New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

[remi]

The only real option BM has now is to ship all 50,000 tickets to me, and let me sell them in whichever fassion I see fit.

[capjbadger]

Each ticket has to be assigned a name when purchasing (like an airline ticket). Only one ticket per name, 4 per named credit card. Non-transferrable except with letter/photocopy of ID method already in place. Tickets have name printed on them. Must show ID with ticket at gate. Quick DB check won't allow a second ticket to be purchased under the same name. Can't make up names because without ID they're worthless. If it doesn't match & you have no transfer letter w/id of the person who bought the ticket, you're staying in lovely Gerlach. Fuck 'yer day, scalpers!

Oh... and with only one ticketed event per year, write a program (take like a few days tops) to do your own ticketing, have everything in house, and clear an easy extra hundred grand a year in fees. 50k tix x $5 fee = $250k - $100k admin = $150k profit.

Now, if BMOrg is truly concerned about sscalping, that's your solution. Just sayin' though that a sold ticket is a sold ticket & BMOrg makes the same whether it's sold to a scalper or not. So this type of thing could actually stand to hurt them.

No, I'm a newb and I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about as far as how this all applies to BM - I just want a ticket. I'm just pointing out unfortunate human nature in general and saying that a simple-to-implement solution is at hand (in fact, many are).

For the last time, scalping is NOT the issue here, nor is it why the lottery was put in place.

-Badger

[Nipple]

InTicketing can barely keep up with first come first serve... they're going to control tickets that are non-transferable?

Yikes!

[bradtem]

Scalping is an odd bird to figure out. Prior to 2011, there was not really any reason to scalp BM tickets because people could buy from the org. Profit would be minimal and only if you bought tier 1 and waited a long time. Perhaps there were people scalping after it was announced that gate sales would not be done, or people who drove up looking for a ticket after gate sales ended (Thursday night most years) but it was pretty minimal.

Last year, scalping was also not that big a deal because people didn't know it would sell out. As such, only people who happened to have tickets or who bought them from burners selling at face value could scalp. It took place but only to a minor extent.

In 2012 we have an event that almost surely will sell out, and for which the going price post sell-out will be quite high, with a margin of $200 or more per ticket, which is pretty sweet. Scalpers identify events that will sell out and have folks with good discretionary income who really, really want to go. Some will identify BM as a good event to scalp, but we don't know how many.

The lottery does effect scalping in that it generates a class of people who really, really want to go (so much so that they planned all year) who lost the lottery and are ticketless. These will add to the last minute wealthier folks. Scalpers can enter the lottery, but if they are serious about it, they already have mechanisms in place to make lots of entries, they already work to defeat concert systems that try to stop people from ordering more than their limit.

Since few knew it would sell out in 2011, one might assume the event sells out handily even without scalpers. However, scalpers will make the event sell out faster. Indeed, every ticket a scalper gets their hands on in the lottery equals one desperate burner who doesn't get one and seeks out the scalper. This is a common scalper trick of course -- they even manage to make some events sell out (to scalpers) which would not sell out ordinarily. This allows them to create an illusion of scarcity and jack up the price, even if it means not selling some of their tickets. (Such tickets can often be found for sale cheap after concerts have started.)

The concert/sports tolerance for scalpers has always been surprising to me. Why do they let the scalpers take so much of the money? It's been argued by some that bands have decided they don't want to be seen as charging fans $1,000 for tickets and want to appear more egalitarian. They let the scalper have the money while providing the safety valve. With scalpers, no event is truly sold out if you are desperate enough to go, and that's not a bad thing. I have even seen it suggested that some venues work with scalpers -- getting more of the money for the event, giving the scalpers a margin and low risk, and letting the scalpers be the bad guy while the band or concert hall would never be so nasty as to charge true fans crazy prices.

[Ranger Ryan]

Each ticket has to be assigned a name when purchasing (like an airline ticket). Only one ticket per name, 4 per named credit card. Non-transferrable except with letter/photocopy of ID method already in place. Tickets have name printed on them. Must show ID with ticket at gate. Quick DB check won't allow a second ticket to be purchased under the same name. Can't make up names because without ID they're worthless. If it doesn't match & you have no transfer letter w/id of the person who bought the ticket, you're staying in lovely Gerlach. Fuck 'yer day, scalpers!

Oh... and with only one ticketed event per year, write a program (take like a few days tops) to do your own ticketing, have everything in house, and clear an easy extra hundred grand a year in fees. 50k tix x $5 fee = $250k - $100k admin = $150k profit.

Now, if BMOrg is truly concerned about sscalping, that's your solution. Just sayin' though that a sold ticket is a sold ticket & BMOrg makes the same whether it's sold to a scalper or not. So this type of thing could actually stand to hurt them.

