My God can kick Your God's ass.

[Elderberry]

i submit that there are far more "unobserved" phenomena than otherwise.

I have no doubt.

But I intrepret "unobservered" more like something that cannot be 'observe' directly, like black holes in the universe for example, but can be theorized to exist because of the 'observable' effects they have on 'observable' objects around them.

I also believe that our knowledge of the universe is extremely limited and that there are many things we have yet to discover and learn about; but I do not ascribe the answers to that which we do not yet understand to any 'god'.

JK

[fciron]

Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.[/i]
JK

i submit that there are far more "unobserved" phenomena than otherwise.

I was gonna be smart and stay the hell out of this but I have to ask if your submission of the existence of unobserved phenomena is just as unprovable as the existence or non-existence of a higher power. Now you're not only asking us to believe in god but also in magic?

[Simon of the Playa]

Hey Thirt33n...

my non-god can kick your non-god's non-ass.

[thirt33n]

if two non-god's meet in the alley to fight,....did it ever happen?
huh Simon, my friend?

and just because i have no ass doesn't mean that my non-god has no ass....

[littleflower]

ihsdlfjbn.sdfjnb.kndfb.n,cm ,fdg.,srng .dnf.b kdfgkj...

[littleflower]

Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.[/i]
JK

i submit that there are far more "unobserved" phenomena than otherwise.

I was gonna be smart and stay the hell out of this but I have to ask if your submission of the existence of unobserved phenomena is just as unprovable as the existence or non-existence of a higher power. Now you're not only asking us to believe in god but also in magic?

lol ... glad you joined in, fc...! but ... magic? i'm not asking you to believe in anything ... and certainly not magic.

we are still discovering new stuff every day on earth ... we are getting a closer look at mars, now ... and we know the existence of so many other planets, stars, &c ... places we can't get to... maybe we can't prove that there is anything out there we have not seen before, but that would be a bit of a stretch, wouldn't it?

i would also suggest that there is quite a lot of stuff that is not sufficiently explained.

there are plenty of scientists who are not atheists, you know.

i have no answers ... just want to keep the question as open as possible.

[dr.placebo]

i don't see how you could teach a number of subjects without referring to religion, as it is inextricable from humanity.

Agreed. If you are teaching about the middle ages then you must not avoid teaching about the influence of the Catholic Church. But if you teaching science or math then you should avoid mixing in religious explanations. And whatever you are teaching (in a taxpayer funded context) you should avoid teachings that assert the correctness of a particular religious system.

And all scientific theories, incidentally, are subject to revision through fact. No scientific theory is immune! Even facts (i.e observations) can be disputed. Asserting that something must be so in the absence of facts should be avoided.

i submit that there are far more "unobserved" phenomena than otherwise.

Quite likely. How could it be otherwise when we see so little of the universe? There may even be unobservable phenomena (e.g., events inside of the event horizon of a black hole). The flaw lies in claiming special knowledge about unobserved events. Such a claim requires extraordinary evidence, which is never produced (to my knowledge).

[Elderberry]

Here's Reverand Conrad actually giving his convocation. And you wonder why I don't have much respect for religious people.

[youtube][/youtube]

JK

[littleflower]

ksvkdjsjks jsdkf skdj skdvh skdfj aourouref qefa dfadf a ....

[Elderberry]

ksvkdjsjks jsdkf skdj skdvh skdfj aourouref qefa dfadf a ....

I agree entirely. One of your most astute and intelligent posts to date.

JK

[goathead]

Here's Reverand Conrad actually giving his convocation. And you wonder why I don't have much respect for religious people.
JK

Yes but using your logic here, does this mean if I had a picture of a drunken fucking frat boy, passed out in his own puke in the dust. That you must be just like him because you both go to Burning Man?

Sorry, there are bad preachers, theives, hypocrites and all that. But for every bad one that makes the headlines, there are probably 1000 others helping people out in their everyday lives.

Some of these people get to see us in the happiest times, and at the very worst of times.

[ygmir]

Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.[/i]
JK

i submit that there are far more "unobserved" phenomena than otherwise.

I was gonna be smart and stay the hell out of this but I have to ask if your submission of the existence of unobserved phenomena is just as unprovable as the existence or non-existence of a higher power. Now you're not only asking us to believe in god but also in magic?

and, the problem with "magic" is........?.............

are you daft?

