Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

[gyre]

Ygmir, I think you're overestimating the complexity of the kalashnikov system.
It's extremely clever, but very simple.
The entire goal of it is to work in spite of all kinds of abuse.
It's kind of hard to get it to not work.
The only simpler approach is bolt action.
The hard part of the design is to get to to limit to single fire and that has been well sorted.

This is the entire single fire trigger group, usa made for $30.

[ygmir]

we're on different pages........I'm not that fucking stupid.
we're not talking the same thing, IMHO.
yes, you are right, Kalishinkov is simple, I know them very well........there's more to what i'm saying than that, and, in a different vein.........

[gyre]

I thought that was what you were talking about.
Not everyone is familiar with them.
I wasn't, until I started tinkering with them.

[gyre]

You're going to love this.
My friend's SUB2000 is a 223.
You might want to see if you can find one of those.
That's one 223 I'd like to have.
He said he doesn't have one bad thing to say about it.


What do you think of the RFB?
I think it might be an interesting gun.
Too bad it's so high.



http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/rfb.htm

[ygmir]

I bet you couldn't hit the broad side of a Lincoln with one of those........even from a grass knoll........

[gyre]

It's 11 pounds with the 32" barrel.
Might be stable with that one.


Did I ever tell you I once got to handle a civilian sniper rifle?
That's not a term you hear often.
They were made for the british resistance when hitler invaded.
Huge scope.
Someone who had never held a rifle before could hit someone with that thing.
I think they were made from modified olympic target rifles.
Blackest gun I've ever seen.
They were intended to kill british citizens that were security risks.

That's war up close.

[gyre]

Thinking of picking up this to add to the "collection". Thoughts?

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm

I'm sorry to say there was some confusion of models.
There is no 223 SUB 2000 variant.
My friend has one of the folding Keltec 223 rifles.
He is very enthusiastic about it, which is high praise indeed.
I kind of like their 223 handgun myself.

Sorry about the confusion.

[Ugly Dougly]

How much range do you need for home defense?

Just a question I'm asking (as an infantry-qualified vet).

[Sail Man]

Thinking of picking up this to add to the "collection". Thoughts?

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm

I'm sorry to say there was some confusion of models.
There is no 223 SUB 2000 variant.
My friend has one of the folding Keltec 223 rifles.
He is very enthusiastic about it, which is high praise indeed.
I kind of like their 223 handgun myself.

Sorry about the confusion.

No sweat. I was checking gun genie online and the 9mm version is out of stock everywhere. Seems to be off and on with that per other forums but I'm reading alot of nice things about it. I do love the .223 but I'm trying to keep my ammo variety down some. As it is, I have to stock 6 diff. rounds so if I could get a 9mm assault weapon that would save me a new round. My Hungarian M44 is 7.62 but it's x54 not x39. If it was one and the same I'd go with an AK variant.

[ygmir]

don't over think it.............

some folks think they "need" so much variety.

Dougly brings up a good point.......and, a shotgun, inside 75' is always the best, and, has less chance of killing a neighbor..........unless....well.......

and, a slug in a shotgun is devastating, even to engine blocks.

Most "gun fights" (civilian) are over in less than 5 shots, by both parties.........
find statistics for yourself, but, I'm pretty sure I remember that correctly.

any rifle, will, penetrate your target (assuming human or animal), and, still go through a wall and maybe a few more, depending on the cartridge and projectile. Think collateral damage.

look at intended use..........range..........cost.

new, fancy guns and calibers, are harder to find parts for or get fixed, and ammo can be more scarce......
If, you're thinking EOW or something like that.............think of what is most available and common..........

your "Radiclinker .460 magnum"......is no good if you run out of bullets and no stores stock them............or, if it needs a 26 cent, titanium pin........

just sayin'.........

[gyre]

How much range do you need for home defense?

Just a question I'm asking (as an infantry-qualified vet).

I consider range more a matter of accuracy than power.

My last gunfight started at one metre, maximum was twenty.
In the industrial environment I was dealing with until recently, I'd say 100 metres might be useful.
In a rural environment, it could vary a lot.

Home invasions are the rule now, often with blitz attacks.
You want to be very capable in dealing with multiple attackers.

