I need help!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:46 am

A DPW person might recognize someone and say to another,
"He works."
And nothing more.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:39 pm

keeps me warm & squishy at night

Uhm, "squishy"?

B.

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:29 pm

Gyre: Good point. With some 300 DPW droogs, it's hard to keep track of exactly what they do. Some so multiple jobs.

BAS: Joke, son, yer s'pose ta laugh. Because I talk about shit all day, it's tough to take myself too seriously, but I take my job very seriously.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:26 pm

I've heard it a few times.
The person they are talking to just nods.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:13 pm

BAS: Joke, son, yer s'pose ta laugh. Because I talk about shit all day, it's tough to take myself too seriously, but I take my job very seriously.

OooooOH! Never mind! (Thought maybe we'd better be calling the doctor. )

B.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:19 pm

The length of time to see if a society is successful or not would be, I think, measured in centuries-- which would make a real world test problematic at best. At a minimum, the society would have to run long enough that the original founders die off and the power is successfully transfered to the next generation-- preferably next two generations. That would test whether or not the concept will stand up to to the test of being passed from the early idealists to the people for whom it is an everyday reality. (The Soviet Union ultimately failed this test, China might be passing it. Not that I consider either of those a Utopia!)

I agree with u on the idea that it would maybe have to stay small in order to have a greater consensis, and i like the concept of isolation on an island.....but i'm not convinced it would necessarily have to take centuries to be successful. I think perhaps one of the biggest hurdles to overcome would be agreeing on a model. Would it use modern technology, transport, medicine? Would it trade with or have contact with the 'outside' world? What political system would it operate under? Would it even need a political system (although it's said that everything is political these days)?

These are the sort of things that rattle around in my brain.....Utopia is just beyond the edge of possibility....

The Soviet Union and China were experiments in socialism...is that what Utopia is? The mind boggles!

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:24 pm

the universal reciprocity thing

Pleeeaase explain.....?

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:33 pm

You might want to think about having a discussion with these people to find out why they do what they do. As to the attitude, well... most of them don't suffer fools well and can yank your sack off like a paper towel.

They sound kinda scary

,perhaps i should steer clear of them....i prefer to avoid pain and suffering...especially my own!

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:45 pm

I believe that our society has lost touch with the concept of personal responsibility, and BM is a Do-ocracy. Find a role and fill it. If you see something that needs to be done, then it automatically becomes your responsibility to do it. If someone needs something, and you have it, it's already theirs. We live on volunteerism and gifting.

I couldn't agree with u more. I love the term 'Do-ocracy'. It paints a vivid picture of society for me, and i believe i already try and impliment this principle in my own life.

All I can say is that it is a pretty broad cross section of our population, and we are full of opinions (or something). Go ahead and ask anything you want.

Thankyou robbidobbs, u make me feel welcome.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:12 am

Me2 wrote:
the universal reciprocity thing
Pleeeaase explain.....?

:? :shock:

Universal reciprocity is the commercial system burning man operates with.
It is a system primarily found in hardship environments living on the edge of survival.
It is a lot more fun with the plenty of burning man.
I'm sure it is very different to live with day to day.
Everyone gives what they have available.
Everyone takes what they need.
Typically as cultures have more, those who give more are accorded higher status and praise.
High office may be codified as part of this economy.
In some places, being owed for things you have given to others or done for them, is considered great wealth.
Many of the utopian societies founded in the us have operated this way.
I think there is one in canada that goes back a long way now.
It is found in some south american mountain locations and I wonder how much it was a part of rural farm culture in the past.

Artists at burning man get the recognition and appreciation of the people who see it.
Some projects, like the Tuna Guyz, gain a lot of recognition.
Most people, including Hot Wheelz, Tuna Guyz, big fire art and everyone else, do it for the thrill of seeing someone else's experience get better.

There are other threads on this subject such as Commerce at Burning Man, etc.

