Center Camp/coffee debate

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:28 am

My only question is why stop there? It would be a fairly easy thing to bring out a pizza oven and some grills out to the playa. Cut a quick deal with the McDonalds and Domino's franchises to provide the ingrediants used. We could have Big Macs and Stuffed Crust pizzas. I vote for bringing in a Taco Bell too- that wouldn't require much in the way of extra equipment. That way folks wouldn't have to take the trouble to bring food out if they didn't want to.

Come to think of it, Target has a fairly good supply of survival gear at discount prices. Maybe have them show up every other day with a couple trucks and sell supplies out to folks.

This could be a HUGE break for the people of Burning Man! And the suppliers! Free labor with volunteers. A cut of the profit going back to the LLC.

Oh. Wait a second. This is wrong, isn't it? I wonder why?

Maybe...
Hmmmmph...
Could it be that selling a vendor's product at Burning Man flies in the face of one of the basic tenants of Burning Man?
Could it be that coffee and chai are not required survival items? They are luxuries and could be supplied by a $10 used French press and some hot water? Could this be a slap in the face of self-reliance?

Naw....

Hey, I heard that the new Southwest Chicken Sandwhich at Jack-in-the-Box is pretty good. Who do you lobby to get Center Camp to start making those?

mr. wrong · Post by **mr. wrong** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:44 am

All right, I won't even try to get back into the fray of the actual debate here...
But I'll be damned if someone is going to insinuate that I'm from San Francisco. Love the city, but I'm a hoosier, born and raised. As in Indiana, James Dean, Wendell Wilkie, Ernie Pyle, Michael Jackson, automobile racing, etc etc.
And I currently live in Berlin.
As in Germany.

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:53 am

Really, I don't see why they don't just hold the event in Reno so I could get a fucking hotel room.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:26 am

> I can see the usefullness of ice being sold on the playa.

I don't think anyone's denigrating ice sales here. Though the event would
be possible without ice sales, it'd be different, and a lot more difficult.
Most of the debate here is about whether the cafe should be an institution
that you pay for with your ticket money (and then pay again to use), and
about whether center camp provides a useful social function.

> why not operate the coffee/tea on a donation basis (donation of coffee
> and tea) ie much like the sunblock station that I read about.

Why have centralized coffee at all? It's not a necessity (and neither is ice,
but it's damn close). In the absence of a central entity, I think the
number of camps offering coffee on a large scale might increase. I also
think it'd increase interaction with neighbors who are making their
morning or evening coffee just as you mosey by.

If you were going to run an independent coffee camp, soliciting donations
would certainly be one way to go.

And if you feel strongly that centralized coffee is a good thing, and you
want to defray costs, feel free to start a project whose goal is to provide
materials to the cafe at reduced costs. Burning Man is all about doing
things that you think need to be done.

III · Post by **III** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:11 pm

> Burning Man is all about doing things that you think need to be done.

using other people's ticket money, right?

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:14 pm

Asshole.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:16 pm

Or better yet, five guys coming out with espresso machines that can handle the constant dust.

if you are trying to tell me that fresh espresso from the mercedes of espresso machines is a need, I am going to tell you to find another event.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:40 pm

Quick two cents of coffee vs. ice.

The ice vending has a number of things going for it. First is that the proceeds help out the local school. Second is that the sales helps out in terms of PR with the local community. The coffee at Center Camp does neither.

Third is that ice is not a food item. You don't go to Burger King or Denny's to get a plate or cup of ice. The presence of ice simply extends the types of food and drink that you can enjoy on the playa. Ice helps keep meat, cheese, and veggies in an edible condition not possible without refridgeration. So you can create a wider variety of meals and drinks for yourself and those neighbors around you.

Ice brings forth the possibility for the creation of a community. In '99 I brought the fixin's for 5 gallons of homemade cioppino. I invited all those around our camp to a homecooked meal of cioppino, shepard's bread, and red wine. People loved it and we got to meet a lot of folks. But there is no way to bring all that fish, crab, shrimp, mussels, and clams to BM and have it stay good for a week without refridgeration.

