Lag screws vs everything else...

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qtip
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by qtip » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:01 pm

Has anybody used these for larger structures?

https://www.groundgrabba.com/product/gr ... 16fd43adaa

They seem like a cheaper version of the penetrator, but have fewer and coarser threads, a skinnier shaft, and only come in a max 2 ft length.

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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Ratty » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:07 pm

Wow. That price tag would scare me off. Seriously? Why would anyone buy those? They're three eights inch by 2 foot.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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Canoe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Canoe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:08 pm

Yup
Looks like it would be more than a little bendy (breaky) under a heavy load.
A long bare shank means the threads disturb the soil going in but don't leave threads grabbing it for much of the length.
But might work well in some soils.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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qtip
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by qtip » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:20 pm

Good points, thinking about it a bit more I think my main concern would be the shaft breaking due to high torques during installation. Oh well, we are looking for less expensive options to anchor our art piece but will probably bite the bullet and get the penetrator anchors.

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Canoe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Canoe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:25 pm

qtip wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:20 pm
... Oh well, we are looking for less expensive options to anchor our art piece but will probably bite the bullet and get the penetrator anchors.
Make sure you consider: holding it up/down, wind loads, climbing loads.
You're not the first to anchor an art piece. See what others did.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

qtip
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by qtip » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:15 pm

Canoe wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:25 pm
qtip wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:20 pm
... Oh well, we are looking for less expensive options to anchor our art piece but will probably bite the bullet and get the penetrator anchors.
Make sure you consider: holding it up/down, wind loads, climbing loads.
You're not the first to anchor an art piece. See what others did.
Yeah, I'm an engineer and we are definitely looking at all of the worst case load combinations. I was mainly interested in seeing whether anybody had used that cheaper piece of hardware, most of the larger installations seem to use the penetrator anchors and there is at least some data on the strength of those.

dkanter
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by dkanter » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:59 am

BBadger wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:49 am
You probably don't need the 1/2" lag screws, but any normal impact driver/wrench should be able to drive those in.
For example, would these 3/8" drivers work?
https://www.harborfreight.com/power-too ... 68099.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/power-too ... 64197.html

Just want to make sure I have the correct tools :)

LowePro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by LowePro » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:39 am

We tested a black and Decker that worked fine for lag bolts, and has warranty and better price than those harbor freight ones. Not a super high end tool but does the job on playa. Pm me if you'd like

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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Ratty » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:06 am

I bought a whole set of Ryobi, (Home Depot Brand), tools for $200 at xmas. The driver worked great. the set came with 2 batteries. Using those new tools all the time for household and yard work.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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Papa Bear
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Papa Bear » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:10 pm

I have not heard good things about the cordless Harbor Freight models for playa lag screw use.

That said, their 1/2" corded model that sells for around $35 during many of their sales has done well for me for the past 5 years.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by dkanter » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:26 pm

Thanks to LowePro and Papa Bear for chiming in (PS: Papa Bear, I think you were our placer the last few years, see ya in a few months!!! :) )

LowePro pointed me towards https://www.theplayalabs.com/lags which has a good discussion of lag bolts.

I am probably getting a cordless Black and Decker (with extra battery), and then a corded Harbor Freight as back up. I will get the chucks and sockets locally to ensure they fit.

For those wondering, I bought a single lag screw and have two chain links. Once we order the impact driver, we will test it out here to ensure everything works as planned. Then we will adjust as needed, and then order a full box of lag screws. I expect we will need 2-3 months lead time to test and get all the chains (which can be time consuming).

I am most worried about getting chains that fit correctly, so I am testing and acquiring the chain links locally. I believe we will need 1/2" chains, but we might be able to get away with smaller ones.

DoctorIknow
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by DoctorIknow » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:06 pm

dkanter wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:26 pm
I am most worried about getting chains that fit correctly, so I am testing and acquiring the chain links locally. I believe we will need 1/2" chains, but we might be able to get away with smaller ones.
Chain lengths are tried and true winners, but 3/4" mule tape works fine. Tested for the last two burns in three different camps. Cheaper by far and way too much time on chains no matter how you cut the links.

Also, a friend of mine who knows these things 'cause of his livelihood, told me to go for the Harbor Freight impact sockets. I bought a set (look for their sales) and have had no problems on or off the playa.

See this link for stats about chain costs and photo of how to use mule tape:

https://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic ... e#p1152186

LowePro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by LowePro » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:02 am

Hey, you can put a heavy duty washer on the lag first, then the chain link. That way you don't have to find an exact fit in the size of the chain.