An unusual example is the robbery and attempted murder I posted about, where the wife fired from upstairs past her husband stopping one attacker.
She has been interviewed since then, and it turns out her gun jammed.
She said she would have stopped both of them if she had cleared her gun faster.
This was an occasion where much more range than normal was called for, especially as her husband was in the line of fire.
Funny that she was a good enough shot, but hadn't trained enough to clear the weapon.
The basic class is very rudimentary, but they offer much more.

For me a 308 or higher calibre would be for target practice.
There is a potential advantage in dealing with a vehicle.
The 50 BMG is known to stop vehicles quite reliably.

But I'll be using the 7.62 with the 16" barrel, and I'd go shorter if it was legal.
Definitely not a long range rifle like that, and it loses a lot of power as well as accuracy.

[gyre]

Want to know what crime is like here?
On the news now, a man was robbed and kidnapped.
They took him to a different location and set the car on fire, with him in it.

He was rescued by residents from the trunk and is in critical condition.

[Ugly Dougly]

Thank you Yggy. It's just that my little bit of history as a "leg" was the First Sergeant theoretically pointing out a bunch of strangers, probably just a bunch of scared recruits from a different land, whom I'd probably have a beer with, if it weren't for a bunch of power-hungry bureaucrats, and pulling my trigger at the poor guys.

Now in civilian life, I don't see myself having any trouble with anyone that I'm not within speaking distance of - a handful of yards. What kind of threat could any person do me from 100 yards even if I had a big country estate, such as our more fortunate brothers here have? A trespasser? Filching my chickens? Sampling my tomato crop? You would have to do a lot more harm to me than that, before I am ready to dream about their corpses for the rest of my life.

So a pistol is fine for me. But rifles are fun to play with, huh?

[gyre]

Thank you Yggy. It's just that my little bit of history as a "leg" was the First Sergeant theoretically pointing out a bunch of strangers, probably just a bunch of scared recruits from a different land, whom I'd probably have a beer with, if it weren't for a bunch of power-hungry bureaucrats, and pulling my trigger at the poor guys.

Now in civilian life, I don't see myself having any trouble with anyone that I'm not within speaking distance of - a handful of yards. What kind of threat could any person do me from 100 yards even if I had a big country estate, such as our more fortunate brothers here have? A trespasser? Filching my chickens? Sampling my tomato crop? You would have to do a lot more harm to me than that, before I am ready to dream about their corpses for the rest of my life.

So a pistol is fine for me. But rifles are fun to play with, huh?

I was surprised and had so much adrenaline in me during the home invasion, I'm surprised I hit anything, if I did.
I still don't know for sure.
It's huge advantage in that situation to have two hands on a weapon, even a short one.
And nice to have a chance at stopping one person with one shot, if there is more than one.
And they often shoot first these days.

At a distance, you might have to protect someone else, like the wife mentioned.
Or a home invasion might occur with some warning with a long drive.
Unfortunately robbers are not surprised or dissuaded by someone being at home any longer.
I think they wait for someone to be at home.
They definitely did in my case.
You can thank effective alarm systems and a total disregard for others lives for that.

Land is probably cheaper here.
If you move far enough out, an acre isn't prohibitive, though it keeps getting higher as more people move out there.

[Ugly Dougly]

I was surprised and had so much adrenaline in me during the home invasion, I'm surprised I hit anything, if I did.

Absolutely, Gyre, your regrettable experience can help others to learn. Just as in "street" self-defense (empty hand), it's not the dojo techniques or fancy hardware but your level of awareness that'll get you to the other side of it.

I still don't know for sure.
It's huge advantage in that situation to have two hands on a weapon, even a short one.
And nice to have a chance at stopping one person with one shot, if there is more than one.
And they often shoot first these days.

True, but that's not an argument for a rifle. Muzzle velocity does not equate to stopping power.

At a distance, you might have to protect someone else, like the wife mentioned.
Or a home invasion might occur with some warning with a long drive.

Theoretically... It's probably good for your peace of mind to have options, but too many people have an image of them shooting the gun out of someone's hand. It's hard enough for the cops. Go ahead and ask a cop if he can detect bad guys from 100 yards away, and get them on the first shot without endangering anyone else.

Just questions I am asking. I've been in the survivalist "hobby" since the Red Scare days. (Big fan of Mas Ayooband Marc MacYoungBTW) I do see a lot of people making what I consider ill-considered conclusions.

But then, I'm urban for the time being. A pistol in the sock drawer will suffice for me - although my sword is a lot closer to the front door...

