Deep cycle batteries

[jbelson]

Okay, here's the trailer, all tricked out.

http://www.ofoto.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?& ... rt_order=0

thanks for everyone's advice. Hopefuly I can mix you a jack and coke on the playa, or just a coke, or just a jack, or just give you a cup and let you do the mixing. Wait, now I'm all mised up.

[Captain Goddammit]

COOL! I'll be looking for you, look for me on my boat (the one in my avatar).

[Bob A]

Looks good, I like the flames. I'm jealous, I never had the chance to paint mine, well maybe next year. See yopu out there.

Bob A

[Sync]

I am confused about the battery and inverter thing. I’m going to be running a small art car based on an electric wheelchair frame. It will recharge the batteries for the motors from the inverter on board from any 120v AC plug, and there is a 1200 watt inverter in the rig to run some of the lighting on it connected to a separate 12volt marine battery.

So, if I get the drift of this correctly, the 1200 watt inverter can be connected to my car battery, which can then be connected to a standard battery charger, that will charge the 12 volt marine battery? And, the inverter can then also charge the chair batteries from one of it’s plugs?

If so, what are the up and down sides to doing it this way? Thanks.

[Bob A]

I am confused about the battery and inverter thing. I’m going to be running a small art car based on an electric wheelchair frame. It will recharge the batteries for the motors from the inverter on board from any 120v AC plug, and there is a 1200 watt inverter in the rig to run some of the lighting on it connected to a separate 12volt marine battery.

So, if I get the drift of this correctly, the 1200 watt inverter can be connected to my car battery, which can then be connected to a standard battery charger, that will charge the 12 volt marine battery? And, the inverter can then also charge the chair batteries from one of it’s plugs?

If so, what are the up and down sides to doing it this way? Thanks.

OK so let me re state this so I think I understand what you are doing.

The wheel chairs guts are self contained and has a AC plug for recharging it, correct.

And when you say car battery you are not talking about the marine battery in the art car. You want to use your car battery to run the 1200 watt inverter then run AC off of that inverter to run a standard AC battery charger to charge the Marine battery in the art car and also plug in the ac plug from the wheel chair guts to charge its battery. So if all this is right here is the answer.

Yes you could do this electronicly you are correct. you would have probably 10%-20% lost of efficaintcy converting the car battery power to AC and then running it through the charger to get into the Marine battery & wheel chair battery. But it would get the power in there and since you need to push with a higher voltage you do need some variation of this to charge that marine battery. And of course the wheel chair needs that ac plug and probably is the easyist way to charge that.

Now the down side, Do you plan on driving your car home when you leave? The car battery is not designed for repeated deep discharges so if you do this every day to recharge you art vehicle you will have a broken battery by the end of the week. Also the car battery has no more power in it then the marine battery, probably less, and then add in the wheel chair system and subtract 20% for the power conversion loss and your car battery won't pull this off even once on its own. You can run your car to recharge the car battery, but alternators don't charge at their best rate at idle they do thier best charging at road speeds. So you would need to suck down the car battery as far as you can leaving you enough for one last start and then idle it for, I don't know maybe 3- 5 hours to fill it back up or drive it around for an hour ( a no no at BRC). And those deep discharges will sill do major damage to the car battery, if not now maybe six months latter. You would also run out of gas also leaving you stuck.

The rest of you idea is great but you need a better source of recharge power. The first best one would be find a nearby camp or RV with a genny and ask them if you can plug in. You would plug into this for AC for your wheel chair and battery charger and about 1 - 1.5 hours latter you would have a good charge. This would depend on the size of the charger you bought and how long the wheel chair system is designed to charge. You could charge the marine and partially charge the wheel chair, un dock from you neighbor and finish the wheel chair charge off of your newly charge marine battery.

Other option buy one of those great quit yamaha or honda super quiet gennys everyone is always talking about here.

The last option would be get some solar panels to recharge the marine battery, but this will cost you a chunk of change compared to one and maybe option two.

Bob A

[Sync]

Humm...not have to go home .....tempting. I don't think I'm going to be able to come up with another seven hundred or so for a gen. These are my first postings here, is there any area where people connect to share resources where I could ask if anyone wants to negotiate for re-charge privaleges? Thanks.

