Public Health care option is America Gifting!

All things outside of Burning Man.
Post Reply

Public Health Care is

Gifting
1
3%
Gifting
1
3%
morally correct and should not be considered gifting
7
23%
morally correct and should not be considered gifting
7
23%
I don't support gifting people with health care
2
7%
I don't support gifting people with health care
2
7%
I want those people that can't afford their own plan to die!
5
17%
I want those people that can't afford their own plan to die!
5
17%
 
Total votes: 30

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Public Health care option is America Gifting!

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:32 am

If you want to bring the Buringman gifting philosophy to the default world then there is no better then supporting the public health option.

I hope that you will become active to support the health care gifting now that the event is over!

Is covering everyone's health problems a form of Gifting in the Burning Man vein?

I say yes and that It is!

If you don't agree then, maybe Burningman philosophy of gifting is just an once in year event like Mardi Gras!

User avatar
joel the ornery
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:28 pm
Burning Since: 1998
Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Contact:

Post by joel the ornery » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:35 am

damn, canceled out your vote with mine.

interesting how that works, eh?

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29378
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:40 am

boy, is that a can of worms........

just doing "something" isn't good enough, it's gotta be done "right".......and, if done wrong the first time, it'll never be changed........

think about that before rushing to pass the first thing you see.......messianic divine proclamation, or not.......
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:47 am

joel the ornery wrote:damn, canceled out your vote with mine.

interesting how that works, eh?
See what happens when you don't go to the burn!

Better start planning for next year and make me some gifts- please!

Ygmir, that's what they're doing now and even if we gave them the next four years it will never be perfect and not everyone will like it. But we need to have the public option to give the Enrons of healthcare some competition!

AIIZ

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29378
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:59 am

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:
joel the ornery wrote:damn, canceled out your vote with mine.

interesting how that works, eh?
See what happens when you don't go to the burn!

Better start planning for next year and make me some gifts- please!

Ygmir, that's what they're doing now and even if we gave them the next four years it will never be perfect and not everyone will like it. But we need to have the public option to give the Enrons of healthcare some competition!

AIIZ
yeah, I'm good with vigorous, heated debate......flesh it all out, so "we" can see and understand the details.......take their time and get it as close to good as possible, knowing it'll never be perfect, or, good for everyone........

I hate that they write it in thousands of pages of "legalese", where no one, even them (by admission) can really understand what it says or means.........

Healthcare, to me, is such a maelstrom.......from tort reform, to greed, to corruption, to unnecessary regulation and oversight........it all drives the costs up......I lay a lot of the cost blame on our litigious society, and, the huge insurance costs for all involved.
Even pharmaceutical costs are driven up by fear of suit, IMHO, and insurance against same.........Of course, Thalidomide (sp?) and other events speak differently.

dang complicated, for sure........
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:05 am

But do you think that this (public healthcare) is a form of what Burning Man Gifting is about?

People, we don't want to hear from you have already posted in that other thread. Please read the question and reply to it.

AIIZ

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29378
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:26 am

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:But do you think that this (public healthcare) is a form of what Burning Man Gifting is about?
no.

I don't see it as a gift (or even possible to be a 'gift')........and, I have never seen a "gift" from the gov. without "strings" attached...........
I don't see our gov. as benevolent, in any sense......and, I don't see that changing, anytime soon.
I see gov. as only interested in power and self-aggrandizement, as well as justifying it's existence and "need".........

In BM terms, IMHO, healthcare would have to be only between my doctor, perhaps the hospital, and, me.......a personal negotiation, and, I don't think it could ever be "gifted" overall.......to much at stake. If the doc did it for free, I'd feel obligated to do something, for making me or mine well.........
and, it couldn't all be a gift, the doc, et al, have to eat and get stuff........

so,
the best I could envision, would be a system that is personal, as above stated, and, each would pay what they can, relating to the worth to them.

after all, what is your life worth?

Would you spend all you had, or will ever have, to keep yourself, or a loved one, alive? To get their arm or vision repaired?
bigger boobs?

very complicated, IMHO.........not sure I'm even clear on what I think about it, in total......
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

BG Jack Styles
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:29 am

Post by BG Jack Styles » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:28 am

those people that can't afford their own plan to die!
no one gets out alive, even the ones with healthcare insurance.

