Tech Question...

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:45 pm

We installed a backup genny on my brothers place.

When theres a power outage it kicks on automaticly.

Should be able to rig the same set up to any power sorce.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:43 pm

gyre wrote:Would a manual override be acceptable?

there's no "manual override" as far as I can see....each panel has a "micro inverter", sealed.
They run in parallel, each making 2 110V outputs,(220 single phase) and, run in parallel to the power panel.

yeah, I have a genny, Figjam.......but, I'm trying to power with the solar panels when the grid is down.
I've got 2500 watts (peak, max) available from the system, so, hate to not use it when the power goes out.

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:08 pm

Thats what I ment by any power sorce.

The circuit should work weather its coming from a genny or your panels.

Just incorperate the same circuit for your panels. No?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:12 pm

If I understand what you're saying, I'd need to run the genny constantly to activate the solar panels.....it has to be constant background "grid" power to keep them "on".

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:24 pm

No.

If you had no genny and just wanted the backup sorce to ingage when the power outage happened, wouldnt the same circuit work for the solor that activates my brothers genny when the power goes out here?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:45 pm

where, does the "back up" energy come from, if not a genny?
It needs background/grid power, to sense and then activate the inverters.
So, it needs constant background power, from somewhere.........
I'm mostly wondering, how it tells the difference between "grid" power and another solar panel, or genny, for that matter.
but, the power for it to sense has to be constant.

I would think, your brothers genny, is engaged, when, the grid goes down, and, then, a switch turns the mains off, and, starts the genny, and then, engages it's feed to the main panel in the house, while islating it from the "grid".

different animal, I think.

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:15 pm

When it sences no power in the system it activates the genny.

The genny has a 12volt battery to start it and that keeps the circuit live.

If you want the solor system to activate when the power goes out couldnt you use the same type of sensor circuit?

I may have missunderstood your goal as I have had many burs this evening and am feeling very social, but aint going out in this condition.

I cant read, but I can figger it out.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:41 pm

yeah.....no.

the 12V just senses no power and starts the process for the genny.

What I need, is a 110/220V background power, in the system.
Not to start the cells.....they're already going.
But, when they sense the loss of grid power, they shut off.
It's a safety thing, so as not to shock line workers downstream.

So, I need house current, available, in the line, when the grid is down. But, not the current from those panels, since, I'd guess it's made to not identify it's own current as "grid" power.
So, somehow, I need to either loop the panel power back, but change the frequency or something, to match "grid" power, or, have another power source, constant (like my small solar inverter) to backfeed my personal power grid, on my property, so the big array keeps generating.

If I knew more about electricity, I'd bet it's fairly simple, to find what the micro inverters on my panels look for, from the "grid" and, copy that either with a backfeeding loop, or, with my other solar array.
I just don't want to burn up 10K worth of hardware, buy backfeeding it incorrectly.

dang me and my limited knowledge........

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:09 pm

Im not sure, but the break down seems to be the 110volt to 12volt .

The backup genny we have is going from 110 volt grid to 110volt genny.

Maybe thats where i see the problem.

When the 110power, goes out you want the 12volt to kick in?

I dont know if theres a cicuit for that.

The 110 sorce to 110 backup is done, but the 110 to 12 volt sensor may need to be created.

Cut me in when you figger it out and make a zllion pazzuzzas!

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:35 pm

I think we're on different pages...........

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:58 pm

Sorry, hope I didint waste your time.(the most presious thing you have in my opinion.

I will try again manuana to make it time well spent.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:49 pm

no worries, no worries at all........I appreciate that anyone would even care.

I think, though, I'm not elucidating well enough.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:05 am

ygmir, are your grid-tie inverters "sealed" on the panels themselves? Is there no access to the output wiring on the panels themselves? What most of us are saying, is you need to bypass those inverters and run the panels in series or parrallel to a charge controller (if you want batteries) and a separate off-grid inverter. This inverter could feed into the circuit between your grid-tie inverters and the house breaker box. Therefore, you do not use the grid-tie inverters whatsoever when the grid fails.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:12 am

hhmmm.........well, no, they have modular plugs..........so, you're suggesting, that I take the 24V outputs, and connect them, series or parallel (which is best?), to another inverter, to directly create the 2500 watts A/C?
Or, panels, to batteries/charge controller, to inverter?
the issue with batteries, would be, having enough of them to handle that wattage, I'd guess.
I'm then wondering, since they'll be on the roof, can I run both wiring schemes, and switch?
seems it'd be possible.

Do I need batteries in the system, or, can I run panels, to inverter, to house?
I'm guessing, then, the inverter would just react to demand and production of the panels?