[Bob A]

Humm...not have to go home .....tempting. I don't think I'm going to be able to come up with another seven hundred or so for a gen. These are my first postings here, is there any area where people connect to share resources where I could ask if anyone wants to negotiate for re-charge privaleges? Thanks.

There are a lot of people who might be willing to let you plug in. If they already have their genny running to a certain point it doesn't cost them much more unless they are running near max. One that is only idling can take a little more load with out using much more gas.

Last year I remember a couple of people who just had cords running out to the street with signs free power. Not that, that would be the best way for you. If you are part of a theme camp they might have a little power grid of their own, and let you plug in.

But now I realize your question was were to ask for this trade. Duh I'm a little slow. I would start a new thread some thing to the effect have art car need electric power willing to share. Or some such thing. I would say try either the them camp section under 2005 event or share resources under preparation I would lean to theme camp I think it’s more active and one of the camps might adopt you. Don't cross post it that will just put people in a bad mood, but you should get an answer. Some one might even answer you in this tread too.

If you end up any where near me I'd let you charge off me. I'm going to have my camper there again this year which has solar cells 4 golf cart batteries big ass inverter and this year the whole thing has been moved to an old RV. So there is a built in genny which I don't want to turn on, but would be willing to for a cause such as this.

bob A

[robotland]

I discovered a great little 12V battery at Gander Mountain, in the fishing department- (for a trolling motor-) Under 20 clams, and comes with its own little charger! About the size of two Spam cans side-by-side. Not enough to run a vehicle, but you can run a lot of blinkylights for a long time! I refitted an old cordless drill case with a wiring harness to hold two of 'em in parallel, with a power switch and extension cord, and can run yards of EL, a bunch of automotive LEDs and a beacon for the entire event if I remember to turn off at sunrise!

[Mister Jellyfish Mister]

I am confused about the battery and inverter thing. I’m going to be running a small art car based on an electric wheelchair frame. It will recharge the batteries for the motors from the inverter on board from any 120v AC plug, and there is a 1200 watt inverter in the rig to run some of the lighting on it connected to a separate 12volt marine battery.

So, if I get the drift of this correctly, the 1200 watt inverter can be connected to my car battery, which can then be connected to a standard battery charger, that will charge the 12 volt marine battery? And, the inverter can then also charge the chair batteries from one of it’s plugs?

If so, what are the up and down sides to doing it this way? Thanks.

You need to hook up with Mr. Fixit. Not only is he specializing this year in mutant vehicles based on electric wheelchairs, but his HotWheels Camp is the ONLY theme camp currently allowed on the BRC electric grid. Dig his website and give him a buzz at
http://groups.msn.com/HotWheelzCamp
He also needs help locating parts and chairs for his work. Good luck!

[Sync]

Thanks, sent him an e-mail and am going to see about his project, looks like one of the coolest things to do for people at BM. Maybe I can be of some help, even if just to loan out my buggy for transportation.

[soundcolor]

Hi. I posted this question elsewhere, but this looks like a better forum... I need some help figuring out what I'm doing wrong with this little spread sheet I'm trying to make to calculate the amount of time I can run my LED lights on various car batteries via an inverter. If I get it working, I'd be happy to post it for others!

Here's the rought draght:, but I can't get the results to match the predictions. http://www.soundcolor.net/amp_hours_calculator.xls

As I understand it, the general formula is Qantity * watts * 1.4 (inverter waste) / 12 Volts = Amp Draw * Hours Needed = Amp Hours needed.

If I use only LED bulbs or christmass light strings, most of them are about 2.4 Watts.

Formula 1) What is the correct formula to tell me how long I can run ONE 2.4 Watt light using ONE of each of these 12 volt batteries: 160 aH, 120 aH, 10 aH? (So, 3 answers to this... and we can account for inverter waste by multiplying by 1.4... somewhere.... I think...)

Formula 2) Conversely, HOW MANY 2.4 Watt lights can I run for 9 hours for 3 nights using ONE of each of these 12 volt batteries: 160 aH, 120 aH, 10 aH? How many for 4 nights?