No, I'm a newb and I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about as far as how this all applies to BM - I just want a ticket. I'm just pointing out unfortunate human nature in general and saying that a simple-to-implement solution is at hand (in fact, many are).

For the last time, scalping is NOT the issue here, nor is it why the lottery was put in place.

-Badger

Regardless if the issue was ever scalping or not--- if the lottery is implemented as was outlined in JRS-- it will be a big issue NOW.

[capjbadger]

Regardless if the issue was ever scalping or not--- if the lottery is implemented as was outlined in JRS-- it will be a big issue NOW.

How do you figure? The scalpers use extra people to enter the tier queues to grab tickets to resell in the old system. How is that any different than what they would do now?

-Badger

[cariannshimsham]

My biggest concern about the lottery is how it will affect the art installations, theme camps and mutant vehicles, which to me are the heart of the event. If people don't know until who knows when that they have a ticket or not, how can they plan art?

Also are there going to be grants this year for art installations? How can you give a grant to someone who may or may not get a ticket?

I've decided not to go this year, I think I'll watch the whole thing blow up from afar...

[theCryptofishist]

Also are there going to be grants this year for art installations? How can you give a grant to someone who may or may not get a ticket?

Art grants come with tickets and early entry passes, so that's not an issue. I'm less sure about placed but not funded art.

[Rice]

My biggest concern about the lottery is how it will affect the art installations, theme camps and mutant vehicles, which to me are the heart of the event. If people don't know until who knows when that they have a ticket or not, how can they plan art?

Also are there going to be grants this year for art installations? How can you give a grant to someone who may or may not get a ticket?

I've decided not to go this year, I think I'll watch the whole thing blow up from afar...

Would it not be easier to wait until the details have been released? The description in JRS was a bit brief.

I am not saying your concerns are not valid, it is just that at this moment who knows if there are going to be issues getting tickets?? Yes, the tickets sold out last year (due to a growth restriction on the BLM temporary permit). There is nothing to say that this will occur again.


Once the details have been released, please feel free to panic all you like. (Or for that matter, continue as you are)

In the end, things will burn - people will have fun, it will be hot, it will be dark, there will be sun. After all, it is just camping in the desert.

Rice

[portaplaya]

If it weren't for the lottery system, would everyone just wait and buy their tickets whenever? We saw how that system worked last year: it left perhaps 2,000-3,000 people worldwide unable to attend the event

I know that many of those people would not wait this year. In fact, not buying tickets on the first day is playing a huge risk of not getting tickets. 27,000 tickets sold in 24 hrs last year. Certainly more would go this year.

I think that the lottery does five things.
[*]It reminds lazy asses that they need to get tickets sooner, not later.
[*]It makes sure that if the entire spread of tickets would otherwise sells out in one day, that the people that all got online that day get a fair shake at getting a ticket.
[*]It guarantees that server demand will not be a factor in determining who gets a ticket.
[*]It makes sure that should there be a lot of scalpers, at least everyone that wants a ticket is competing against them. Otherwise only scalpers and "hour-one" buyers are going to end up with the tickets.
[*]It allows for a verification system that someone in the lottery is really a person. And really buying a ticket for themselves and their family. Verification takes time and cannot be appealed if denied during the one-day-sale.

I see a lot of outrage and claims that a lottery is not needed to fix server demand; not needed to fix scalpers; not needed to verify that people are buying the tickets.
But what system addresses all of the above problems in one system? Because I don't think that first-come; first-serve or non-transferable tickets solve the biggest threat looming: selling out on day-one.

[TinkerMom]

[*]It reminds lazy asses that they need to get tickets sooner, not later.

OK, that stung!!!

I am NOT by any means lazy!! I am a single hard working mother!!!
I don't have any credit cards, nor do I have extra money hanging out any where. I have to wait untill I do my
taxes in Feb. to get my ticket, just as usual. Lottery or not. I just hope there is a registration time during
the time when I do have cash in hand.....

I do understand the ones who do procrastinate and wait too long, and yes they are doofs.

[portaplaya]

"lazy asses" was not meant to be an indictment against anyone that does not buy tickets the first day. It was a riff off of the more common "procrastinators" and meant to inject humor into the rather dry and talky post.

[Sham]

You want to inject humor, try THIS:

[portaplaya]

That looks more like lots of cocaine.

[TinkerMom]

I do agree with you PortaPlaya.

I appologize. It has been an 18 hr work day for me.