Thanks, (assuming I'm understanding you correctly)

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:21 am

That's basically what I'm proposing. If you do not have batteries, then you will be at the mercy of the sun's intensity. If you are not getting juice from the grid, what would you do when the sun goes down?

The charge controller connects between the panels and the batteries and also between the batteries and the load(inverter). It controls battery charging/discharging and protects the panels from the current in the batteries.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:54 am

Possibly a low power, but correct sine wave input to the sensor would work?

And an isolating relay or switch for the grid.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:52 am

Trishntek wrote:That's basically what I'm proposing. If you do not have batteries, then you will be at the mercy of the sun's intensity. If you are not getting juice from the grid, what would you do when the sun goes down?

The charge controller connects between the panels and the batteries and also between the batteries and the load(inverter). It controls battery charging/discharging and protects the panels from the current in the batteries.

yeah, I see that as a possibility.

I only have automotive batteries (although, about 10) that I keep on a shelf, with solar de-sulfaters attached. They are for the various pieces of equipment I have, and extra cars......

Yeah, without batteries, I'd be at the mercy of the sun, and it's intensity.
I also have back up generators.
I'm more thinking long term, as if the grid were to go down for an extended period, and, fuel became scarce.
Even only working during the day, my own "grid" would be nice.
it would keep the fridge and freezer cold IMHO, overnight just not opening them and such.
So, I'd do electric stuff during the day, or, start a genny if necessary.

Gyre:
That is a good idea..........but, sounds beyond my electrical knowledge base, at least, so far.

What I'm trying to achieve, is, getting the panels to directly energize my home/shop, when the grid is down. But, doing so, without spending several thousand bucks for another system to do it, by tricking my system into thinking the grid is "up" and just making power, like it does.

Thanks all.

FIGJAM · Post by **FIGJAM** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:14 am

Sorry.

I ASSumed you had a dedicated battery bank for your solor.

6 months of reserch showed me that the battery bank smooths out the curve between no sun and total sun.

I read somewhere that a car battery is equal to a 50ha battery.

I bought deke 105amp hr. deep cycle agm batteries that were factory seconds (no label) for $140 that listed for $230.

IMHO important to remember that anything that heats with electicity is a controlled short cicuit and sucks a lot of power.

So if your welding or some such, best to crank up a genny rather that burdening the system. Hope I was some help.

Rabbi Dali Rick · Post by **Rabbi Dali Rick** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:48 am

You need the battery bank. To try and run your whole house off direct solar power must have made the salesman cumm in his pants. Not only is it damn near impossible, but prohibitly exspensive. The panels are for charging your bank, only anything else is shear folly. First that 3000 w in edger sounds good until you realize that just running that big ass machine, even with nothing attached will kill your battery in less than 2 hours just with the power it requires. Ideally you want to only produce the electricity where you need it, and only where you need it, if not it's like keeping all the lights in your house on when you are sitting watching tv, that would send you power bill soaring out of control, just like generating power from one loction with the power constantly on, and not "on demand". My invention address this with a replacement for the wall socket unit that has an integrated 400 watt inverter in the outlet with a switch that toggles the outlet back and forth between 12 v and 110, a special plug that that will trip the switch depending on if it's a 12 v appliance or a 110, so you can't make the mistake of mixing up the power. You are only generating power at the use point and only on demand.

You have to bring your consumtiomn load down, that's just the bottom line .

the rebbi

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:00 am

yeah, no electric heating off solar.........or large motors.
I just want to make sure, the fridge, freezer, some lights and tv/radio will work.
I've got 2500 watts of solar panels.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:33 am

We need to know more about how the black box works to trick it.

But a separate system running off the panels will work for certain, with cutoffs provided.

Rabbi Dali Rick · Post by **Rabbi Dali Rick** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:37 am

First change the refridge over to a hybrid elec/propane/12v, change those energy hog lights over to LEDs, the energy from two of those Easters should be enough to light the bulbs for your whole house, if their LEDs. LCD TV that has 30 watt or less draw, and try to make sure any appliance that you buy has a cigarette lighter charger/adapter. Yeah I know it's a very restrictive list, and it means changing out a lot of the stuff you have, but you have to remember, that stuff you trying to hang onto will not serve the functions intended if you have to go "off-grid". That 48" big screen tv just becomes an Art piece paper weight,, that refridge becomes a cooler, and your precious stereo is only playable a couple of hours a day. Don't hold on to the past you have to let that stuff go, or suffer when the time comes to "rely" on your system for all your needs.

