from silence in this thread.
Objects behind you may appeare larger than reality!

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Jordan 10-E
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Postby Jordan 10-E » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:06 pm

I have said all I need to say. I will let it go now too. I hope the best for everyone.
10E

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Ron
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Postby Ron » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:12 pm

Hey, guys, the notion that the vacuous opinions presented here would ever make it past an objecting attorney or a judge with half an ounce of awareness is right up there with the one supporting that snowball in hell. There's nothing like either evidence or testimony going on here and I can't image it being used in trial to show negligence on the part of either the BMORG or the folk gettin' sued. Continuing to talk about what happened may very well be in the height of bad taste, it may show a lack of personal knowledge of this particular event, or death of a loved on in general, it may even be evidence of a lack of empathy and/or respect. But I don't believe it represents any real legal risk.

Having said that, I personally have nothing to say about this given death, other than to express my condolences to the survivors. I wasn't there, aren't part of the suit, and don't really have much else positive to add. But I am sorry as hell that she died and wish her friends and family the best recovery possible.

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Norcal500
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Postby Norcal500 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:52 pm

[quote="Jordan 10-E"][quote="Norcal500"]But why even put a dance floor ontop of a car in the first place. I think common sense was mentioned earlier. What common sense tells a person to build a dancefloor ontop of a truck. I say that if your going to provide such a platform that the creator and co-creators must be held responsible for safety or fault. What happened to the all for one, one for all attitude that seems to be the motive at these events? I do appreciate the creativity but I think it is misdirected.

Of course we are all responsible for our actions but when the direct actions of another cause the death of another than YOU my friend are responsible. Its like if somebody pranced across my front lawn and tripped on my sprinkler and broke their neck. they would sue me the owner of the property. I believe the legal term is "neglect" If your child were to drown in a neighbors pool at a pool party I'd bet you would sue the owner of the house. Why is it any different here?

What happened here was an accident. They happen all the time. But someone provided the situation which lead to her death.

I don't know what the rules are in Nevada but in California you are not allowed to ride on the back or trunk of any car or anywhere but belted into a seat let alone on a dance floor ontop of a car. The following is a pic of the "art car " she fell off of. You can see that visibilty is damn near zero and it looks dangerous as all hell. People cut in and out from in front of these cars all night long out there. I'm sorry but motor vehicles, desert storms,pedestrians,darkness of night, dance floors and bicyclers don't mix well.
[img]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/DianaP17/barcar.jpg[/img][/quote]

It wasn't the dancefloor that did it or the pedestrians or the darkness of night or people cutting in and out or burning man or the people two miles away dancing or the guy taking the poor quality nighttime photo you posted or misdirected creativity or any of that. It was because Kathy choose to jump off a moving vehicle despite common sense and clearly stated and printed rules and regulations. The same rules that you are asking for. She made the choice. Not me, not you, not anyone else. No one pushed her. No one forced her. It wasn't anything intrinsic to the car itself but her own concious decision. So all your points don't really apply here do they? At best, they might be considered circumstantial, but again none of the aforementioned list of "circumstantial" things had anything to do with this situation.

"Neglect" is not at fault here. Often this neglect that you are referring to is merely a legal construct that is very often misused and abused by those seeking a monetary reward, especially the lawyers. Sometimes it is used legitimately, but often is used as a manipulative tool to get gain. Unfortunately, as in this case, those still living do those that have died a disservice by going through this process. I am not here to guess what the ultimate motivation is behind this lawsuit, but on the surface it seems to be more harm than good.[/quote]




CHEERS !!!! heres to completely missing the point.

you build a dancefloor ontop of a car and someone dies trying to get off well that is neglect. Its outlined in the law books if you care to take a look. Maybe she needed to get off for an urgent reason. How was she supposed to let the driver know to stop. Where was the communication. Were there defined stops. was there a bathroom on board? What were the alleged three spotters at all times doing? I think these are all things that should have been thought out before the event to prevent something like this from happening but hindsight is 20/20. I know you will argue this with me till you are blue in the face because you want to defend your burning man event, but if the tables were turned and you were in our shoes I'll bet you would be singing a different tune......
Down with Burning Man !!!!!!

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Postby Badger » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:07 pm

<PLONK!>
.

Desert dogs drink deep.



Image

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Postby dj_john69 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:08 pm

Norcal500...your officially a fucking TOOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You say all these fucking worthless things about the art car that killed Kathy, MAYBE...she should have thought about that before getting on it. Why arent you blaming the person that gave Kathy the ticket to the festival ??

PEOPLE FUCKING DIE...at Burning Man or where ever. If she died at Disneyland...would you be stirring up a hornets nest with them ??

Get over it...she is dead. Quit being an asshole and go out and plant a tree or something productive. Your NOT making any friends around here...which is best for all. All your doing is making people UPSET with your words.

Norcal500
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Postby Norcal500 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:10 pm

you can call me silly names and be as insensitive as you like. its no skin off my back. I'm not looking for friends here. Somebody posted some bullshit for the world to read and everybody felt the need to chime in so here I go . I've never been one to go along with the herd mentality. I've made my point. If any of you jokers have something valid or accurate to say then bring it ....
Down with Burning Man !!!!!!


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