The 10 aH is for my bike and will be used only in transit. I'm hoping I can just get one more of these (for a total of two) and have 2 lights on my bike, though I realize I may need to go down to just one. They are deep cycle batteries by the way. Except for the little one.

I'm hoping I can get away with at least 6-9 lights at camp (two 160 aH batteries) and 3-7 lights at the art piece (two 120 aHbatteries)--without recharge for 6-7 nights.

THANK YOU SOOOOOOOO MUCH FOR ANY ADVICE!!!!

[phil]

I need some help figuring out what I'm doing wrong with this little spread sheet I'm trying to make to calculate the amount of time I can run my LED lights on various car batteries via an inverter.

Check this page and see if it tells you what you need to know:
http://www.cieux.com/bm/chargingSystems.html

[Elemental666]

I'd like to make a battery box that I can charge off of PV or Gennies during the day and power lights silently at night. I know how to size my load to make sure I have enough battery power to last a day or two before needing recharged. What I need help with is how to wire the batteries so that multiple batteries act as one (parallel or series?), how to set it up so it can be plugged into either/or or both, put a meter that will show the total charge and assemle all the bit an pieces... Do i need to vent Deep Cycle batteries?

Anyhow, if some one could point me in the right direction, that's all I ask...

soon...

[HughMungus]

Okay, here's the trailer, all tricked out.

http://www.ofoto.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?& ... rt_order=0

Nice.

[Bob A]

I'd like to make a battery box that I can charge off of PV or Gennies during the day and power lights silently at night. I know how to size my load to make sure I have enough battery power to last a day or two before needing recharged. What I need help with is how to wire the batteries so that multiple batteries act as one (parallel or series?), how to set it up so it can be plugged into either/or or both, put a meter that will show the total charge and assemle all the bit an pieces... Do i need to vent Deep Cycle batteries?

Anyhow, if some one could point me in the right direction, that's all I ask...

soon...

Well I'll give you some advice.

By venting I am assuming you mean vent the case the batteries are in. Yes you should vent the enclosure a little bit. Batteries can out gas and that is bad if allowed to collect. Also don't keep the batteries in your camper or tent. The gas is poisonous. Now don't go crazy with the vents because you will be just letting in more playa dust and that is bad for the batteries.

How you wire the batteries will depend on the type and how many. I am also assuming you are looking for 12 volts to run your stuff. So if you are running 2 general purpose deep cycle batteries that are putting out 12volts each you would run these in parallel. That is plus to plus and neg to neg. If you are using golf cart batteries or other 6 volt batteries you would run two of these in series. neg to pos with the other two leads going to your load. Series will always add the voltages together and parallel will and the amp hours together (how long they runand how much power they have).

As far as a meter the simplest thing will be a multi meter checking voltage. It's not perfect but as the batteries discharge the voltage will start to slip. On a fully charged battery it will be some where between 12. Something and 13. something. As the battery drains it will drop. How low I can't tell you, but somewhere around 11.5 you would want to recharge. Deep cycle can handle deep discharges much better than car type batteries but you don't want to push them if you don't have to, so recharge every day if you can. You will get many more years out of the batteries.

Also try to get a multi stage charger if you can. The basic car battery charger will work but they are usually dumb and just push the voltage in at one level. A multi stage looks at the battery and charges accordingly. This is better for the battery and causes less out gassing (which results in water loss).

Oh and you can charge your batteries all at once while they are still connected. As long as it is a 12 volt system you have set up. Both will charge evenly, which is ideal for the safety of the system.

Bob A

[phil]

What I need help with is how to wire the batteries so that multiple batteries act as one (parallel or series?)

There is a diagram of sorts earlier in the thread. If you haven't read all the posts, I'd suggest going through them for much helpful information.