User avatar
Ugly Dougly
Posts: 17165
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Burning Since: 1996
Location: เชียงใหม่
Contact:

Post by Ugly Dougly » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:02 am

Rely on the will of Zeus. What, are ye of no faith?

User avatar
thisisthatwhichis
Posts: 3586
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:18 pm
Location: Reno, NV

Post by thisisthatwhichis » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:49 pm

When I "gift" at BM it's to someone of my choice, and usually due to something special about them.
I don't "gift" to just everyone (with their hand out).......
TITWI

To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting.
It's show time, folks.....Joe Gideon

lurker
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:23 pm

Post by lurker » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:25 pm

But do you think that this (public healthcare) is a form of what Burning Man Gifting is about?
It ain't gifting if it's required by law.
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

User avatar
CapSmashy
Posts: 1917
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:29 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Terminal City://404 Village Not Found
Location: Awesome Camp 2.0

Post by CapSmashy » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:39 pm

I view it as a moral responsibility of society at large to care for their own that are sick.

To expound upon Ygmir's excellent points, I will take it a step further to say I believe something as basic as healthcare being a profit motivated industry is obscene.

As our system exists now, it is in the best interests of doctors, hospitals, drug companies, etc to keep you sick and only treat the symptoms of your ailments. Continued treatment = profits = continued revenue streams. There is no money in a cure and a cure will not be truly sought as long as there are record profits to be made treating the symptoms indefinitely.

Then we have the business model of the insurance industry whose sole purpose is to collect money from you monthly and then fight you tooth and nail over access to your coverage when you actually need to utilize the coverage you have been faithfully paying for.
Playawaste Raiders cordially invites you to suck it.

User avatar
Elderberry
Moderator
Posts: 14683
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe
Location: Palm Springs
Contact:

Post by Elderberry » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:40 pm

All I can say is that about a year ago, when my private health insurance cost started going through the roof, I decided to check out the Veterans Administration. I was more impressed with the care I got there than from either Kaiser or my old Blue Cross policy, and it's next to free. I can only speak for the VA hospital in Los Angeles.

Government run, excellent care, extremely low cost. (could even be free if a veteran was below a certain income level.) What's not to like?

JK
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

User avatar
Ugly Dougly
Posts: 17165
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Burning Since: 1996
Location: เชียงใหม่
Contact:

Post by Ugly Dougly » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:59 pm

Did your theme camp pool resources, and did that help you save money?

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29378
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:22 pm

jkisha wrote:All I can say is that about a year ago, when my private health insurance cost started going through the roof, I decided to check out the Veterans Administration. I was more impressed with the care I got there than from either Kaiser or my old Blue Cross policy, and it's next to free. I can only speak for the VA hospital in Los Angeles.

Government run, excellent care, extremely low cost. (could even be free if a veteran was below a certain income level.) What's not to like?

JK
JK:

yeah, that is a good system. but, I bet, expanded to the entire nation, it'd be unworkable, as it is.........

Smashy:

I agree with you about the healthcare for profit.
I think, though, the sticking point is getting all those involved to agree........
Everyone wants to make as much money as they can.......and, the incentive, is, the better you are, the more you make.

to undo that, on the "consumers" end, IMHO, would take a few things:

One would be for healthcare workers and professionals, to dial back their income requirements.......
seems not likely.......

Two would be for government to pay whatever it is they decide is a fair wage for said workers....and, I'd bet, it'd be much less than they think they should get........and, whatever that wage is, it'd cost a lot more to "us", since it would be administered by yet another bureaucracy.....and one not usually interested in wise spending choices........

Three would be take the huge insurance costs and profits out........
costs related to lawsuits thrown all over the place, and, outrageous awards (not that some are not warranted), and, as you say, get the insurance companies to actually come through when they should

Four would be to get people to quit running to the doctor, and specifically the emergency room, for a hangnail......