[gyre]

Other than one incident with someone suicidal, I've never even heard of someone trying to shoot at someone's hand.
That wouldn't be my first shot.

It may be surprising, but when someone means you harm, it can be very obvious.

[ygmir]

somehow, Gyre, it seems you keep overlooking the velocity/energy/projectile vs collateral damage/unintended consequences........and again, I'd bet it's easier to hit a target with a shotgun than a pistol (and goes along with your two hand on the gun theory)......and, said shotgun pellets are very unlikely to penetrate a neighbors walls........ or yours, if you're using 8 or smaller shot, which, is suggested for indoors......or 2 or smaller outdoors
even your 9mm will penetrate sheetrock walls......let alone go 200yards down the street.

sure, go "sniping" at 100 yds, or more, but, as Dougly said, how you gonna know who they are or what they're doing? Unless, it's full on war........

and, you really gonna kill someone over tomatoes or chickens? even a t.v.?.......

[gyre]

sure, go "sniping" at 100 yds, or more, but, as Dougly said, how you gonna know who they are or what they're doing? Unless, it's full on war........

When they fire on me or point a gun at me.
Then you know.
It happens often enough from a distance, that my friend is building a longer barreled AK.

And you don't have to hit anyone as long as you can keep them from hitting you.
I find being shot at ruins my aim.
I hope that's true of anyone shooting at me too.


As for overkill, after my home invasion they put a contract out on me.
I kept much more firepower around then, because of that.
Once they tried to lure me into an ambush.
As far as I know, the threat is still there.
But I am too.

[gyre]

somehow, Gyre, it seems you keep overlooking the velocity/energy/projectile vs collateral damage/unintended consequences........and again, I'd bet it's easier to hit a target with a shotgun than a pistol (and goes along with your two hand on the gun theory)......and, said shotgun pellets are very unlikely to penetrate a neighbors walls........ or yours, if you're using 8 or smaller shot, which, is suggested for indoors......or 2 or smaller outdoors
even your 9mm will penetrate sheetrock walls......let alone go 200yards down the street.

sure, go "sniping" at 100 yds, or more, but, as Dougly said, how you gonna know who they are or what they're doing? Unless, it's full on war........

and, you really gonna kill someone over tomatoes or chickens? even a t.v.?.......

Why would you say this?
I've acknowledged backstop issues repeatedly.

And, depending on choke, I think a shotgun close in can penetrate a wall too.
I've blown a lot of holes in things with a shotgun full of birdshot.
Further away, as it spreads, the risk is less.

And I have seen short barreled AK rounds fired in houses.
One went through various detritus and then penetrated the plaster wall, but only barely.
As you say, a backstop is an issue with any size round, even a 22.

And I never said anything about tvs.

Remember that they are always willing to kill you and anyone else to take a tv or even $5.
I'm okay with shooting someone for putting me and others at risk.
But the law here only allows you to fire to protect yourself or others.
I believe in assumed risk for criminals.
I hope that becomes the law everywhere.

But in violation of all training, I did all I could to save the life of the people trying to murder me.
It was stupid, but a gut reaction.
It isn't that easy to pull the trigger.
That could have gotten me killed.

[gyre]

I still don't know for sure.
It's huge advantage in that situation to have two hands on a weapon, even a short one.
And nice to have a chance at stopping one person with one shot, if there is more than one.
And they often shoot first these days.

True, but that's not an argument for a rifle. Muzzle velocity does not equate to stopping power.

There are so many variables there, that we did our own testing.
Not muzzle velocity, but I do think foot pounds of force does have more stopping power, if only from hydrostatic force.
I do somewhat buy the argument of dispersed force having more effect, but there are so many ifs.
I used to carry rounds like this, but have now compromised on the DPX round for handguns.
The place where I trained has concluded that the only guarantee is a hole.

Our little test was very dramatic as power increased.
And the difference between standard and self defense rounds in a handgun was quite impressive.
I did find I like a 45 handgun much more than I expected, and I found it very easy to fire.

But I am aware that a 22 can drop a polar bear, if you're a good enough shot.
I would just hope he's not standing behind a seal or something.

[cowboyangel]

I still want the Puke Gun, light emitting diode thing.....