As to series and parallel, "multiple batteries act as one" doesn't tell me which you need. Think of a flashlight -- a tube you drop a couple of AA batteries in. The first battery goes in with the plus terminal first (the end with the little nipple). The second battery goes in the same way, it's positive terminal butting up against the negative terminal of the first. Then you screw the cap on. Each battery is 1.5V and 1 amp/hour. By putting them in this way, they are in series. You have added voltages, but not amp/hours. So you have an output of 3V, but still 1Ah. The positive terminal of the first battery rests against the base of the lamp. The negative terminal of the second battery is against a little spring in the cap of the flashlight. This spring has a wire that runs to a switch that you slide back and forth. When the switch is on, the circuit is completed from the negative terminal of the second battery to the side of the lamp. The lamp lights, powered by 3VDC.

Now imagine a small AM/FM radio which also takes 2 AA batteries. However, instead of dropping them into the tube, you put them in side by side, with the positive terminals toward the top of the radio. These batteries are in parallel. Instead of adding the voltage, you've added the amp/hours. You get 1.5V, but you get 2Ahs of capacity from the batteries. So the radio runs longer than it would have with only one battery.

If you're wiring two 6V, 100Ah golf cart batteries, and you want 12V, you need to wire them in series. Let's say you have an inverter with a red post (positive) and a black post (negative) to hook wires up to. You put a wire from the positive terminal of one of the batteries (let's call it battery Alpha) to the negative terminal of the other battery (battery Beta). You then run a wire from the negative terminal of Alpha to the black post of the inverter and a wire from the positive terminal of Beta to the red post of the inverter. You then have 12V going into the inverter, and the batteries have a capacity of 100Ah (you should never deplete them _fully_, but that's another post).

On the other hand, if you have two 12V batteries at 100Ah each, and you want to have them last longer, you need to add capacities, so connect them in parallel. You still get 12V, though. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

Is this what you're asking about making the batteries act as one? My confusion is that I think they act as one in series and in parallel, but you add different things (voltage or capacity).

To remember series and parallel, remember the batteries in the flash light. When you draw a line through each battery, you get one long line from the batteries in series. In the little radio, the batteries are next to each other, with the positives at the same end. Draw a line through each battery, and you have two lines in parallel. (The downside is some devices have the batteries side by side, one pointing up and the other down -- these are in series. So if that's confusing, come up with you're own device. :->)

[Elemental666]

Yes I want to keep my voltage (12v) and have multiple batteries give me more Amp Hours. So I'd go parallel ( + to +, - to -). I could then take the leads of the last battery to my load, again + to + - to -. Am I correct that if i'm using 120v stuff, like lights and what not, with a 12v battery then 10Ah @12v = 1Ah@120v?

So, I could build a box that could hold say 6 batteries, but only put two in, connected in parallel, I could then add more batteries to get more time. I simply hook this up to a multistage charger running off my gennie to charge the system.

When I use a multimeter to check the charge in the system I go from pos of the first battery to the neg of the last battery or does that matter?


BTW, thanks for the replies, I've wanted to setup a silent powerbox to carry in my truck for a while. now I want to make one for burningman too, so it's high time I get this stuff straight. You guys rock. I should hang around the AEZ camp for a day and see what I can glean from them huh?

[capjbadger]

Yes I want to keep my voltage (12v) and have multiple batteries give me more Amp Hours. So I'd go parallel ( + to +, - to -). I could then take the leads of the last battery to my load, again + to + - to -. Am I correct that if i'm using 120v stuff, like lights and what not, with a 12v battery then 10Ah @12v = 1Ah@120v?

Oh dear gods no... heh Batteries put out power in DC (direct current). Things like house lights and such (anything you'd plug into a wall socket) is AC power (alternating current). One will not power the other without a converter or an inverter (except in some very rare cases).

No, you can't pull the power out quicker like that. You could pull more AMPS out over a shorter time, say 10amps @ 12v for 10hrs = 100amps @12v for 1 hour. You can't pull more volts like that though.

And there is a second problem. That example above isn't really possible either. There is a formula to figure out how the conversion really works. In simple terms, the faster you pull the amps, the less actual amp hours you get. The real output of the example above would actualy be something closer to: 10amps @ 12v for 10hrs = 100amps @ 12v for 10minutes (this is just a VERY rough example, you you get the idea).

Badger

[Elemental666]

So i need an inverter for the 120v circuit, can I just split the outfeed and have a 12v connection and the other end go to the inverter?