I'm sure there are more, but, those are some of my thoughts.......
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

User avatar
littleflower
Posts: 3420
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:30 pm
Location: rainforest canopy

Post by littleflower » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:37 pm

i've always been happy with kaiser ... but i take absurdly good care of myself, and tend to go to the doctor only when something crazy is happening. but i know a lot of people who want nothing to do with low-cost HMO type insurance.

i know a lot of people who are prescribed drugs for every little thing, and expect someone else to pay for those drugs. the drug companies make a lot of money, but R & D for drug companies is enormous .. and, guess what, people want drugs. it's easier to take a drug than to eat healthy food, dammit!

doctors make a great deal of money ... but they also have a massive amount of work and $$$$$ invested in education, and it's a very high stress job. take the money out, and we will lose the quality.

in other words, i am never sure whether to blame insurance companies, drug companies, hospitals, health care professionals, or people ... seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around. ordinary people and their perceived needs are a HUGE part of the problem, even if no one dares say so.

and lawyers .... getting absurd settlements for people and then taking 30-40% for themselves .... they are the worst, IMO. we have compassion for the people who suffer, but i wonder how many people understand that WE are the ones who pay these settlements through insurance premiums and taxes. WE pay for everything ... including the lawyer's massive share. just because you don't see the bill doesn't mean you don't pay.

shifting the mess to the government will do nothing but create another inefficient, bankrupt government business, like the post office and medicare. it won't get better, it will get worse.

there is no easy answer...

User avatar
ALICEtheGOON
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:13 am
Location: B (.) (.) B Y B@R

Post by ALICEtheGOON » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:38 pm

This is the big question..

WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THIS ? obama has mentioned taxing the rich..

he would have to tax the living hell out of the rich to cover these costs .

we are talking TRILLIONS of dollars . We are losing general practice doctors at an alarming rate. Why ? the red tape the old school doctors have to deal with now . Use of emails ect. (I know this I work with them ;)

We have a nursing shortage as well . You think your Emergercy Room waits are long now? ....strap on your seat belts and take a number.

Should we cover illegals? If it is an emergency situation ..YES
otherwise ...NO. . Sorry ...come to this country legally

Socialized medicine will be a huge mistake .

We do need healthcare reform. You should not be turned down for actually being sick!! Insurance companies shouldnt limit coverage when you do get sick and NEED help ....and they do.

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:11 pm

someone said to the effect that if you take out the profit and people won't invest their time and money or become what they are today.

But what ever happen to nurse Nightengale and scientists or the doctors and even the LEO's or soldiers of today?

I think that they would still become what they want and they would be better at it because what and why they do it is in their hearts.

Teachers don't become teachers because "It's the money!" It because they love what they do and they see the success in their students when they graduate and go on into fields they believe they can make a Change!

People that become doctors, CEO's at health corps or cops because of their financial egos are the problem of defaultia.

People that don't have a health plan to prevent problems are the one that always use the emergency room when their conditions make them seek out medical care. In most states, you can be turned away from any treatment and no physician will risk the law suits if they did deny treatment.

Health care is cheaper when people are treated soon before their ailment progresses into the advance stage.

But I still think that we have a moral duty so everyone can see a doctor or dentist.

AIIZ

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29378
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:33 pm

I don't think anyone feels folks shouldn't get care if they need it.........

I think the argument is, how to do it?

as your hero Ross Perot said:

the devil is in the details...........

I'd also submit your smacking "pollyanna-ish" if you think people would become doctors, or whatever, if there wasn't good money involved...........
I bet the numbers, if it was only "for the good of humanity" would plummet..........as far as practitioners.......
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

User avatar
MsLynn707
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:25 pm
Location: Between the Pacific Ocean and The Black Rock Desert of Nevada

Gifting????

Post by MsLynn707 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:35 pm

END THE FRIGGING WARS ABROAD AND GUESS WHAT THE MONEY WILL APPEAR AND A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER THINGS NEEDED IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF AMERICA .......imho Aloha, ~~MsLynn~~

User avatar
ALICEtheGOON
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:13 am
Location: B (.) (.) B Y B@R

Re: Gifting????

Post by ALICEtheGOON » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:28 am

MsLynn707 wrote:END THE FRIGGING WARS ABROAD AND GUESS WHAT THE MONEY WILL APPEAR AND A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER THINGS NEEDED IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF AMERICA .......imho Aloha, ~~MsLynn~~
AGREED

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29378
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Re: Gifting????