Is ice a luxury? Sure. But there isn't a practical way to make ice out on the playa.
Is coffee a luxury? Sure. But anyone can make it. You can get a cheapie expresso machine from Target for $35 that will make great lattes. You need to run a generator for about 10 minutes, but BFD.

One can enhance your playa experience, the other detracts from social interaction and blatantly breaks the "no vending" rule.

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:46 pm

It's definitely not a need, but it is really nice. Most of what people bring out to BM is not a need. I wouldn't judge it by those terms. It serves a purpose, and people really like it. Therefore it's worth having.

The question is, should it charge money?

mr. wrong wrote: it's hard for me to imagine... five guys coming out with espresso machines that can handle the constant dust. Those are the mercedes of espresso machines out there, quite a bit of capital invested, and they still require repairs on the playa. So who wants to invest half a year's salary in a piece of equipment so that they can provide free coffee?

I agree with precip. If the need arose, burners would fill it. I think you underestimate how much people are willing to invest (financially and personally) to make a successful and useful contribution to the event. I wouldn't be surprised if several cafe camps popped up to fill the gap, each with their own style and none of them charging $ for the service, because there isn't supposed to be any goddamned commerce within BRC!!! The initial investment for the machines might be high, but you divvy that up between 10-15 people, you do some fundraising and it's do-able. And once you've got the machines, you don't need that investment again, just occasional maintenance. Coffee itself is relatively inexpensive (compared to, say, running a bar all week).

For that matter, I'm sure the initial investment on the machines run by the cafe has already been recouped over the years at center camp. Why not just stop charging? Hmmm....

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:59 pm

> Why not just stop charging? Hmmm....

Because I want my ticket money to go to infrastructure, fees, and
medical/law enforcement. I don't want to subsidize your morning coffee,
unless it's by serving you morning coffee in my camp. Materials costs for
the cafe look like they're a drop in the bucket ($108K for both cafe and
ice sales in 2002 on total expenditure of $5.2M), and building and staffing
costs are probably small compared to the entirety of center camp, but it's
the principle of the matter.

Whatever happened to radical self-reliance, eh?

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:23 pm

Patience wrote:
mr. wrong wrote: it's hard for me to imagine... five guys coming out with espresso machines that can handle the constant dust. Those are the mercedes of espresso machines out there, quite a bit of capital invested, and they still require repairs on the playa. So who wants to invest half a year's salary in a piece of equipment so that they can provide free coffee?
. . .
The initial investment for the machines might be high, but you divvy that up between 10-15 people, you do some fundraising and it's do-able. And once you've got the machines, you don't need that investment again, just occasional maintenance.

For that matter, I'm sure the initial investment on the machines run by the cafe has already been recouped over the years at center camp. Why not just stop charging? Hmmm....

Or BMorg could sell the machines to proven burners interested in doing a cafe service for free.

But then what to do with those embarrasing cash registers. . . ?

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:40 pm

precipitate wrote: Whatever happened to radical self-reliance, eh?

It's been changed to radical self-indulgance.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:43 pm

>It's been changed to radical self-indulgance.

Ah. Excellent. Then I'll show up in First Camp expecting a warm bath, a
massage, and a nice cheese plate followed by cigars and cognac. Y'all
don't mind footing the bill for that, right?

Aristotle · Post by **Aristotle** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:55 pm

unjonharley wrote:Personaly I'm fucking sick of the BM mind set.

Yeah me too! I'm sick of the whole thing. And I've come to realize that the best thing that I can possibley do is sit here in front of my computer and bitch about the event.

