Why are you an atheist?

[geekster]

Sure, many don't need that. But some need that little extra suppor they find there. Now I don't believe the bible's creation story literally. That story has several specific purposes. Firstly humans are curious and were bound to ask "where did the earth come from" so it provided an answer to that. But there are also concepts behind some of the story that are important in life. For example, the concept that one can not really sin unless they know the difference between right and wrong. There is no sin on Earth until the occupants of the garden partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That basic concept is important. It allows one to forgive what might be seen as a crime by someone who is aware of a law or rule or cultural tradition but allows forgiveness for someone ignorant of it. They don't sin until they are aware, then it become sin.

Basically the abrahamic religions are a set of guidelines (often abused by individual humans in the past in order to secure their own personal power and status) that allow people to have a society and to act within certain boundaries even when nobody is watching them through the creation of the omnipotent boogieman who watches them all the time and will cause them to account after death. In other words, its a sutvellance camera and jury that is impossible to escape or lie to. It enforces certain standards of social behavior that allows a basic society to develop.

In short, religion was the original government that spanned a culture over centuries regardless of who was in charge of the secular government but often the administrative government derived its legitimacy from God (European monarchs for example). A country that exercised a certain religion would have a certain amount of cultural commonality with another culture sharing the same religion even a thousand miles away.

I believe Earth accreted from space dust. But what caused the big bang? What caused all of existance to appear out of nothing in an instant? Who the hell knows. Maybe it was some way intelligent thingamabob flicking the fabric of spacetime with a noodly member.

I believe being aware of the teachings of religions is basically a good thing. There is a reason they survived so many millenia while individual nations and systems of government have risen and fallen. My kids are exposed to the concepts early but we are not regular church goers by any means. I at least need them to know what I mean when I say "goddamn it"

[HughMungus]

Because you haven't convinced me of anything.

I don't need to. Besides, you don't have the tools to comprehend what I've said anyway. So it's kind of like explaining physics to my cat.[/quote]

Yep. Everyone who disagrees with you must be too dumb to understand. Great debating skills you got thre.

[HughMungus]

I might change that tune if God appeared before me

So you're saying that it is possible that there is a god?

[geekster]

Also, when looked at as a system of government, the abrahamic religions also performed another function. The "holy word" served the function of providing ancient and irrefutable legal precident for such things as murder, theft, perjury, etc.

ADDED:

Another thing it provided is a concept of something larger than the individual person. Larger than even the King or Queen. A set of laws that outranked any human being. Murder was murder and it was wrong no matter what and one would be eventually held to account for it in the afterlife no matter what any human said to them. At the time it was a pretty important provider of basic moral values. It still can be if it is seen for what it is: a collection of concepts that allow people to live together when not abused and twisted by individual humans and not taken too literally.

[Rob the Wop]

Because you haven't convinced me of anything.

I don't need to. Besides, you don't have the tools to comprehend what I've said anyway. So it's kind of like explaining physics to my cat.

Yep. Everyone who disagrees with you must be too dumb to understand. Great debating skills you got thre.[/quote]

Nope. Only you.

[Rob the Wop]

I might change that tune if God appeared before me

So you're saying that it is possible that there is a god?

Nope. I seen you making this assumption long before I wrote this.
I am stating that this is the proof I would require (direct proof) in order to believe. But being the genius in logic that you are, you automatically assumed this meant I am agnostic.

Predictable. Tiring, but predictable.

[HughMungus]

Nope. Only you.

Yep. Must be me. You couldn't possibly be wrong.

[Rob the Wop]

Nope. Only you.

Yep. Must be me. You couldn't possibly be wrong.

That's right. At least not against an liberal arts major, and from a state college at that.

[HughMungus]

I might change that tune if God appeared before me

So you're saying that it is possible that there is a god?

Nope. I seen you making this assumption long before I wrote this.
I am stating that this is the proof I would require (direct proof) in order to believe. But being the genius in logic that you are, you automatically assumed this meant I am agnostic.

Predictable. Tiring, but predictable.

Oh. Subjective proof. Gotcha.

[Rob the Wop]

So you're saying that it is possible that there is a god?

Nope. I seen you making this assumption long before I wrote this.
I am stating that this is the proof I would require (direct proof) in order to believe. But being the genius in logic that you are, you automatically assumed this meant I am agnostic.