Post by ygmir » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:50 am

MsLynn707 wrote:END THE FRIGGING WARS ABROAD AND GUESS WHAT THE MONEY WILL APPEAR AND A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER THINGS NEEDED IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF AMERICA .......imho Aloha, ~~MsLynn~~
*psst: your naivete is showing*...........
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

User avatar
joel the ornery
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:28 pm
Burning Since: 1998
Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Contact:

Post by joel the ornery » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:00 am

jkisha wrote:All I can say is that about a year ago, when my private health insurance cost started going through the roof, I decided to check out the Veterans Administration. I was more impressed with the care I got there than from either Kaiser or my old Blue Cross policy, and it's next to free. I can only speak for the VA hospital in Los Angeles.

Government run, excellent care, extremely low cost. (could even be free if a veteran was below a certain income level.) What's not to like?

JK
as a veteran, you earned that medical care. it was part of the contract.

how about a civil contract/national service requirement between the government giving health care.

there is no free lunches, as there is no free health care... unless you treat yourself for minor cuts and bruises.

ARRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

User avatar
joel the ornery
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:28 pm
Burning Since: 1998
Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Contact:

Re: Gifting????

Post by joel the ornery » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:02 am

MsLynn707 wrote:END THE FRIGGING WARS ABROAD AND GUESS WHAT THE MONEY WILL APPEAR AND A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER THINGS NEEDED IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF AMERICA .......imho Aloha, ~~MsLynn~~
you don't recall the peace dividend we all got when the Iron Curtain fell?

User avatar
Ugly Dougly
Posts: 17165
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Burning Since: 1996
Location: เชียงใหม่
Contact:

Post by Ugly Dougly » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:05 am

Right. If you need government funded health insurance, join the military. Nobody is grousing about the cost of the VA. :)

I'll take one plank from the Natural Law Party, and Benjamin Franklin - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If the gov't would fund prevention programs, nobody, even the insurance fat cats, could complain about that, and you can bet that our overall health would improve - which is the objective, isn't it?

User avatar
joel the ornery
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:28 pm
Burning Since: 1998
Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Contact:

Post by joel the ornery » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:11 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:Nobody is grousing about the cost of the VA.
well, if you don't like the VA model, i would guess you really aren't going to like publicly funded medicine.
I'll take one plank from the Natural Law Party, and Benjamin Franklin - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If the gov't would fund prevention programs, nobody, even the insurance fat cats, could complain about that, and you can bet that our overall health would improve - which is the objective, isn't it?
i agree, prevention is the appropriate method... wait until government mandated exercise programs for everyone.

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29378
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Post by ygmir » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:47 am

and, it'll be fun to all wear the same uniform.........

Image
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
Posts: 20178
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:23 am
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art
Location: Wild, Wild West
Contact:

Post by AntiM » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:06 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:Right. If you need government funded health insurance, join the military. Nobody is grousing about the cost of the VA. :)

I'll take one plank from the Natural Law Party, and Benjamin Franklin - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If the gov't would fund prevention programs, nobody, even the insurance fat cats, could complain about that, and you can bet that our overall health would improve - which is the objective, isn't it?
Well, plenty of vets grouse about the service provided by the VA program. It is better than nothing, but by no means easy to navigate. MyLarry and myself are eligible for services, but we don't often use the VA.

If you want good health care, serve 20 years in the military, enroll in Tricare Prime and pay the premiums. Or marry someone who did. My out of pocket medical costs are embarrassingly low.

For great lifetime health care, get elected to Congress.

For the record, Tricare and the military are much bigger on prevention than they were in the past. The Navy is getting aggressive with smoking and are looking to a smoke-free service in the future. That should be interesting.

lurker
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:23 pm

Post by lurker » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:12 pm

I say again, elective surgery procedures are getting better and prices are becoming more and more affordable because they have to compete.

The medical care that people feel should be a right had reams and reams of regulation designed to keep it from being like it's elective cousin--yet it is getting MORE expensive and quality is lagging.

The profit motive makes a difference everywhere else--why should it not make a difference here?
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

User avatar
Mister Satan
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:56 am
Location: North Dallas, Texas Republic
Contact:

Post by Mister Satan » Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:26 am

I am all for doing something about health care in this country. But I feel that referring to it as gifting would be very inaccurate. Gifting is voluntary. Health care would be paid for with taxes. If you go long enough without paying your taxes. Eventually friendly government employees with guns and body armour will come to visit you.
If you are not freaked out by nudity please check out my gallery on deviant ART
http://art-terrorist.deviantart.com/

Post Reply

Return to “Open Discussion”