[ygmir]

Here's Reverand Conrad actually giving his convocation. And you wonder why I don't have much respect for religious people.
JK

Yes but using your logic here, does this mean if I had a picture of a drunken fucking frat boy, passed out in his own puke in the dust. That you must be just like him because you both go to Burning Man?

Sorry, there are bad preachers, theives, hypocrites and all that. But for every bad one that makes the headlines, there are probably 1000 others helping people out in their everyday lives.

Some of these people get to see us in the happiest times, and at the very worst of times.

[goathead]

i submit that there are far more "unobserved" phenomena than otherwise.

I was gonna be smart and stay the hell out of this but I have to ask if your submission of the existence of unobserved phenomena is just as unprovable as the existence or non-existence of a higher power. Now you're not only asking us to believe in god but also in magic?

and, the problem with "magic" is........?.............

are you daft?

The BRC would be just another dusty camp out without it.

[ygmir]

I was gonna be smart and stay the hell out of this but I have to ask if your submission of the existence of unobserved phenomena is just as unprovable as the existence or non-existence of a higher power. Now you're not only asking us to believe in god but also in magic?

and, the problem with "magic" is........?.............

are you daft?

The BRC would be just another dusty camp out without it.

as previously stated:
"Goathead, you're a (g)jucking fenius".........

[littleflower]

Here's Reverand Conrad actually giving his convocation. And you wonder why I don't have much respect for religious people.
JK

Yes but using your logic here, does this mean if I had a picture of a drunken fucking frat boy, passed out in his own puke in the dust. That you must be just like him because you both go to Burning Man?

Sorry, there are bad preachers, theives, hypocrites and all that. But for every bad one that makes the headlines, there are probably 1000 others helping people out in their everyday lives.

Some of these people get to see us in the happiest times, and at the very worst of times.

thanks, goathead ... this is what i wanted to say ... along with a comment about maybe posting a youtube bit of jeremiah wright ... but at some point, it just got silly ... and you said it better anyhow...

[goathead]

Here's Reverand Conrad actually giving his convocation. And you wonder why I don't have much respect for religious people.
JK

Yes but using your logic here, does this mean if I had a picture of a drunken fucking frat boy, passed out in his own puke in the dust. That you must be just like him because you both go to Burning Man?

Sorry, there are bad preachers, theives, hypocrites and all that. But for every bad one that makes the headlines, there are probably 1000 others helping people out in their everyday lives.

Some of these people get to see us in the happiest times, and at the very worst of times.

thanks, goathead ... this is what i wanted to say ... along with a comment about maybe posting a youtube bit of jeremiah wright ... but at some point, it just got silly ... and you said it better anyhow...

Years ago I thoughts on religion where just about the same as jk's.
I don't know now, I have no problems with science and a higher power.
We have the gift to qustion, to think, to create. If we didn't have that gift could we have science?

At the BRC I learned I can't judge people so quickly either.
LOL
I blame the BRC for many things.

[Elderberry]

Sorry, there are bad preachers, theives, hypocrites and all that. But for every bad one that makes the headlines, there are probably 1000 others helping people out in their everyday lives.

Tell that to the catholic church.

JK

[goathead]

Sorry, there are bad preachers, theives, hypocrites and all that. But for every bad one that makes the headlines, there are probably 1000 others helping people out in their everyday lives.

Tell that to the catholic church.

JK

Without a problem.

[Eric]

i submit that there are far more "unobserved" phenomena than otherwise.

I have no doubt.

But I intrepret "unobservered" more like something that cannot be 'observe' directly, like black holes in the universe for example, but can be theorized to exist because of the 'observable' effects they have on 'observable' objects around them.

I also believe that our knowledge of the universe is extremely limited and that there are many things we have yet to discover and learn about; but I do not ascribe the answers to that which we do not yet understand to any 'god'.

JK

Okay, I'm an idiot & I'm jumping in one more time, playing with JK's beloved science.

Fact: every documented human society ever found either historically or still around has had a "religion" of some sort- a set of codes to live by combined with a system of rewards or punishments for breaking said code (and, at it's core, this is sort of what religion distills down to).