All of those "volunteers" sitting around typing about how they believe in the event and the things it provides for the ticket buyers. I'm sick of them. I can't believe that I'm paying money to go hang out on public land so that Burning Man can make a cafe that doesn't personally benefit me. Me Me Me. I mean this is MY event. I bought a ticket. It is just so totally hypocritical of them. I'm glad that I'm not hypocritical. I'm not going to buy anything for the event. I don't believe in commerce at all.

But most importantly.. I'm sick of the Burning Man mind set... and next year when I go, I'm going to make sure everyone knows how disgusted I am that they are enjoying themselves.

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:13 pm

precipitate wrote:>
Most of the debate here is about whether the cafe should be an institution
that you pay for with your ticket money (and then pay again to use), and
about whether center camp provides a useful social function.

Once agian, trying to interject some reality here: You don't pay for the cafe with your ticket price, it pays for itself. Second, in terms of "using" the cafe, no one has to pay to go check out cool art, great performances, the fashion show, mass morning juggling, or anything else that happens there.

As for providing a useful social function, I think it does. Since my arguements as to why seem to be largely ignored, I refer everyone to the fine book The Great Good Place: Cafes, Coffee Shops, Bookstores, Bars, Hair Salons, and Other Hangouts at the Heart of a Community by Ray Oldenburg. Also illustrative are the many issues of Cometbus wherein Aaron extolls the pleasures of hanging out in cafes.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:40 pm

Aristotle wrote: Yeah me too! I'm sick of the whole thing. And I've come to realize that the best thing that I can possibley do is sit here in front of my computer and bitch about the event.

All of those "volunteers" sitting around typing about how they believe in the event and the things it provides for the ticket buyers. I'm sick of them. I can't believe that I'm paying money to go hang out on public land so that Burning Man can make a cafe that doesn't personally benefit me. Me Me Me. I mean this is MY event. I bought a ticket. It is just so totally hypocritical of them. I'm glad that I'm not hypocritical. I'm not going to buy anything for the event. I don't believe in commerce at all.

But most importantly.. I'm sick of the Burning Man mind set... and next year when I go, I'm going to make sure everyone knows how disgusted I am that they are enjoying themselves.

Wow. I had no idea that Mother Teresa was on the Eplaya.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:13 pm

> You don't pay for the cafe with your ticket price, it pays for itself.

Based on what do you state this? Nothing I've ever seen says one way
or another whether the cafe is profitable. I've been told by a couple of
people that it's not (and therefore some other source of revenue, like
tickets, must fund it). You say that it at least breaks even. Neither source
is more credible, in my opinion, so do you have some inside knowledge of
the finances of the cafe that you'd be willing to share with us?

> Second, in terms of "using" the cafe

I meant that you must pay for drinks. I'm making a distinction between
the cafe as the vending portion, and the greater structure which is in
center camp. Just to give my comments some context.

For me, the jury's still out on useful social function for the center camp
structure. I find that the interactions I've had in center camp have been
artificial, distant, and a lot more akin to the commercial transactions I have
at Starbucks than the stuff I'd prefer to do on the playa. In contrast, most
of the interactions I've had in theme camps or in other people's homes
have been a lot more fulfilling.

I realize that not everyone feels that way. Which is why I don't advocate
completely dismantling center camp. But it doesn't serve any useful
purpose for me.

III · Post by **III** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:32 pm

> You don't pay for the cafe with your ticket price, it pays for itself.

(a) not according to the published expense sheet.
(b) you're obvioulsy also not including the structure it's housed in. since that doesn't count for anything, how would you like to build one in my camp?
(c) i understand your position. it just seems hypocritical to me. would you care to explain that you understand ours? to this point it seems mostly that you've put your fingers in your ears and are going "lalalala".

Aristotle · Post by **Aristotle** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:55 pm

precipitate wrote:> find that the interactions I've had in center camp have been
artificial, distant, and a lot more akin to the commercial transactions I have
at Starbucks than the stuff I'd prefer to do on the playa.