I had a ride share with me last year. She called to tell me she had just received her ticket. And
that was 3 weeks before we left.
I was flabergasted. My word!!!
And was totally unprepared!!!
No more ride shares for me!!

I didn't get in on the first day of sales, but I did get in on it the next day.

Shambala, that's great!!

[Dapple]

I registered recently to ask some questions about our camper & otherwise inform myself better as we consider & prepare for our virgin year...

but all this ticket discussion has been really illuminating!

Stress seems to bring out interesting sides and social strata...

Although "participating" obviously has some subjective edges to it, there are clearly some well-felt divisions about the value of "spectators" (as well as hippies, shirtcockers, last-minute ticket purchasers, anyone in street clothes, RV's, and so on, depending on who you listen to...)

It's pretty obvious to me that there wouldn't BE an event without installations & theme camps, and it's sad to see anyone, even if misguided, discouraged from investing their time & energy -- if tickets have to be "deserved" (they don't, in a lottery, but there seems some protest that they SHOULD) then it seems that those participants have a righteous claim -

As to those who have been going FOREVER and therefore have more right than those who have NEVER been...well, you could make that case backwards, just as easily, couldn't you?

The things I am left wondering personally (besides "where does the part about not being judged come in, again?") would be these: how would a very low-key participant (no them camp, no installation) be sure a lottery-won ticket did not prevent a larger artist from attending, and -- the tickets are for the week, right? - so since we would be able to attend only on the weekend - wouldn't our tickets also mean someone who COULD have attended all week lost the chance?

These are only considerations in a sellout, of course. Things I think about.

Interesting to read all the sociology, though. Thanks.

[cariannshimsham]

My biggest concern about the lottery is how it will affect the art installations, theme camps and mutant vehicles, which to me are the heart of the event. If people don't know until who knows when that they have a ticket or not, how can they plan art?

Also are there going to be grants this year for art installations? How can you give a grant to someone who may or may not get a ticket?

I've decided not to go this year, I think I'll watch the whole thing blow up from afar...

Would it not be easier to wait until the details have been released? The description in JRS was a bit brief.

I am not saying your concerns are not valid, it is just that at this moment who knows if there are going to be issues getting tickets?? Yes, the tickets sold out last year (due to a growth restriction on the BLM temporary permit). There is nothing to say that this will occur again.


Once the details have been released, please feel free to panic all you like. (Or for that matter, continue as you are)

In the end, things will burn - people will have fun, it will be hot, it will be dark, there will be sun. After all, it is just camping in the desert.

Rice

There will be issues getting tickets...all ears are turned towards the rails, and a big ol' train is a comin'...you can count on that...

[Paloma8]

>>>>>>Would it not be easier to wait until the details have been released? The description in JRS was a bit brief.

I am not saying your concerns are not valid, it is just that at this moment who knows if there are going to be issues getting tickets?? Yes, the tickets sold out last year (due to a growth restriction on the BLM temporary permit). There is nothing to say that this will occur again.


Once the details have been released, please feel free to panic all you like. (Or for that matter, continue as you are)

=-----After all, it is just camping in the desert.?????>>>>>>>>>>


I cannot believe the whole 'new' system hasn't been thought out -- why would they release such sketchy details? There's SO much information lacking... days have gone by - could they NOT update and give some answers.
Until they can tell us if BLM gave them more "room"
Or what the details are ie how to register, when to register, is there just a 2-week period? can we re-register if we miss WINNING a ticket on our tier? I think it's just FINE that people post their frustration and fears here -- so BMORG can freaking register that that was very poorly communicated.

And no Rice - no, this is not just camping in the desert. I can do that anytime with a few hours planning..... this is a gigantic undertaking by THOUSANDS of people that bring to the table their art, creativity, camps, vehicles, travel from different countries or across the US, meet with dozens or hundreds of fellow campers and it takes planning and budgeting.

I like the NetFlix comparison....... too little info and too big a plan = people just saying no thanks.

I am a planner. I have always bought my tickets early. Always. Never had to buy a scalped ticket; don't know anyone who has bought a scalped ticket either. If I'm not going to know until March that my tier didn't yield me a WINNING TICKET -- and I have to re-register (if that's possible) and hope for another few months I'll get on a higher tier... then I have no time really to get projects done and working on a big theme camp is O U T. They don't come together in 3-5 months. I'm not putting time and $$ into a project that may sit in my garage until next year.

If they want to drop a BOMB on the community - the least they could do is put their pointy heads together and release MORE DETAILS so we don't have to keep guessing. Perhaps the fallout from people saying F**K IT -- will free up some room -- HEY maybe that's the plan... because I really don't see that BMORG is losing sleep over poor us and the scalped tickets we make a decision to buy.