[gyre]

No sweat. I was checking gun genie online and the 9mm version is out of stock everywhere. Seems to be off and on with that per other forums but I'm reading alot of nice things about it. I do love the .223 but I'm trying to keep my ammo variety down some. As it is, I have to stock 6 diff. rounds so if I could get a 9mm assault weapon that would save me a new round. My Hungarian M44 is 7.62 but it's x54 not x39. If it was one and the same I'd go with an AK variant.

I think the SUB is an excellent gun.
But I would urge you to choose it on its merits rather than ammo.
For portability and compatibility with a 9mm hangun you might carry at the same time, it's a great choice.

But as a general rifle, I think 9mm is really more expensive ammo.
From what I can see, to reach 600 ft/lbs force, you'll pay $2 a round or make your own.
The 7.62 x 39 ammo was part of my reason for choosing that system.
The whole kalashnikov design is so conservative and that keeps the ammo extremely cheap, besides the quantities produced.
A really crappy 7.62 round should still produce 1200 foot pounds of force, more than adequate.
With handgun rounds and even 223 rounds (being high pressure), the quality is crucial.
With the 7.62, most people just opt for milspec rounds for self defense, though there are higher end rounds produced.
The power that can be gained is minimal, due to the design.
That low pressure design helps make the weapon virtually indestructible.
That is why a very well used AK can be such a reliable choice.
I don't know that I would want an M16 that had seen a couple of wars.

But it's your choice.
I think you would have more fun with the larger round.
I see the SUB as an enhanced handgun.
Brilliant for what it is and priced right.
But if you have any interest in the VZ, I don't think these exceptional prices will last forever, especially for one with the original chrome lined barrel.
They are very underpriced for what they are.
You won't see those being reproduced cheaply, if at all.

Right now 7.62 ammo is very cheap again.
Any reload only has to be adequate, if it comes to that.

[gyre]

I still want the Puke Gun, light emitting diode thing.....

I saw that on tv.
It looks scary.
I can see it working, after my success with mismatched strobes.
And that was just two light sources.
They claim color is a large part of the effect with that thing.

[gyre]

don't over think it.............

some folks think they "need" so much variety.

Dougly brings up a good point.......and, a shotgun, inside 75' is always the best, and, has less chance of killing a neighbor..........unless....well.......

and, a slug in a shotgun is devastating, even to engine blocks.

Most "gun fights" (civilian) are over in less than 5 shots, by both parties.........
find statistics for yourself, but, I'm pretty sure I remember that correctly.

any rifle, will, penetrate your target (assuming human or animal), and, still go through a wall and maybe a few more, depending on the cartridge and projectile. Think collateral damage.

look at intended use..........range..........cost.

new, fancy guns and calibers, are harder to find parts for or get fixed, and ammo can be more scarce......
If, you're thinking EOW or something like that.............think of what is most available and common..........

your "Radiclinker .460 magnum"......is no good if you run out of bullets and no stores stock them............or, if it needs a 26 cent, titanium pin........

just sayin'.........

End of Watch?
?

I do like the idea of a Saiga 20 gauge.
More expensive than an AK parts kit though.

[ygmir]

No sweat. I was checking gun genie online and the 9mm version is out of stock everywhere. Seems to be off and on with that per other forums but I'm reading a lot of nice things about it. I do love the .223 but I'm trying to keep my ammo variety down some. As it is, I have to stock 6 diff. rounds so if I could get a 9mm assault weapon that would save me a new round. My Hungarian M44 is 7.62 but it's x54 not x39. If it was one and the same I'd go with an AK variant.

I think the SUB is an excellent gun.
But I would urge you to choose it on its merits rather than ammo.
For portability and compatibility with a 9mm hangun you might carry at the same time, it's a great choice.

But as a general rifle, I think 9mm is really more expensive ammo.
From what I can see, to reach 600 ft/lbs force, you'll pay $2 a round or make your own.
The 7.62 x 39 ammo was part of my reason for choosing that system.
The whole kalashnikov design is so conservative and that keeps the ammo extremely cheap, besides the quantities produced.
A really crappy 7.62 round should still produce 1200 foot pounds of force, more than adequate.
With handgun rounds and even 223 rounds (being high pressure), the quality is crucial.
With the 7.62, most people just opt for milspec rounds for self defense, though there are higher end rounds produced.
The power that can be gained is minimal, due to the design.
That low pressure design helps make the weapon virtually indestructible.
That is why a very well used AK can be such a reliable choice.
I don't know that I would want an M16 that had seen a couple of wars.