Predictable. Tiring, but predictable.

Oh. Subjective proof. Gotcha.

?

Uhm, right Hugh. Direct physical evidence is subjective.

Bye Hugh. You've now made the short list of ignored folks (the fourth to be exact). I will never gain any insight from you. I should have done this on page 4 a long time ago.

Have fun 'gloating' over some imaginary 'win' of this 'argument'.

[DVD Burner]

[Kinetic IV]

Damn, there goes the Thunderdome battle.

And dont'cha love plonk? Not that I had any hand in it's creation but if people hadn't of got so pissed at me and a couple of others on here a long time ago we wouldn't have it. (takes bow, thank you, thank you very much, your tomatoes and eggs missed me, ha, ha!)

[HughMungus]

Nope. I seen you making this assumption long before I wrote this.
I am stating that this is the proof I would require (direct proof) in order to believe. But being the genius in logic that you are, you automatically assumed this meant I am agnostic.

Predictable. Tiring, but predictable.

Oh. Subjective proof. Gotcha.

?

Uhm, right Hugh. Direct physical evidence is subjective.

Bye Hugh. You've now made the short list of ignored folks (the fourth to be exact). I will never gain any insight from you. I should have done this on page 4 a long time ago.

Have fun 'gloating' over some imaginary 'win' of this 'argument'.

I win! Yay!

[the fire elf]

one unique aspect of the burningman culture is the lack of an interpretation of the big stick guy standing in the middle of the city...it opens up a space to interpret it in any given way in any given moment...

and i have yet to stumble across people standing on the open playa getting heated over what it means to them vs. another...

take a clue from your culture...philosophical perspectives are just as much art as anything else you'll drag out to the desert and set in the dust for a week...

maybe someone out there is walking around silently worshiping everyone's left shoe...who knows?...they may already be experiencing deeper realizations than you thought possible...

[Atar]

Hello there, I have an honest question for all the atheists, non-believers or I-couldn't-give-a-crap-either-way people in this thread Please read this next line carefuly:
I don't post this to bait you, its an honest question.

A few years back, my family and I went to a place where you could set up your camper (I don't recall the english word right now). This place was a christian themed camping spot, with christian owners and all that Now as we were about to set up my tent we see a small elderlypeople cart standing at place my tent should go. We asked our neigbours kindly to remove it and we got talking since my neighbour said he didn't need it anymore. Turns out he was healed from Multiple Sclerosis last week. I can go into greater detail than I do here about how this whole thing went down, but the short version went like this:
He couldn't walk, move his hands and had lost 60% of his vision. I don't remember his life expectancy exactly, but I think it was under 5 years. At one time he was at the place we went to, camping there with his wife and two children. When praying about things that were happening to him at the time he realized he never truly asked for forgiveness for everything he had done in his life (he had been a non-believer until about 10 years before he got MS IIRC).
So he and his wife made a list of all the things he could remember ever doing wrong. After doing this they visitited a pastor in the region that was known for healing people in God's name. They prayed and asked forgiveness for those sins, then prayed for his health.
Next thing he knows the pastor gives him a hand and he is pulled up from the chair and is able to walk, see, move his hands, everything. Totaly cured. Doctors were flabbergasted. Well, not totaly whole There was no callous on his feet since he had not used them for so long and he intensely felt every step as he walked home. He recalled this last part to me as it felt as a blessing to him.
Now the proof that he used to have MS was undeniable. I've talked to nearly everyone that was there at the time when he came walking into the camp. They all said he had been diagnosed with MS. His wife had lovingly taken care of him for years and he himself had accepted he had the disease and was willing to serve God in the state that he was in. Some of the christians there were sceptical aswell, but he never 'dis-cured' or however you'd like to put it. He has had all the diagnostic procedures that come with such a case of MS and none of them showed any signs of the disease.
I can't give you more than my word that this is a true recollection though. So you will have to take me up on that. But there are more stories like these to be found on the internet.

As I've said before, I don't post this to cause a ruckus. I genuinly want to know what you think when reading my story.

How would you explain this? Don't be shy when answering, just don't start calling me a fool for believing a man that later became a close friend and mentor

Regards,
Bram

[bringer]

[HughMungus]

How would you explain this?