A hell, I just need to buy a good Alternative energy book...

any suggestions?

[capjbadger]

So i need an inverter for the 120v circuit, can I just split the outfeed and have a 12v connection and the other end go to the inverter?

A hell, I just need to buy a good Alternative energy book...

any suggestions?

Correct.
Yeah, you can run a wire to you're 12v stuff right from your battery bank, and another wire from the battery bank to an inverter that puts out 120vAC.

Honestly, if you're looking for lighting and such, I'd look into 12v lighting systems. Inverters take power to change the DC to AC, so you lose power there. Its more efficent to just go straight 12v DC if you can. Personly I pass on these LED systems and go with "Cold Cathode" light (the same type computer geeks use to light the inside of thier cases). They look like skinny florecent tube and put out more light per amp than anything else I've seen. You can get them is lots of colors (even blacklight! ) and you can get them fairly cheap if you know where to look. The cheapest I've found is at EL Wire Cheap . I'd skip the "Smart lighting system" and just go with some inverters (yes, more inverters. heh The tube technicaly run off of AC. The little inverter changes the 12vDC to high voltage AC for the tube) and the white 16.5 inch long tube in the "blowout" section.

Read thier Cold Cathode FAQ. it will give you all the info you need about setting up these things. They are very easy to use and pretty sturdy (just don't wack a fly on one. Opps.. lol ). The only real "technical" warning is the inverters WILL DIE if you get the positive and negitive switched to the inverter. When I get my inverters, I hook the wires up to those Molex computer conectors (the ones in computers that supply power to the hard drive and such) and to the power supply wires. They only fit one way so I can't accidently get the pos and neg switched. Plus it just makes setting up and taking down the system a snap.

Other than that, easy.

Badger

[Elemental666]

I'd skip the "Smart lighting system" and just go with some inverters (yes, more inverters. heh The tube technicaly run off of AC. The little inverter changes the 12vDC to high voltage AC for the tube) and the white 16.5 inch long tube in the "blowout" section.

Hello, can i get just those inverters and make my own lights?

Problem is I don't have the budget to replace the lights I have now. I have 120v lights in an unbelievable quatity. Think National Lampoon, then apply it to the real world... That's my father with holiday decorations... I really can here his meter running in the rents bedroom at christmas. Its disgusting, but oh so valubale a resource for blinking things and interesting parts...

Like those little fans that inflate the ballon type decorations... Kill the decoration, but kindly that's decent material... ya know...

Anyhow, I have some "homegrown" things like that in the parts pile... but its all 120v. If I can get itty bitty inverters and just soder them in or something, then I can go all sorts of nuts... seems easier just to get the inverter for the powerbox and have the necessary connections available...

maybe next year, I'll make sure to check out whats on the playa tho, for sure..

[phil]

Am I correct that if i'm using 120v stuff, like lights and what not, with a 12v battery then 10Ah @12v = 1Ah@120v?

AC power is measured in watts, and DC capacity is measured in amps per hour, so you need to convert watts that your AC stuff burns up to amps in your batteries:
Amps = watts / volts

If you're running a 60W lamp, for example, through an inverter from your 12VDC battery, you'd say 60W / 12V = 5 Amps. You'll have some loss from the inverter, maybe 15% depending on the quality of the inverter, maybe more, maybe less. So every hour you burn that lamp, you draw 5 amps from your battery, plus some loss for the inverter.

This page
http://bart.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/12volt/12volt.htm
is aimed at RVers, but much of the information carries over. He also has a good diagram on connecting multiple batteries in series and in parallel. See also
http://del.icio.us/philip/batteries
for links to more battery pages.

[capjbadger]

Hello, can i get just those inverters and make my own lights?

Not that I'm aware of. I'm not sure what the actual output of those little inverters are, but if I had to guess, I'd bet they won't run a normal 120v 60Hz light. I'm pretty sure they are "tuned" specificly for the cold cathodes.

