Digital Apex

[lemur]

for the purposes of this discussion, lets presume that "art" in the context of burning man refers to the camps/sculptures/mutantvehicles/installations and "not art" refers to the DJ's and music.

Not an assumption I'm willing to make! Whether it's Jazz Camp or Apex, music is art.

go get a burning man art grant for it then.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

go get a burning man art grant for it then.

[DrYes]

for the purposes of this discussion, lets presume that "art" in the context of burning man refers to the camps/sculptures/mutantvehicles/installations and "not art" refers to the DJ's and music.

Not an assumption I'm willing to make! Whether it's Jazz Camp or Apex, music is art.

go get a burning man art grant for it then.

BMORG doesn't define what art is.

BMORG defines what grants they'll give to particular kinds of art, as do other granting organizations. In BMORGs case, they choose not to grant to music-based art installations as I understand it. I think it's a poor decision, as BM could encourage more types of musical art by providing funding for a variety of types of music, vs. relying on whatever is most popular to effectively self-fund and organize (ie EDM).

Burning Man also officially places theme camps, and officially places the sound camps. If you want to argue over the BMORGs intentions regarding sound camps being an integral part of Burning Man, you're tilting against windmills. You can argue they should change their policy, but theme camps are as much a part of Burning Man as any art installation, and sound camps are just as much a valid theme camp as any other from the POV of the BMORG, based on their policies.

[Asquared]

for the purposes of this discussion, lets presume that "art" in the context of burning man refers to the camps/sculptures/mutantvehicles/installations and "not art" refers to the DJ's and music.

Not an assumption I'm willing to make! Whether it's Jazz Camp or Apex, music is art.

LIKE!

[knowmad]

Following Lemur's piss poor logic;
There are no Art Grants given for Music. therefore Music is not Art.
There are no Art Grants given for Mutant Vehicles. Therefore Mutant Vehicles are not Art.

and it brings to mind some words of wisdom
"I may not know art, but I know what I hate. And I don't hate this." ~Homer Simpson
you might not be an art critic, or very good a syllogistics but we know you hate EDM. We just don't give a shit.

[Simon of the Playa]

thats a complete red herring, and it's not about which art is better than others, or what is art.

thats a never-ending argument.



it's about the Last Bastion of Non-Commercialized Turf that Red Bullshit and Others havent been able to put their corporate fucking brand on.

it's about NOT having guerilla product placement at the "Koolest Kamp mit der Koolest DJ's" and in a not so subtle way glom onto the "burning man" phenomena and somehow use it to make money.


it's about pissing on the org while drinking their beer.

and there you have it.

[lemur]

lulz.


y'all run with that 'what is art' stuff (good luck solving that one !)

but thats sort of off topic.

the question was basically..why is there so much hating on the dance camps/patrons of such camps


some folks feel that burning man is more of an art event than a music event, we can play the pedantic semantic game all day long on whether or not we consider if music is 'art' in the context of an 'art event' , but theres clearly a difference between a music event and an art event (if you arent being a pedantic jackass, that is).

for the purposes of this discussion, lets presume that "art" in the context of burning man refers to the camps/sculptures/mutantvehicles/installations and "not art" refers to the DJ's and music.

when someone talks about camps commodifying and fuckin up the burning man world and changing it with dance clubs... they arent making some bigass proclamation that yer favorite jams arent 'artistic' or 'art' ...... but, within the context of the event burning man,.. music is (lets appeal to the hipsters) a subgenre of art.. a subgenre which is is something that is less important (in some nebulous way) to the organizers (as it is a kind of art ineligible for grants) who do not really go out of their way to support it.

...im guessing theres a reason why they do not go out of their way to support or throw moneys at the music camps...


and it has nothing to do with music being art or not art.

[H.G.Crosby]

.

[stew]

BMORG defines what grants they'll give to particular kinds of art, as do other granting organizations. In BMORGs case, they choose not to grant to music-based art installations as I understand it. I think it's a poor decision, as BM could encourage more types of musical art by providing funding for a variety of types of music, vs. relying on whatever is most popular to effectively self-fund and organize (ie EDM).

I have organized club events and concerts and can only say: it doesn't take a lot of money to make great music. However, it takes a lot of money to make loud music.
Besides, is anyone really complaining about a lack of music at the burn? Oh, I understand, there is enough music, but just not the kind of music you like. Then by all means, please bring some of that music, I'll swing by and listen and if I like it, I'll dance at your camp for a while.

I would love to hear contemporary classical music on the playa. But I really doubt that it would magically spring into existence if only the BMORG gave out a grant for it.

[lemur]

BURNING MAN 2013:

GO BIG

[stew]

four to the floor!

[Simon of the Playa]

four to the floor!

where the fuck did you get that picture of me?




death to dubstep.

[gaminwench]

Stew:

I have heard/participated with live contemporary classical music every year on the playa.
There's a great deal of live music out there, but the sound systems in those camps aren't as massive as the big EDM systems.
You have to find the live music. (I know of at least 15 camps that will have acoustic pianos, backlines, ...)