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:39 pm

Most people, including Hot Wheelz, Tuna Guyz, big fire art and everyone else, do it for the thrill of seeing someone else's experience get better.

Absolutely!

That's why we're here.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:02 am

Arrrrh...i see!

Thanks gyre. Are you talking about what others have referred to as the 'gift economy'? I've read about that in other places but i hadn't read the things u said about status etc.....

i'm sorry, i'd write more but i've had a couple of red wines and feeling a little doughy in the head...plus i still haven't done my tute prep for tomorrow.

gotta go

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:29 am

Yes, gift economy is the buzzword.
There is indeed a system of commerce at burning man.
It's just alien to most of us.
It came about almost by accident as a way to prevent state tax officials from taxing burning man into oblivion, which they would have.
Come and make your own conclusions about how it works, or doesn't.

It does make it quite silly to worry over business referrals among burners and so on.
This is a gift economy powered almost entirely by standard us commerce.
Fun, in a decadent sort of way.

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:51 am

I had never heard of the tax angle, but I have heard the Hat talk about how he didn't want this to become a vendors paradise, and be degraded accordingly. It's because with "commerce" there is no relationship built in the transaction. There is also a culture of no bartering, which is non-monitary trading, but still commerce, so no relationship is built as well. When you gift someone, you've made a relationship, and no repayment is expected.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:24 am

Once it is the system everyone uses, it becomes a form of commerce, however unusual.
Commerce is not by definition, only what we are familiar with.
If you give a gift in the default world, it may be isolated from commerce, but I know many people from other cultures that use gifts as a stock in trade of building a relationship, commercial or otherwise.
Nothing untoward is meant by this, but it can create misunderstandings when you don't understand it.

Would everyone accept the standards and practices at burning man if they weren't treated the same way?
I doubt it.
Even the most anonymous gifter is affected by the behavior of everyone else.
It is definitely commerce.
It is a wonderful thing to experience under holiday conditions and the wealth of burning man, compared to a subsistence farming village in the mountains somewhere.

I usually hear burners say commerce to mean us style capitalism, but it isn't the same thing, necessarily.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:59 pm

You can't get rid of bartering and black markets--you get a group of people, you're going to get some kind of trade going.

However, I can understand why the LLC doesn't want to have Budweiser (or whatever) banners all over the fucking place, even though they could make a fuckton of money off of it.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:48 am

Zane5100 wrote: even though they could make a fuckton of money off of it.

I think thez could make the full metric fuckton, in fact.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:44 pm

YAY!

Today i finished my literature review on BM and handed it in.

What i have learned:

* No two ppl see things the same way when it comes to BM (no real surprise there)

* There's so much to write about BM that most articles include a little of everything and don't say a lot about anything

* Although i've yet to include you-tube or this forum in any writing, they have been invaluable in helping me to understand what BM is like and what it means to burners (those that use eplaya anyway)

* The research possibilites in the fields of philosophy, sociology and culture (to name but a few) are almost endless.....I LOVE IT!!

* Whether or not i go on to use BM in my own future research, i have got the bug now and plan on one day attending BM

* Americans are groovy ppl and i want to get to know them better!!

If you have any suggestions for research in relation to BM let me know. What interests you the most?

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:53 am

Did you see this?
It may have changed from the old site.
It used to be easier to find.
You should have also seen marcmerlins.org and lennyjones.net.

http://vrm.vrway.com/issue11/BURNING_MA ... IENCE.html

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:56 am

http://vrm.vrway.com/issue11/BURNING_MA ... IENCE.html

Thanks gyre. I really enjoyed what both Michelle Bienias and Charles Evans had to say. Some of the things that they said have got me thinking..... "erasure of normal social hierachies", "You 'are' whatever you are doing", 'the only limitations are the ones that are self-imposed', and Michelle talked about the body being primary. I'm going to give these some more thought and see how i might work them into my research proposal.

I really appreciate the direction you're steering me in. I feel like u actually 'get' what i'm on about.