Remember the Revolution will not be Televised, your first inkling will be when they knock on your door, and ask if you could please step outside.

the rebbi

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:45 am

gyre wrote:We need to know more about how the black box works to trick it.

But a separate system running off the panels will work for certain, with cutoffs provided.

yeah, and, the supplier says that info is "proprietary", so, it's gonna be hard to figure.

I'm leaning towards the seperate system approach.
I'm going to try to find how to mimich "grid" volatge and frequency, though, to see if a simple back feed from my extra PV system will do the trick.

I'm with ya rebi.........I've done some fair amount of prep and research........
just fine tuning..........

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:07 am

There are ways to find out what we need to know.
I'd start with repair techs.

Possibly the system could be tested with some current limited supplies, as a start.

The competition probably knows these answers already.
That's another source.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:12 am

And for general info, good quality black and white crts are very efficient and use less when dimmed.
About 20-30 watts for a 12" in normal use.
And an efficient source of light too.

An 8" uses less.
I just found another 8" sony.
About as small as I want to use.
And of course I got 12 volt digital tuners.

All emergency info is on tv now, except for the weather band.

Rabbi Dali Rick · Post by **Rabbi Dali Rick** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:14 am

I have found 12v Flouresent bulbs in a standard light screw-base form factor, in other words you can screw this right into a standard lamp. What this does is allow you to use all you existing lamps and lighting stuff in your 12 v system.

I'm using this iPhone for my Internet, smart stupid little fuck keeps highjacking shit and changes it to what it thinks I'm saying, stupid little shit so irritating sometimes. Not to mention the weird formatting it does on long post, stupid little shit! Jobs is sick so the little shithead wanna-he's are in charge and are fucking up everything. The iPad is a mess, there is no common sense stuff in the internal archetcture design, he'll even Blackberry was smart enough to make their pad work in sync like a Transformer robot, where Apple is designing with individual market shares of the products and trying to keep the line between them to keep sales viable. But that is not how the end users life works, and Jobs was always clear on what the end user needed and provided that product, that is until recently, now his great leaps and bounds are neutered by the suits upstairs and bean counters, who figure they can sa
E a
Punt on

the rebbi

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:39 am

Here's a whatif...

You hardwire a small (say, 300 watt) inverter to your solar panel, or to your battery bank charged by the solar. This gives you a high efficiency low consumption 60 hz 110 V available off said hardwired inveter.

Then you have a DPDT sensor switch in line, one of those autodrop systems, like those that start a genny when the power dies, BUT keeps your house power segregated from the power line....

so that when you lose grid, it kills the grid electricity and switches it over to your little 300 watt inverter. Basically putting the inverter on line.

Maybe only to your compensator circuitry, or maybe to the upside line power feed.

That energizes your circuitry with 60 HZ 110. Not enough to power your house, but enough to feed your system the low power 60 HZ 110 it's looking for.

That then tells your solar system to go on line, as the 300 watts are NOT enough to power your whatever. But it has the juice to tell there is power.

When (or if) you get grid power back, your system needs to be reset... prolly manually to bring your emergency system offline, then to bring your shore system on line, but then your grid is up... and your little 300w inverter is idling on your solar (or on your solar charged inverter power deepcycle batt) until it's needed again.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:34 pm

that sounds sort of what I was thinking, BBS....but, had not the knowledge or mental acumen to elucidate as such......

thanks.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:02 pm

Wondering if a controller prohibiting current running back to the 300W inverter would be necessary? It may fool the grid-tie inverters for the short-term, but remember those grid-tie inverters are made to feed excess current back to the source.

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:21 am

ygmir wrote:....but, had not the knowledge or mental acumen...

Not bloody likely, Yg! I can't equate that description with you at all.

Trishntek wrote:Wondering if a controller prohibiting current running back to the 300W inverter would be necessary? It may fool the grid-tie inverters for the short-term, but remember those grid-tie inverters are made to feed excess current back to the source.

That's a good question... I'd kinda sorta have to look at a schematic of both to see how the 2 circuitswere hardwired and would intercouple. (Sounds like electric sex!!) Seriously, tho, I' wondering (on the back end) if it would react like a Honda EU Series inverter or if it would risk frying out the inverter... damn.

Yeah... need schematics. It would either be a non-issue, or you would have this beautiful square smoke ring... I know with the hondas they're designed to do just that, they detect present AC sine wave to determine phase... and sync up themselves... and push back to their own circuitry. It's been so long since either physics or HS Electronics I can't remember the ins and outs...

Of course, one could always gut an EU with a bad motor, pull the inverter circuitry and feed it with the output of the solar cells... then if it did get the pulse from the solar, you know it would handle it OK.