The EDM is with you all of the time, everywhere;
There are DJ camps that play other genres, they're just not as loud.

IMHO, it isn't about whether it's 'art'; it's about the philosophy.
The
"I want them to hear my set all over the city"
vs
"I want folks to find us, listen, interact and participate"

and the debate continues...

Simon, you look GREAT with a cowbell!

[DrewDubious]

Stew:

I have heard/participated with live contemporary classical music every year on the playa.
There's a great deal of live music out there, but the sound systems in those camps aren't as massive as the big EDM systems.
You have to find the live music. (I know of at least 15 camps that will have acoustic pianos, backlines, ...)

The EDM is with you all of the time, everywhere;
There are DJ camps that play other genres, they're just not as loud.

IMHO, it isn't about whether it's 'art'; it's about the philosophy.
The
"I want them to hear my set all over the city"
vs
"I want folks to find us, listen, interact and participate"

and the debate continues...

Simon, you look GREAT with a cowbell!

EXCUSE ME! Classical music is -obviously- art. We are here to bag on ELECTRONIC MUSIC and more specific the people who enjoy it!

[gaminwench]

I was just letting Stew know that he can, in fact, find what he is wanting ... if he looks for it.

[The Rod]

What a bunch of fucking whiny babies.

And I'm the usually one of the ones who takes to the message boards strictly to gripe and bitch about what I don't like about burning man. Stupid fucking ticket policy, stupid fucking permits, foot fungus, I hate it all and and I like to bitch it all.

But Jesus. Goddamned. Christ. You don't like the untz? You don't like the the sound camps? Think a group of heady bros and their earth mamma sparkle bitches from Santa Cruz with enough money to burn in a giant gazillion watt coliseum DJ booth are going to commodify and ruin YOUR burn?

You want to rock out to something other than dubstep, or techno-deep-trance-tribal-house? Pony up and bring your sound camp out. Or don't.

'They' have just as much right to go to Black Rock City and do their thing as mush as you and I whether you asshats like it or not.

And I fucking love them for it. I dig a huge dance party. When I get down at Burning Man its some of my freest time on the planet.

I think that lemur doesn't know how to dance and he's just jealous.

As for the rest of the shitbricks, I see people get way too emotionally attached to what they think something should be (like quiet temple burns... I never agreed to that shit). Then they see someone or something that they can project their own personal bullshit all over (I do it all the fucking time) and blame someone else for ruining their own burn when the only person who can ruin your burn is you.

While the bitter old bastards are huddled up in center camp drinking coffee and bitching about how its too loud the rest of the city is getting down. I think it's pretty clear who's doing it right. And sure.. I can kind of, almost, just a tiny little bit see it from the anti-commodification perspective, where we have production companies hoping to elevate themselves and their buddies through their exploits at Burning Man, but come on, that kind of shit is happening everywhere at The Thing. Burning Man is central for a lot of people doing a lot of networking. A SHITLOAD of money is made off of the event, because of the event and from connections made at the event. The EDM bunch just makes a shit ton of noise doing their thing, so its easy for a curmudgeon to notice and despise.

Fuck em. The party is here and its a dance party.

And in the words of Paul Stanley:

Don't let 'em tell you that there's too much noise
They're too old to really understand
You'll still get rowdy with the girls and boys
'Cause it's time for you to take a stand, yeah, yeah

[FIGJAM]

Well, you're wrong!!!

We are not huddled at center camp!!!

We're huddled at the fucking meet and greet!!!!!!!!

So there!

[The Rod]

Oh. Sorry.

I stand corrected.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

i rest my case.


"bigger is not better, better is better."


and whenever people don't like other's opinions on THEIR sacred cow, the first thing they do is call the critics names...


like "whiny fucking babies"


you lost right there, Monsieur Le French.


now stfu while i go get some freedom fries.

[gaminwench]

Did I say it ruined my burn?

"shit ton of noise".
your quote.
That is what the ends of the city sound like from everywhere else.


I like RH,
LOUD, deep playa, gotta find it, decent electrowhatever.
I dance.

bitter old burners (bastards, in your words) wouldn't be caught dead in center camp.

[stew]

[quote="gaminwench"]I was just letting Stew know that he can, in fact, find what he is wanting ... if he looks for it. [/quote]
I know it's there, I just didn't run into it yet. Maybe I should have spent less time at Opulent Temple

I found some of the 15 pianos - if you saw a guy in a white top hat playing a drunk version of "La fille aux cheveux de lin", that may have been me.

[DrewDubious]

i rest my case.

[Simon of the Playa]

you know, this thread was sleeping...dormant until today.




what it really is about is BALANCE



this push back is no surprise, they were warned.


now everybody just sit down, shut up and pass the kool-aid...