Cheers

.....Also, my ancient laptop wont support the software to look at the gallery, but i'll check it out some time at uni this week....any visual art inspires and moves me (even if sometimes it is in a funky way, hehe).

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:35 am

Just think of it as a beach party that went off the tracks.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:13 pm

Thanks Mate!

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:19 pm

What would u say is the AIM of Burning Man

Post by **mdmf007** » Tue May 01, 2007 9:04 am

gyre wrote: Universal reciprocity is the commercial system burning man operates with.
It is a system primarily found in hardship environments living on the edge of survival..

The BM system only works short term as well. Picture the breakdown that would occur if BM was forced by natural disaster or some other force to remain in place for another 2....3...4....weeks or more. I doubt food would last more than another 4-5 days, and the water situation would get dire in short time as well. Any society that is to survive intact IMHO will use isolation, and be an agrarian and religion based. The religion gives them a common base and belief system, and in the case of themennonites, quakers et.al. gives them discipline. You would have to instill discipline and beliefs into the youngsters to keep them from merely walking off when they are older.

Even the best mannered, and well intentioned people will turn into animals when it comes to survival. - and I can guarantee that there are plenty of guns out on playa - I often think of what would happen if say a massive flood producing storm rolled through, or how about a wind storm
of monumental proportions and of duration - the white out kind that lasts for days.

ME2 I may have missed it, but any chance youll post your work?

Gottogo - work awaits

later all

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Tue May 01, 2007 8:45 pm

Any society that is to survive intact IMHO will use isolation, and be an agrarian and religion based. The religion gives them a common base and belief system, and in the case of themennonites, quakers et.al. gives them discipline. You would have to instill discipline and beliefs into the youngsters to keep them from merely walking off when they are older.

Hi. I agree that any utopian society would have to be isolated and share a common belief system...but i'm not convinced is has to be deontological (based on God's authority), as long as everyone shares it. It could be utilitarian or even hedonistic. What do u think?

Even the best mannered, and well intentioned people will turn into animals when it comes to survival.

While it wouldn't be ethical to test this theory, i would have to agree. Although some of the reality TV shows around these days give plenty of examples of the baseness (not sure that's a real word) of human nature.

ME2 I may have missed it, but any chance youll post your work?

I'm more than happy to post my literature review, but i'm technologically challenged! If someone could explain how i go about attaching a file to the forum i'd be very grateful. Alternatively i could email it to u??

Post by **mdmf007** » Wed May 02, 2007 12:00 am

You can print it as a jpg, post it to one of the many free online sites, and post it that way, or start a new thread and cut and paste the entire piece there - if it wasnt a million pages. or link to the file in whatever format it is in from a blog, or myspace, etc.

later

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:50 pm

Where's everybody gone??

dana · Post by **dana** » Fri May 18, 2007 4:02 pm

Me2 wrote: I haven't made any other posts besides the ones on this strand. I feel it isn't my place. I don't feel i have anything of significance to contribute and also, being an outsider/non-attender, that i would not be welcome. I feel i'm on very shakey ground even doing this strand. I wasn't offended (much), but i did sense hostility. Maybe it's because u don't understand what i'm trying to achieve.

Hey come on! Don't be that way. Spew it out there. You don't see many of us holding back much, do you?

The hostility takes some getting used to. I think it's like when people are driving their cars - they find themselves doing things within the anonymity of their vehicles they would never do (or say) face to face. But its a little goofy in response to the occaisional person posting trying to find out about the "big BM experience" without being there. Who cares? Don't respond I say. However you will get the

by asking too many way general questions like "what is the aim of BM?"

I do like the idea of utopianism - about the only class I recall from high school. Do try to figure out how to post what you write. I'm curious what your perusal of eplaya has given you. (Ultimately it has almost nothing to do with the real playa.)

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:48 pm

(Ultimately it has almost nothing to do with the real playa.)

Nothing at all.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri May 18, 2007 9:42 pm

Less dust for sure.

I need help!

Re: I have a question...?