Read the book!

[geekster]

So he and his wife made a list of all the things he could remember ever doing wrong

Was his name Earl?

[Kinetic IV]

Atar, that's a good question. I saw something similar as a teenager at an Apostolic Pentecostal church in Springfield, MO. In that case the man that was healed had some kind of problem with his legs that confined him to a wheelchair. During the service he went up to the front, the pastor put his hands on him and said a prayer and next thing he's standing on his own power and pushed the wheelchair away. I had always seen the guy in the wheelchair so I have no reason to believe is was staged in any way. And the guy has had no relapses or anything. I can't explain what happened, and it's one of the things that has always remained a big question mark in my mind when it comes to religion.

I'm glad you asked that question and I'm curious about people's responses to it too!

[bringer]

Atar, I suppose I would start by asking another question or two:
Do you think this could have happened if the man were anything but Christian?

Restated:
What if this sort of thing happens, however infrequently, but only the biggest religion in the world plays up any "publicity"


It could be a wonderful, non-religious, spontaneous healing.
Or, the healing could have been less than spontaneous, taking several years to complete, but the psychological blocks took a "miracle" to make this already-healed man get up out of his chair.

[Atar]

Thanks Kinetic IV I really am curious too.

Geekster: Nope, his name was Emiel actually. Lived down under for a while and moved back to Holland later in his life.

HughMungus: EH?

edit:

Atar, I suppose I would start by asking another question or two:
Do you think this could have happened if the man were anything but Christian?

Restated:
What if this sort of thing happens, however infrequently, but only the biggest religion in the world plays up any "publicity"


It could be a wonderful, non-religious, spontaneous healing.
Or, the healing could have been less than spontaneous, taking several years to complete, but the psychological blocks took a "miracle" to make this already-healed man get up out of his chair.

I am entirely unsure about your first question. I'm a christian myself and I have my questions.
But I think I can answer your second question about the publicity: That would be the cause of modern media. Step onboard of what is new and sells right now. Obviously christianity is more excepted in the 'modern' world (for whatever that means) so the media jumps on their band-wagon.

It could be its a non-religious thing but its weird it happens right at that moment instead of when trying to get from his wheelchair to his bed, or any other random action. If its a placebo effect it should be caused by hormones or some other measurable element in the body and could thus be explained. But sadly enough there's no explanation.

And the last part. I can see your point, the mind is a powerful thing and can fool the body in all manner of ways ('falling' sensations when you start to slumber, for instance). But MS doesn't work that way. A simple explanation is this: Your nerves are like electrical wires, to conduct their messages to the brain they need to be insulated. MS strips nerves of their insulation.
If you were able to heal from it slowly you would also experience that some feelings that were lost before would now resurface. Temperature, pressure and pain are the three kinds of nerves you have.


You are on the way to destruction! You have no chance to survive make your time!

[Rob the Wop]

Hello there, I have an honest question for all the atheists, non-believers or I-couldn't-give-a-crap-either-way people in this thread Please read this next line carefuly:
I don't post this to bait you, its an honest question.

A few years back, my family and I went to a place where you could set up your camper (I don't recall the english word right now). This place was a christian themed camping spot, with christian owners and all that Now as we were about to set up my tent we see a small elderlypeople cart standing at place my tent should go. We asked our neigbours kindly to remove it and we got talking since my neighbour said he didn't need it anymore. Turns out he was healed from Multiple Sclerosis last week. I can go into greater detail than I do here about how this whole thing went down, but the short version went like this:
He couldn't walk, move his hands and had lost 60% of his vision. I don't remember his life expectancy exactly, but I think it was under 5 years. At one time he was at the place we went to, camping there with his wife and two children. When praying about things that were happening to him at the time he realized he never truly asked for forgiveness for everything he had done in his life (he had been a non-believer until about 10 years before he got MS IIRC).
So he and his wife made a list of all the things he could remember ever doing wrong. After doing this they visitited a pastor in the region that was known for healing people in God's name. They prayed and asked forgiveness for those sins, then prayed for his health.
Next thing he knows the pastor gives him a hand and he is pulled up from the chair and is able to walk, see, move his hands, everything. Totaly cured. Doctors were flabbergasted. Well, not totaly whole There was no callous on his feet since he had not used them for so long and he intensely felt every step as he walked home. He recalled this last part to me as it felt as a blessing to him.
Now the proof that he used to have MS was undeniable. I've talked to nearly everyone that was there at the time when he came walking into the camp. They all said he had been diagnosed with MS. His wife had lovingly taken care of him for years and he himself had accepted he had the disease and was willing to serve God in the state that he was in. Some of the christians there were sceptical aswell, but he never 'dis-cured' or however you'd like to put it. He has had all the diagnostic procedures that come with such a case of MS and none of them showed any signs of the disease.
I can't give you more than my word that this is a true recollection though. So you will have to take me up on that. But there are more stories like these to be found on the internet.