You openly admit to being a Starbucks consumer. Me too! But I'm personally glad that I have that one week a year were I can go and pretend like I care about other human beings and say that I'm anti-commerce. Because that's what it's all about. Interpersonal relationships that aren't tainted by the disgusting dirty money. Next year I'm going to buy so much coffee before the event, so I can pass it out for free during that sacred week.

The most important thing to me is the principal of it all! Buy all you want to get ready for the event, but please pretend like you hate money during it!

But thank god that I can go back to the city where I live and be my regular everyday consumer whore. I'm glad to know that I'm not alone on this! Starbucks forever!

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:14 pm

If you actually cared about this, you could look up my posts on the old
eplaya about money, commerce at the event, and commerce outside the
event. I suspect you just want to be sarcastic, though. So go right ahead.
At least you spell most things right (except it's principle, not principal;
easy mistake).

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:33 pm

I agree with both Kelly and Precipiatate:

i do think the centar cafe idea serves as a good place for people to interact. i think that there are a lot of people whoa re too "shy" (for lack of a batter word) and center camp is a good place for them to start interacting. But on a personal level, I'm with precipiate: it's not for me anymore. My first year, yes, it helped me. This year, not hardly at all.

I haven't seen the book Kelly mentioned, but it does look interesting and I don't doubt it's validity on some of the points she mentions. Something I wanted to note though: I agree that cafes, bars, hair salons, etc., are all cores where people intereact. But, as other people have mentioned in reagrds to our specific cafe, why does there have to be an excahnge of money? There are bars on the playa that don't charge; these are social centers. Some of them were/are as "big" and as (in) foamous as the cafe. Thre are plenty of salons (the beauty type and the cigar-smoking, brandy snifting type) on the playa that don't charge you money.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:00 pm

I haven't yet been to the Playa so I have no idea how the vibe feels in center camp or in the theme camps, but as a shy person knowing there is a place at the event that no one person or group claims as there own where I can go and feel entitled to be is comforting. Since the only thing I seem to get out of the house to buy in my daily life are cigarettes a couple of times a week and groceries every few weeks, paying for a coffee to rent a place to sit and not feel forced to be social sounds like a deal to me. I do plan on pushing myself to volunteer and engage with as many people as possible and be open to as much of what Burning Man is as I can. Center Camp sounds like a more positive alternative than retreating to my privet space when I've had to much. I guess I'll find out.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:41 pm

paying for a coffee to rent a place to sit and not feel forced to be social

(What follows is purely my opinion)

NO.

No fucking way.

That is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard (nothing personal).

You should never feel obligated to pay money a place to sit and not be social (at BM or anywhere else). That is totally against the point and that is a reason to get rid of commerce at the cafe.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:55 pm

paying for a coffee to rent a place to sit and not feel forced to be social sounds like a deal to me.

his is the single, most succinct argument against the cafe that I have ever heard!

Aristotle · Post by **Aristotle** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:08 pm

precipitate wrote: At least you spell most things right (except it's principle, not principal;
easy mistake).

Precipitate... You're right. I'm afraid I can't help, but to be a little sarcastic at times.

Thanks for the compliment on the spelling.

Please excuse my pun. The word choice was intentional.

Taken from Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: 2principal
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

2 : a matter or thing of primary importance: as a (1) : a capital sum placed at interest, due as a debt, or used as a fund (2) : the corpus of an estate, portion, devise, or bequest b : the construction that gives shape and strength to a roof and is usually one of several trusses; broadly : the most important member of a piece of framing

Additionally, I'm including a link to a page about informal fallacies. It was written by a friend of mine. I think it does a great job speaking to informal logical fallacies. I thought it might be a nice link for a lot of people on this board.

http://www.humboldt.edu/~mfg1/lecture1.html

Precipitate, I thought you may find Argumentum ad Hominem of particular interest.