Problem is I don't have the budget to replace the lights I have now. I have 120v lights in an unbelievable quatity.... <snip>

I looked at the current prices for the tubes and the inverters. You can get 10 of the 16.5 inch white tubes for $18 and the dual inverters (powers 2 tubes) are $4.50 a piece. Five of those to power the 10 tubes, you'd be looking at $40.50 + 6.50 shipping = $47.00

I don't know if that is out of your budget. Plus 10 of those tube would be a metric ass load of light. heh

maybe next year, I'll make sure to check out whats on the playa tho, for sure..

Feel free to stop by my dome (17' dia, 2v) and I'll show you what I have set up (I'll show you the solar power swamp cooler I built too. lol) I'll have the Badger flag flying (I'll post a pic of it once it's done )

Badger

[unjonharley]

I have a 750 watt inverter. It will power 10 75watt bulbs but not for long. not a big enough battery.

[Bob A]

Yea those inverters are special for their use. What you want for an inverter is a basic one you can buy at any auto store radio shack or a dozen other places. They come with a couple of 120ac plugs just like your house and you just plug you lights in.

If you are going to be buying both an inverter and charger to run off you gennie you may want to think of buying an inverter charger combo. IT will charge your batteries when the gennie is on and make ac power for your needs when the gennie is off. You can find these at most RV web sites. The chargers are multi stage and designed exactly for this use. Keep it out of the playa dust tho, or you will be bringing home a dead brick. Also make sure you vent the inverter / charger they give off a lot off heat when working.

But I will warn you like everybody else has, you will loose 10 -20 % in the inverting and those a/c 120 lights suck up the most power. But if your idea is to run quiet as long as possible and keep you gennie off your idea will work.

Also make sure you buy a big enough inverter. An example I've got a 400 watt inverter in my car for my ipod. Paid about $30.00 for. Now if I were running house bulbs on it, 4 100 watt bulbs would finish it off. Those ac Christmas lights may take as much as 60 - 100 watts, even those twinkle lights use a lot of power when all together in a string.

Bob A

[unjonharley]

I just wreaked out a trailer. Saved the inverter. Trouble is I don't have any thing to power it. I'm running a car alt.w/4.0 horse engine. So it will charge two deep cell batts. But how much gas running time to full charge is still unknown. Pretty quiet too.

[soundcolor]

New spread sheet tool for amp hours conversions for you:

http://www.soundcolor.net/amp_hours_calculator.xls

I hope the math is correct. It looks right to me but I haven't tested it yet. If anyone finds it useful and gets results they know to be correct, please let me know.

Happy AC/DC inverting!

[Elemental666]

Ok ok, I can't get my mind of this. So here's what i've gathered so far, please check me:

Load: 4x 40w bulbs, 10-15 50 bulbs xmas light strings, small fan (I'll have to look for the power rating on it)

If I got 2 6v batteries in series and an 750w continuous inverter to comprise the battery box. A decent multiphase charger for charging.

how does Cold Cranking Amps relate to Amp Hours? I haven't had a lot of luck get Amp Hour specs on the deep cycle batteries I've seen so far.

[HughMungus]

Ok ok, I can't get my mind of this. So here's what i've gathered so far, please check me:

Load: 4x 40w bulbs, 10-15 50 bulbs xmas light strings, small fan (I'll have to look for the power rating on it)

If I got 2 6v batteries in series and an 750w continuous inverter to comprise the battery box. A decent multiphase charger for charging.

how does Cold Cranking Amps relate to Amp Hours? I haven't had a lot of luck get Amp Hour specs on the deep cycle batteries I've seen so far.

I'm still learning this stuff but in the past week I've bought a battery, an inverter, and a charger (to charge from our generator when we run the generator). I learned most of what I needed to know here: http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm What I *do* know is that cold cranking amps are for starting and have little to nothing to do with amp-hours (unless someone knows of a secret formula I don't know about).

I bought this battery: http://store.solar-electric.com/pvx-1285.html 85 amp-hours at $150 + $25 for shipping. I'd tried going to a few local stores to find deep cycles but all I could find were automotive and marine batteries.

[capjbadger]

If it says cold cranking amps, it's not a deep cycle battery. Its either a car or marine battery. 6v golf cart batteries are deep cycle.