As I've said before, I don't post this to cause a ruckus. I genuinly want to know what you think when reading my story.

How would you explain this? Don't be shy when answering, just don't start calling me a fool for believing a man that later became a close friend and mentor

Regards,
Bram

Not at all, I've never made fun of anyone's beliefs (except Hugh's). My parents are Roman Catholic and Baptist. They gain strength from their convictions.

Here's the result of a recent study on prayers for others. Most studies of this type are inconclusive (except if conducted by religious organizations, oddly enough). I can point to similiar instances without prayer, or similiar instances involving other 'pagan' gods. It has been shown that psychosomatic treatments (prayer, meditation, bedside manner, etc.) have a HUGE impact on recovery. So it's really tough to point to the 'hand of god' when you discuss a specific instance. In order to prove anything conclusively, you need a control group and a truely unbiased research setting. And sheer numbers. Lots of them.

So if an atheist becomes suddenly well after a deadly diagnosis, does that mean God doesn't exist? Not any more than if they became well after praying. It's just that 'power of prayer' stories make better human interest stories than "some atheist guy just started walking again out of the blue".

[HughMungus]

It could be a wonderful, non-religious, spontaneous healing.

Finally you admit you're agnostic. One down...

[bringer]

It could be a wonderful, non-religious, spontaneous healing.

Finally you admit you're agnostic. One down...

I admited no such thing, but I'd love to hear your reasoning behind such a leap.

[DVD Burner]

All religion sucks. None excluded and I am not making fun of any of them.

[HughMungus]

It could be a wonderful, non-religious, spontaneous healing.

Finally you admit you're agnostic. One down...

I admited no such thing, but I'd love to hear your reasoning behind such a leap.

Read the book. Re-read the thread.

[Ranger Genius]

Atar, even if we take it for granted that emiel actually had MS, and not some sort of psychosomatic affliction, the first question I would have was whether the disease had actually been cured, or the symptoms just abated. I had a good friend who suffered fairly advanced MS, and her symptoms were, shall we say, sporatic. She'd be fine for weeks at a time, then blind in one eye, then the next day paralyzed on her whole left side for a month or more. Even if it was a spontaneous healing, does it necessarily require that it was a "miracle," rather than just "really fucking unlikely?" I don't think so.

Unlikely shit happens all the time. It has to. If there were never any ridiculously bizarre coincidences, THAT would be truly remarkable.

And incidentally, while I was waiting for my son to be born and subsequently die halfway through his term, I found myself extremely comforted by the fact that there's no god. If there were a god, it would mean that the events of the universe, and the terribly painful events of those few days in my life, are governed by a horrible, cruel motherfucker; a child with a magnifying glass over the anthill of our lives. It must rob one's life of so much meaning to think that he is a pawn in the greater plan of a much greater being, who manipulates all the events in our lives to his own ends, apparently completely indifferent to the plight of his toys.

[Davoid]

Me damnit!!!! What did I tell you people?!

*sigh*

Will you all shut up if I show this funny cartoon about me?



BTW, I'm not anybody's fucking <i>co-</i>pilot, get me? I'm the one flying this shit, mkay?

[bringer]

Finally you admit you're agnostic. One down...

I admited no such thing, but I'd love to hear your reasoning behind such a leap.

Read the book. Re-read the thread.

I don't play that game with you.
Why do you play it with me?

[bringer]

...It must rob one's life of so much meaning to think that he is a pawn in the greater plan of a much greater being,...

Some people gladly give up the responsibility.

weirdos.