ePlaya Fitness Club

[lucky420]

Dear FossaFerox,

Please move to Reno and be my trainer

[tatonka]

Yeah, you're really fortunate tatonka, and while I don't doubt any of what you're saying, you have to realize it's unusual. Glad things worked out for your buddy.

It runs in my family , my aunt is tall and skinny her whole life , she's 72 and still thin and eats whatever she wants , also my son is the same he is 6'1" and 175lbs , and can devore way more than me.

[Elliot]

Now I'm REALLY glad we have this thread! FossaFerox for Emperor!

I'm doing well with the excess fat, but I do have lower back trouble. My doctor has me doing exercises she calls Abdominal Hollowing -- which sounds like the Vacuum Exercises mentioned on Wikipedia about the TVA. Similar?

[FossaFerox]

Very, yes. They're a good way to start. Once you've learned basic activation though it's important to eventually move on, usually to some combination of dead bug variants or, if you have a partner, the "Don't Let Me Move You" series. Both focus on isometric contraction (clenching a muscle without moving) to resist a force and teach you to use the TVA with greater force and as part of functional motor patterns (ones that you'll actually use to resist the stresses put on your back).

In a few minutes of Googling this is so far my favorite dead bug video.
Personally when I start clients off with this I take a long, relatively heavy resistance band and thread it around something above/behind their head, about an arms length off the ground. They pull on this with both hands, keeping their arms in the stationary straight up and down position. This makes activation a little easier and lets you engage your abs slightly to keep the position stable as you learn. If you're at home without elastic tubing, thread a towel around the leg of a heavy desk/table and use that. One thing he didn't talk much about in the video is how important it is to keep the resting leg from moving. If you don't have a trainer spotting you, pretend the top of your knee is a gun sight. Keep it lined up with a point on the wall/ceiling to make sure you aren't rolling your hips out or compensating by bringing the knee in. Again, the leg movement isn't the exercise. The exercise is keeping your core stable (spine and pelvis stationary) WHILE moving the leg.

Don't Let Me Move You is a similar exercise done with a partner. I can't find any good resources online that document it. For this one you will lie on your back, feet on the floor a comfortable distance from your butt, but fairly close to it, with your feet hip-width apart. Extend your arms straight up to the ceiling, hands together. Your partner will try to twist and bend your core while you try to remain stationary (hence the name). Make sure they do this gradually at first, and never violently. Their goal is to challenge you, not to push you to a point where they hurt you. It is not a contest. THEY SHOULD LET YOU WIN.

They should put one hand on your hands and one hand on one of your knees for most of this. There are 9 ways I apply force with my clients. Pushing on each knee straight across while applying opposite force to the hands (4 movements), using one arm to brace across both knees (pushing them towards their feet) while pushing their arms towards their head (1 motion), and finally pushing diagonally apart, mixing the first four with the "outward" element of the second one (4 additional movements). If you want me to elaborate on this, let me know.

Dead bugs I'll do 8-20 repetitions on each side depending on where they're at and how hard the rest of their program is that day. I can give you easier and harder progressions if necessary. Always do 3-4 sets.

For DLMMY I go through the full series of 9 movements one after the other (giving them a chance to breathe briefly between each run through) 4-8 times (and with different amounts of force), again, 3-4 sets.

[Elliot]

Yep. It even says "Dead Bug" on the instruction sheets the therapist gave me. I admit I have not been doing it regularly lately -- I went from fainting with pain in the doctor's waiting room to getting around sort'a OK, then failed to maintain the routine. Now I have fresh inspiration!

I don't have an exercise partner -- (dang, another reason to find a sweetheart!) -- but I can confirm the solo exercises are helpful.

For most immediate relief, I use half of what they call Supine Pelvic Tilt -- essentially pressing the lower back against the floor.

Is there any merit to the old twisting at the waist while holding a broom stick across my shoulders?

[Patsh]

Sounds like the lumbar roll, which works wonders for me (most of the time) to relieve the lower back.