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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Ratty » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:15 am

I agree with the doctor. Those heavy, costly, time consuming links are overkill. Unless you're putting up a 100 foot circus tent, mule tape does the job.
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Just_Joe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Just_Joe » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 am

+1 for chain.

One item keep track of/failure point instead of two (washer + chunk of mule tape).
....which raises the question, if you're using mule tape as your guy line, why bother with the little loop?
In either case, I'd be concerned about tape abrading over time against a possible sharp washer edge. Chain links are smoother.

Lag screw and 1st chain link can be driven slightly subgrade. I wouldn't want to sink muletape into playa (abrasion)

Most of my chain links came from scraps laying around. If slightly small, I put it in a vise lengthwise and gave it a squeeze to widen. I typically only have two links on a screw.

DoctorIknow
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by DoctorIknow » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:19 pm

Hi Joe,

I hear you on all points, and I'll try to point out that mule tape might not be for everybody. Indeed, I was hesitant to post about the use of mule tape to replace chain links because it is not a panacea-ic solution for many people.
Just_Joe wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 am

... if you're using mule tape as your guy line, why bother with the little loop?
I initially thought "that loop" had to potential to be the fail point.
line-abrasion-jpg.jpg
The best knots are made to lessen stress on the line, as opposed to the above pic. How would mule tape on mule tape hold up, because as Joe said "Chain links are smoother." One of the greatest things about mule tape is that it is very slippery. Therefore, the abrasion possible in that photo is much less than with any other kind of line I can think of.
Just_Joe wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 am
...I'd be concerned about tape abrading over time against a possible sharp washer edge.
I've looked very carefully at the mule tape when tearing down shade structures that have been tossing and turning all week, and it is close to non-existant. Only a few of the thousands of hair thickness strands were broken. I, too, sink my lags a little below the surface. To be extra safe and save time, I simply cut the "loops" during teardown and make new ones the next year.
Just_Joe wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 am
If slightly small, I put it in a vise lengthwise and gave it a squeeze to widen. I typically only have two links on a screw.
It is nice to have a vise that can handle that...but beware anyone who buys what looks like a great vise and then breaks it doing a squeeze like that. There are so many ways, explained in this thread, of how to cut chain...all of them work, and of course a newbie can go there, but the only reason I'm in this thread at all is because I got fed up with rebar year after year after year, with more rebar every year. And after a year with lag screws, I got sick of making new chain links.

Mule tape warning:

The biggest problem with mule tape, is not mule tape, but people who don't have a clue of how to tie a proper knot. Because the mule tape is so slippery, the old "granny" knot, or "this should work" won't cut it with mule tape.

If one can't master a square knot, bowline, and truckers hitch, just forget using mule tape. I've had people wanting to help who can't reliably tie a square knot (it's more of an accident when they do it correctly). "Knot people" say a square knot is not the right one for mule tape, but I found in my "loops" that it is fine and once tight, will not slip.

As simple as this knot is, if one can't repeatedly do it with eyes closed, don't use mule tape to replace chain links:
square knot.png
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BBadger
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by BBadger » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:49 pm

Hmm, I might check out the mule tape method, especially if a simple square knot is sufficient to keep it looped. I didn't find cutting chain links was too terrible with a bolt cutter, but my links were not made of as high-quality chain as those mentioned earlier, and I only used two links per screw.
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Canoe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Canoe » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:59 pm

DoctorIknow wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:11 am
...
As anyone using chain links knows, it is a pain in the ass, no matter what tools you use, to cut the chain into a three link piece.
...
Most bicycle theives should be able to do that for you in seconds.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Toe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Toe » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:24 pm

For chain, I kept the cut piece from each segment. (make one cut per link and bend it open) These pieces make handy hooks for guy lines. They also fit over lags that are a little too thick.

Yes, they're not as strong.
No, strength hasn't been an issue.


To cut chain like this, use the type of compact box-shaped chain cutter typically mounted on the wall of a hardware store. Cut through and then keep cranking until the link is splayed open and you can get the adjoining links out.

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Papa Bear
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Papa Bear » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:02 am

dkanter wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:26 pm
(PS: Papa Bear, I think you were our placer the last few years, see ya in a few months!!! :) )
Nope, I can guarantee I wasn't. There's more than one of us out there, which occasionally causes confusion, but after 16 years I don't feel like changing it up.

That said, who knows - we just might see each other out there. :)

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