But it's your choice.
I think you would have more fun with the larger round.
I see the SUB as an enhanced handgun.
Brilliant for what it is and priced right.
But if you have any interest in the VZ, I don't think these exceptional prices will last forever, especially for one with the original chrome lined barrel.
They are very underpriced for what they are.
You won't see those being reproduced cheaply, if at all.

Right now 7.62 ammo is very cheap again.
Any reload only has to be adequate, if it comes to that.

except, that, your 1200 ft. lbs. is not totally transferred to the target.
the bullet pass through, carrying most of that energy out the back with it........
anti-personnel rounds are large diameter, heavy, slow moving.......
IMHO.......
that's why a shotgun works so well.....all the energy is transferred, since, the pellets don't go out the other side........and, same with .45 acp.......big, slow, but, the entire force is transmitted to the target......

a 1200 ft. lb. projectile, if it comes out the back with still 1000 ft.lbs (very possible, especially with FMJ rounds), only transfers 200 ft. lbs.

that slow .45 with 400 ft. lbs (depending on ammo, of course) will not pass through, thereby delivering the entire energy to the target.......
so, actually, in this scenario, delivers more energy to said target.

Perhaps, that's why the military, through extensive testing, adopted Colts cartridge as the optimal stopping power/shootability.

They only went to 9mm due to folks not able to handle the recoil of the .45, along with higher magazine capacity and, marginally better armor penetration. IIRC.

Now, all this is understanding an un-armored target. If , you "have" to shoot through a car door, wall, whatever, to hit said target, then, I'll go with the need for more penetrating capacity.

Otherwise, I defy you to show me anything better, withing 75', than, a shotgun, or, .45 acp.

Respectfully submitted, and, with reliance upon your willingness and ability to prove me "full of shit"............

[gyre]

I'm not really equipped to break down all the physics involved.
But I can assure you that a 45 auto is not comparable in damage to the 7.62, even from the short barrel.
The 45 is not that slow a round either, except as compared to rifle rounds.
It is a more than adequate round for a handgun though.
If it fails to penetrate a target, it is due to it's much larger frontal area than a 9mm, and lack of power.
Transfer of force must be ascribed to that surface area.
When we tested a self defense 45 round, the increase in power was amazing over a standard round.
Very impressive.
It also expanded fully in a few inches of water.
But it did not compare to a run of the mill 7.62 x 39 fired from a 16" barrel.

The wider base has a better burn characteristic that lends itself to longer barrels too.
The diameter of the cartridge is it's benefit and disadvantage.
It slows down very rapidly in the air, losing power and accuracy.
More importantly, it takes up space, in the weapon, the mechanism and so on.
Because the weapons tend to be heavier, and the firing characteristics are different, I find the 45 very easy to fire.
I think it's the most effective round among common handgun sizes.
There are some unusual rounds with more power than a 12 gauge shotgun shell, like the 454 Casull, but the usual questions come up of gun handling, rate of fire, physical size and so on.

I don't know if something different is happening with these different rounds, or if it all balances out as physical force.
I suspect that it may be like the difference in being hit with a hammer or run through with a spear.
I don't have any numbers, but the percentage of force transferred was dramatically higher with the rifle.
Since it has about 300% of the power of the 45, it isn't too unexpected.
We wanted to know how it worked, so we tried it.
You should too.

Both rounds went straight through, transferring power to the water in the process.
It is notable how effectively the 45 expanded in only water and thin plastic.
I don't think this was due to a particular round.
I think the wider round slows more rapidly and this ensures flattening.

There are DPX 7.62 rounds and fragmenting Glaser rounds too.
So spreading of force can be enhanced this way too.
The Glaser should help in penetration issues, or at least any ricochets.

As for the shotgun, I'm guessing you're referring to the 12 gauge?
These use as much powder as 1.5 308 rounds.
They are very inefficient, but produce a lot of force for a short range.
I think total power transferred to a target is about the same as the short barreled 7.62.
More than adequate usually.
There are some disadvantages in spreading force out, and some advantages.

A shotgun is what I recommended to my friend with the SKS rifle.
Plenty of different ammo choices and fairly idiot proof.
The best choice for most people going beyond a handgun.
I do think people are too confident about not needing to be accurate.
You still have to hit what you aim at.
I do think a rifle is more likely to drop someone, but up close it really doesn't matter.