[media]

[lemur]

IMHO, it isn't about whether it's 'art'; it's about the philosophy.
The
"I want them to hear my set all over the city"
vs
"I want folks to find us, listen, interact and participate"

and i think really this goes to the heart of the concern some people may have with the original posters ideas about this whole Digital Apex thing... music is certainly welcome at burning man! ..im guessing at least a few people know that i spend much of my burn at a certain music camp... but theres a difference between the small live music camps you mentioned finding in the city and the other ones which you can easily find without trying ...some want to "go big"

in terms of the world of some of the larger dance camps, which digital apex seems to aspire to be, going big can be anything from going real loud to going big with big name djs/production/branded audio setups that are well known and mentioned to get folks out to their camp..

there seems to be a bit of a cultural difference between the djs/producers of the dance camps and the small live music joints.

going big in the world of the EDM/dj/producer culture, seems to me, from my outsider perspective.. from what ive seen of those involved in burning man over the years, can end up being very close to some of the things we /dont/ want on the playa... i.e. salespeople, producers looking to cash in, to sell a brand, ..a product.. or to leech off of burning man to lift the profile of someone/some group/producer for profit outside of burning man... to get as many people as possible at a set, no matter what their values or level of participation ...(perhaps not true for /all/ of these groups.. but certainly has occured with some)


going big in the world of live music culture at burning man seems to be... 'we upgraded from 25 foot dome to a 35 foot dome.. and we actually have a house band for every night of the week this year' ...im not sure if ive seen any notable examples of people trying to use the event for benefit of future profit while touring/gigging like ive seen of some of the large scale sound camp outfits.




its not really about ruining 'my burn' ...its a cultural problem for those who have built a community around the event ...

its not even about dancing.


its not even about profit.



its about trying to keep the cultural impact of these operations to a minimum.. some of these GO BIG operations have the potential for a very large cultural impact.. merely by publishing setlists, for example.



if these "go big" people arent careful they could easily (and some say they already have) cause a dramatic shift in terms of what burning man /is/ to the invested hardcore attendees.., to the legal people and those who are future/new customers of burning man...

it rarely seems, judging by the original poster who wants to "go big" (along with so many other huge dance camps), that there is any concern about what the possible impact of going big may be......... whether or not they have a "right" to do what they do is neither here or there..... whether or not they decide if theyll do what they want to do or not matters, perhaps now.. and surely eventually.

one neednt 'go big' to make burning man awesome.... and maybe, perhaps, sometimes, /not/ going big will keep burning man awesome

[Turtleburp]

you know, this thread was sleeping...dormant until today.




what it really is about is BALANCE



this push back is no surprise, they were warned.


now everybody just sit down, shut up and pass the kool-aid...

Are you applying to be a moderator

A sock had best get their fucking socky ass up here right now and redress THIS imbalance

[DrewDubious]

paranoia abounds!

[Simon of the Playa]

Are you applying to be a moderator

oh hell no, have you ever seen the sign that says "please do not disturb any further"?




having to herd the cats in this electronic kitty litter box would push me right over the edge.




but to answer your question, i was being gracious, and attempting to live and let live, however, some feel the need to taunt the sasquatch with fresh meat.

this recent flare up is not because i wanted it to, and i fired plenty of warning shots, but i will stand my ground if pushed, like that goat, that kicked some motorcyclist ass on the youtube.

i have the right to my opinion, they have the right to do their theme camp as they want to within the parameters of the rules of burning man.

i wish them luck, and i think their line-up is pretty amazing, you know i love the beats and beats and beats.

however

i do not love the business behind it, and the need to gather huge amounts of money to "pamper" the talent as mr Sexxxy was quoted as saying.

i do not love the shit show and the sharks that have come out of the woodwork to suckle on the EDM nipple and who think they can be coy or play dumb when they attempt to monetize the experience by rubbing the "cool factor" all over themselves, hoping some will stick.....Madison Avenue has discovered us, and our "wild and crazy" event now sells product, by subtle innuendo.

and so, i ask for balance.....respect for this hallowed dust....it is the last venue / arena that they havent slapped their name on or bit mapped their logo onto, lets keep it that way, please.









because g*d help them if there is product placement, and trust me, i'll know.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

shut up Chewie...


and go to sleep already for christ sake...

[Asquared]

i.e. salespeople, producers looking to cash in, to sell a brand, ..a product.. or to leech off of burning man to lift the profile of someone/some group/producer for profit outside of burning man...

can you elaborate on this? how has this happened in the past? and how is digital apex doing it now? (i don't know the answer, i am legitimately asking).

every dj (big or otherwise) that i follow has expressed genuine gratitude to be able to play in the desert, to *give* their time and talent to us. each (that i follow, mind you) seems to have this sense that their set is their gift to the playa. many of them seem truly humbled to have the opportunity.

see why i'm confused?

AND...how is what you said above different for the photographer doing the naked shoot? why not outrage over that (he is LITERALLY selling a product)!?

[theCryptofishist]

AND...how is what you said above different for the photographer doing the naked shoot? why not outrage over that (he is LITERALLY selling a product)!?

In my case, at least it's something marginally original, and it won't annoy me directly, and I view it as hopeless anyway, because there's an llc grant in there. Perhaps not the best reasons, but how many battles can you fight in your lifetime?