Modern research & studies on this in multiple fields: evolution, neuroscience, cultural anthropology etc are showing that humans are most likely hard-wired to evolve religion (using the distillation above) as a way to live in communities & regulate conflict. That's science talking, not religion.

I know you've said your mind is closed like a steel drum (just like any other religious person who refuses to look outside their own beliefs because they may be challenged), but you might want to look into reading two fantastic Scientific books on the subject, both by David Sloan Wilson: Evolution for Everyone and Darwin's Cathedral.

See, while you claim to be scientific but close your mind, I have no fear of religion and open mine. My beliefs don't need to be sealed off from the real world and defended as if they can be taken from me, because growing and changing and learning isn't threatening. It's life.

[goathead]

Hey Thirt33n...

my non-god can kick your non-god's non-ass.

But will they do it in fruit cocktail?

[ygmir]

I'm seeing more of a "Mothra vs Godzilla" thing...........

[ygmir]

on second thought, perhaps,
Moe vs Curly............

[goathead]

I'm seeing more of a "Mothra vs Godzilla" thing...........

Fruit cocktal is way more entertaining though.
LOL
Just ask Simon.

[Eric]

Modern research & studies on this in multiple fields: evolution, neuroscience, cultural anthropology etc are showing that humans are most likely hard-wired to evolve religion (using the distillation above) as a way to live in communities & regulate conflict. That's science talking, not religion.

Oh, since I realize I'm probably going to be asked for cites by someone:

Evolving Brains, JM Almann, Scientific American Library

In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion, S. Altran, Oxford University Press

The Evolution of Cooperation, R Axelrod, Basic Books

The Adapted Mind, Evolutionary Psychology and the Generation of Culture, JK Barkow, L Cosmides & J Tooby, eds, Oxford University Press

Those are an easy four, I can spew out several hundred more you won't ever read if you need me to.

I say stick to Sloan Wilson.

Can we go Marx Brothers?

[goathead]

See, while you claim to be scientific but close your mind, I have no fear of religion and open mine. My beliefs don't need to be sealed off from the real world and defended as if they can be taken from me, because growing and changing and learning isn't threatening. It's life.

Very Nice.
Thank you Eric.

[Elderberry]

Modern research & studies on this in multiple fields: evolution, neuroscience, cultural anthropology etc are showing that humans are most likely hard-wired to evolve religion (using the distillation above) as a way to live in communities & regulate conflict. That's science talking, not religion.

Oh, since I realize I'm probably going to be asked for cites by someone:

Evolving Brains, JM Almann, Scientific American Library

In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion, S. Altran, Oxford University Press

The Evolution of Cooperation, R Axelrod, Basic Books

The Adapted Mind, Evolutionary Psychology and the Generation of Culture, JK Barkow, L Cosmides & J Tooby, eds, Oxford University Press

Those are an easy four, I can spew out several hundred more you won't ever read if you need me to.

I say stick to Sloan Wilson.

Can we go Marx Brothers?

Hey Eric, I actually am familiar with those works and several others published in Scientific American. I don't have any problem in understanding why we humans 'believe'. My problem is with the faulty wiring that causes it to be necessary.

JK

PS and don't get me wrong, we are having a discussion among strangers where I feel free to express my most extreme views on this (and just about any) topic here. If we or littleflower or anyone else that has been on the other side of this argument, would ever meet; I would be much more tolerant and civilized. If someone finds solice in something and it helps to make life easier for them, it is really not in my character to want to take that away from them; and if the topic came up, I'd probably just remain silent. (Like I do with my partner! )



JK

[goathead]

I don't have any problem in understanding why we humans 'believe'. My problem is with the faulty wiring that causes it to be necessary.

How do you know it's faulty?

PS and don't get me wrong, we are having a discussion among strangers where I feel free to express my most extreme views on this (and just about any) topic here. If we or littleflower or anyone else that has been on the other side of this argument, would ever meet; I would be much more tolerant and civilized. If someone finds solice in something and it helps to make life easier for them, it is really not in my character to want to take that away from them; and if the topic came up, I'd probably just remain silent. (Like I do with my partner! )
JK

Many years ago my wife laid down the law with me on the playa,
no religion, no politics. Really smart lady.
Its so much more fun that way.

[Simon of the Playa]

[youtube][/youtube]

[goathead]

[youtube][/youtube]

It was more fun on the playa.

This isn't bad though.