[theCryptofishist]

Okay. Um. Theme camp. Yeah...

Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I'm sheltered or something. But every year I've been involved in my theme camp(s) we have had people who didn't make it. Economics weren't right. Other duties. Whatever. You know what, these people still contributed. Maybe they didn't make and haul to the desert huge pieces of infrastructure, but they helped think things through, they found important details, they helped build the cohesion of the core (by which I mean people who regularly contributed to our on-line discussions), they helped in "branding" on this board. Yes we missed them when they couldn't make it. Yes, adjustments had to be made...

but...

you know...

This is burningman. We cope. We improvise. We rise above the conditions and limitations that the desert throws at us. We still build kick-ass theme camps.

Don't we?

[Mamachicken32]

Why make faithful, got it together people be punished for scalpers...

Why not just do non transferable tickets


The idea is cool in regards to not knowing who is going but this is NOT the way to do it. How can theme camps and art carts and DJ's that come in groups and make things happen... How can a camp go if the guy who owns xyz can't go but the guy who brings abc can???

I feel the solution is EASY.. MAKE THE TICKETS NON TRANSFERABLE... MAKE THE NAME ON THE TICKET A MUST IN MATCHING AN ID. If someone can't go, you can send the ticket back and be refunded for the price paid, and the next person in line gets the available ticket..

They do this overseas... why wouldn't that be a better concept???

This barely seems popular thus far to anyone anywhere based off the posts I been reading. Therefore, why not rethink how to do this and or ask the LARGE burning community ideas... We are all family right?

Simple.. I buy a ticket, my name is on it, it has to match my ticket when I get to the gate or I am BEAT. If I can't go... two choices here... One, return the ticket and the ticket will be refunded and go back in the pool for someone else to buy... Or you lose your money... Make it happen people...

[gyre]

Just ban djs and amplified music.


That will help solve the population issue.

[Mamachicken32]

The idea is cool in regards to not knowing who is going but this is NOT the way to do it. How can theme camps and art carts and DJ's that come in groups and make things happen... How can a camp go if the guy who owns xyz can't go but the guy who brings abc can???

I feel the solution is EASY.. MAKE THE TICKETS NON TRANSFERABLE... MAKE THE NAME ON THE TICKET A MUST IN MATCHING AN ID. If someone can't go, you can send the ticket back and be refunded for the price paid, and the next person in line gets the available ticket..

They do this overseas... why wouldn't that be a better concept???

OCCUPY BURNINGMAN

[Mamachicken32]

Or, let Skrillex spin at Burningman... I for one would protest lol

[Rice]

The idea is cool in regards to not knowing who is going but this is NOT the way to do it. How can theme camps and art carts and DJ's that come in groups and make things happen... How can a camp go if the guy who owns xyz can't go but the guy who brings abc can???

I feel the solution is EASY.. MAKE THE TICKETS NON TRANSFERABLE... MAKE THE NAME ON THE TICKET A MUST IN MATCHING AN ID. If someone can't go, you can send the ticket back and be refunded for the price paid, and the next person in line gets the available ticket..

They do this overseas... why wouldn't that be a better concept???

OCCUPY BURNINGMAN

If gate needed to compare each ticket to photo ID it would double the time it takes to get through the gate.

Trespassing on federal land would result in a Federal Trespassing ticket which would get one a federal arrest warrant if not paid. - just sayin


Once again, for the 40th time today:

We do not know how the ticket lottery is going to work, so why panic??

Rice

[capjbadger]

Why make faithful, got it together people be punished for scalpers...

Why not just do non transferable tickets?

Because this is NOT about scapling. This is a about first day server overloading since InTicketing can't get their shit together. Got it?
Christ...

-Badger

[Canoe]

One of the critisisms of Burning Man is that the "expiremental community" is a failed experiment because it encourages people to gift whatever they can to benefit each other- thus the gift economy. A gift economy, according to the critics, could never exist because of SCARCITY...

Anthropology: Cargo & Potlatch. Successful.

[gyre]

[gyre]

[gyre]

[Bhavantu]

I think this is a really sad decision. Tickets did not sell out last year till July I am told. Most people who participate book their tickets much earlier.

I live in London and we were going to come to Burning Man to get married next year. Our flights are booked and the deposit on the RV has been paid.

As we now can't be sure we'll get a ticket we are having to look at other plans.

If you are local to they bay area getting to Burning Man is a huge organisational challenge. If you travel from abroad as many do, there are many more logistical challenges such as needing to book an RV as early as possible.

For large groups of people this makes coming to Burning Man almost impossible.

A better system would be to keep tiered tickets and spend on IT resources for ticket sales.