I saw a documentary on war or something and they were discussing how through and through wounds have changed.
The same apparent wound becomes much more deadly with increases in power.
And difficult to treat.
The high force transferred in a seemingly clean wound path does a lot of damage.
Perhaps it is comparable to the deer you mentioned hitting and found the meat to have been turned to mush?

______________________________


Over Penetration / Under Penetration

Before we get too comfortable with the power of the better handgun rounds, it is worth noting that penetration has been enough of an issue with heftier criminals in shootouts, even without ballistic vests, that it has been widely considered a problem.
And heavy winter clothing can even cause issues.
Glaser has had to come up with the silver glaser to deal with this and some agencies have revised calibre choices.

And while we both regard the medium power AK and the shotgun as being very adequate weapons, I have a friend who has been shot by kalashnikovs many times, and survived it all, usually killing the people firing at him.
It's true he has a round and muscular physique, an advantage in these cases, but it's not good to be too confident of these things.

___________________________

I found an interesting 45, by Para Ordnance.
6.5" by 4.5". 10 rounds.

______________________________

Some general specs on ammo-

* Caliber: 9mm Luger Plus P
* Bullet Wt.: 115gr Self-Defense DPX
* Velocity: 1250fps
* Energy: 399ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 4.0 Inches

* Caliber: 45 Auto Plus P
* Bullet Wt.: 185gr Self-Defense DPX
* Velocity: 1075fps
* Energy: 475ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 5.0 Inches

* Caliber: 7.62X39
* Bullet Wt.: 123gr Self-Defense DPX
* Velocity: 2300fps
* Energy: 1445ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 16.0 Inches
__________________________________
* Caliber: 9mm Luger Plus P
* Bullet Wt.: 90gr COR®BON Self-Defense JHP
* Velocity: 1350fps
* Energy: 466ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 4.0 Inches

* Caliber: 45 Auto Plus P
* Bullet Wt.: 165gr COR®BON Self-Defense JHP
* Velocity: 1250fps
* Energy: 573ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 5.0 Inches

* Caliber: 45 Auto Plus P
* Bullet Wt.: 200gr COR®BON Self-Defense JHP
* Velocity: 1050fps
* Energy: 490ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 5.0 Inches

* Caliber: 7.62x39
* Bullet Wt.: 125gr COR®BON Self-Defense JHP
* Velocity: 2400fps
* Energy: 1600ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 18.5 Inches

* Caliber: 7.62x39
* Bullet Wt.: 150gr COR®BON Hunter JSP
* Velocity: 2300fps
* Energy: 1762ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 20.0 Inches
_____________________________
Glaser Safety Blue

* Caliber: 7.62x39
* Bullet Wt.: 130gr
* Velocity: 2300fps
* Energy: 1527ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 18.5 Inches

* Caliber: 45 Auto Plus P
* Bullet Wt.: 145gr
* Velocity: 1350fps
* Energy: 587ftlbs
* Test Barrel Length: 5.0 Inches

[ygmir]

I'll tell ya, Gyre, what I appreciate about these long winded posts, by both of us:

hopefully, it gets info and opinions (which vary), out in the open and available to some who may not have as much experience, allowing a more informed decision.

Thanks for that.

[Ugly Dougly]

It happens often enough from a distance, that my friend is building a longer barreled AK.

Gyre, it sounds like you're in the middle of a war of some kind. In that case I would probably dig up my non-existent assault rifles and a couple of my hardcore friends.

But in most cases, the truly dangerous beings are not going to stand up at 100 or even 50 yards, wave a gun and holler, "I'm gonna kill you!" Google up sucker punch if you like, but your experience in home invasion robberies should inform you on this. When the shit hits the fan, there's usually little warning, which is usually ignored by all but dogs and barbarians.

[geospyder]

I'll jump in and then jump out. I'm not a hard core gun fanatic. I have one gun - an XD40. I'm proficient but not expert. I shoot 200-300 rounds per month with a small group. Not IDPA but along the same line - defensive scenarios. I have debated about picking up a .22 rifle of some kind for plinking and small game if the need arose. As far as the SHTF scenario I do have a BO bag in the house and each vehicle, but that is more basic survival for natural disasters. OK – I’m jumping out.

[Ugly Dougly]

I did a little of that. Thinking of making my SA 1911 into a nice "race gun". Truly, for indoor scenarios, a well tuned autopistol with decent practice is at least equal to "spray and pray" with a subgun. IMHO.

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