Hugs and Frappaccinos...
Truly Yours,
Aristotle.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:38 pm

You know, it all costs, if the coffee were gifted to you you have the debt of gratitude. Weather it is social , financial, or even emotional, there is always an exchange, it’s the commerce that binds us together into the packs, herds or tribes most human animals prefer to live in.

A part of gifting to others is paying back some of that debt of gratitude, a part of it is feeling good about your self and your generosity sort of paying ahead on that karmic debt of gratitude. This in no way diminishes its value of the gift and it's ability to make every one feel good. It's just the way it is.

Financial transactions do, do less to bind a community than any of the other forms of commerce because the debt isn't carried and the price is explicit, ( at least for a cup of coffee ). Witch is what I could see as an argument for not selling coffee in center camp. The society of burners don't benefit from the transaction in the same way as they do in the gift economy with out the debt of gratitude being incurred.

Yes the point of burning man is the community and the social connection with creative people exploring and expanding there own definitions of them selves. Hopefully encouraging and inspiring each other, and having a dam good time in the process.

Like I've said before I haven't been there yet. I may find joining into the community easier than I can imagine. As a shy not very social person I find the idea of there being a place I could be around the community without being involved with the social commerce of the community comforting as a potential escape if I find I need it. I hope I won't !

I just like to consider contingencies it's part of preparedness.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:22 am

precipitate wrote:> I find that the interactions I've had in center camp have been artificial, distant, and a lot more akin to the commercial transactions I have at Starbucks than the stuff I'd prefer to do on the playa.

Could that have something to do with what you are bringing to the party?

In any case I appreciate that you don't advocate the total dismantling - you, unlike some, seem to understand that it's not all about you. There are thousands of folks who do enjoy the cafe - whether they buy anything or not. It's not going anywhere, and no one on this board really needs to approve of it. If you don't want to go, don't go.

And I may be wrong, but I believe that the cafe also helps fund, perhaps totally funds, the Commissary - which feeds hundreds of hardworking volunteers throughout the event.

Even the DPW. Though why anyone, especially the llc, would care about guys & gals who work 10 hours in the sun for weeks at a time is totally beyond me.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:40 am

You GO grrrl....

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:16 pm

Hey Trey and everyone else.

Sorry if it seekms like I'm not acknowledging your point of view - I do get it, and I also really appreciate the non-commercial aspect of Black Rock City. The cafe is an exception, and I just don't mind. I think that the positive outways the negative by a large degree, and anyway I believe all rules should just be guidelines anyway. The moment you're not allowed to consider options and other points of view, you're fucked. Also, I've tried not to argue with folks and tell them their opinion is wrong, just mostly correct some incorrect statements that have been made here and on the "culturejamming" thread. For instance:

NO ONE has to "rent space" at the cafe. That's one of the most important differences between the BRC cafe and a business in reality camp. Anyone can come in and hang out as long as they please (as long as they don't try to camp there). You can bring beer, you can bring the chai you just got handed by Chai Guy, you can just sit there in the shade and people watch, and it's all okay.

Also regarding finances, the coffee serving aspect of the cafe definitely pays for itself. No one involuntarily subsidizes commerce on the playa. When I said I don't know if the cafe makes money or not, that's including all aspects of the place: construction, decoration, lights, sound systems, and all those things that most people say they don't object to. Also, I don't want to say anything definitively about because I'm really not part of anything involving cafe finances (except my own budget), but the impression I get is that the cafe actually did contribute to the org's coffers this year, though I don't know if that was specifically earmarked for the comissary or whatever.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:30 pm

NO ONE has to "rent space" at the cafe.

KellY, I agree and understand this. The poster who brought that up seemed to be under the impression that they were obligated to do so, and my posts was in response to that--telling them that they shouldn't have to feel that way. There should never be that feeling.

We will all go back and forth about the finances about the cafe until some offical statistics are released, and I dunno when/if that will happen.

Center Camp/coffee debate

I agree with Mr. Wrong.

Watch yer mouth

Ice ice baby to go...