[FossaFerox]

Yes to both. One of the biggest mistakes people make when they encounter low back pain is being overly protective. Again, our bodies did not used to exist in a world where we could lie essentially immobile for weeks on end. Movement is actually part of the recovery process for soft tissue. Part of Davis' law basically states that minor directional stresses are essential for the healing tissue to form properly. Otherwise the collagen fibers lack the proper directional micro-structure and the new tissue will be stiffer and weaker while existing healthy tissue ALSO degrades from extended periods of non-use.

However, be cautious and sensible. Overdoing it and aggravating an injury or reinjuring it are both just silly. Listen to your doctor/physical therapist, or failing that, listen to your body. Pain means something.

Oh, and supine pelvic tilt is one of my regressions of the dead bug. I use it to teach my clients to focus and control the position of their lumbar spine and pelvis with smaller loads before moving on to the dead bug variations. Dead bugs rock. Most of my clients do some version of a dead bug, even my young performance athletes. A strong core is the foundation of a strong body, and dead bugs can be progressed to the point where they'll kick anyone's butt.

[tatonka]

I hurt my lower back in a boxing match years ago , I found squatting like the orientals do to really help ,and toe touching. Just streaching out those muscles
have helped me alot.

[FossaFerox]

Most lower back injuries aren't actually to muscle, they're to the thoracolumbar fascia. If you've ever looked at an anatomical drawing you'll notice that most of the lower back is just a big white patch. This is the fascia, a connective tissue structurally similar to the endo/peri/epi-mesium that surrounds muscle fibers/bundles/-s respectively. If you hurt your low back and isn't disc related it's probably a fascial tear. Remember how I talked about directional stresses being essential to soft tissue remodeling with the correct orientation? It's part of Davis' law. When most people injure themselves like that they go into full-stop rest/recover mode and immobilize it, past the point of sense. Obviously some rest and caution is required to avoid making it worse, but most people go overboard and the result is that once it heals the collagen fibers are misaligned leading to stiffer, weaker tissue that can pull unevenly and trip pain sensors.

Doing what you did is the perfect way to fix it. Apply gentle, controlled stresses in the proper direction so that over time as the tissue naturally replenishes itself, the newly formed fibers have the proper orientation. It takes patience, but if you have a "bad back" that isn't due to a disc problem it's fixable.

[Elliot]

My lower back feels like it needs to be stretched on a medieval torture wheel, but face down on the wheel. Or visualize the old cartoon of cannibals carrying a missionary back to their camp suspended from a pole. Using my arms and legs I can tension myself in such a way for a very short time, and the relief is spectacular.
Is this similar to the teeter-tottering devices that suspend the patient from their feet?

Even exercises that are generally considered to be spine-stretching, such as the toe-touching, seem to also involve some small degree of compression, and I seem to suffer for that.

X-rays suggest my discs are all right, but a couple of the actual spine bone segments are offset or tilted sideways. (That would be three decades of cumulative work injury.)

All right, I'm going on my morning walk, and I'll be "vacuuming" the whole way.

[Elliot]

Hey, on the subject of pain, I just heard from Jax Dee. She hasn't been on ePlaya much lately, but she reports: "I'm having some luck with my pain treatments." Now, that's great news all around!

[Savannah]

Aww, thank you for passing on the good news, Elliot.

[Aurelia]

Dear Super Fossa,
umm, sure would appreciate you moving on to a knee discussion
dancer vintage knees specifically.

at the thrift store recently I found silver toe shoes.. love them of course
which is how this personal dance began
suggestions ?
xoA.

[FossaFerox]

Just like with the low back, knee problems (including pain) usually aren't caused by the knee itself, they're caused by something happening above or below them (hip or ankle/foot) and the problems are incredibly varied. With that, there's a LOT to consider.

Getting to your specific question on toe shoes, I am a huge fan of minimalist footwear including vibram-style toe shoes. That being said, it's a huge change if you're used to wearing conventional shoes with a ton of padding and arch support. If you want to switch over it must be done with extreme care, caution, and patience. Just a few hours ago I rounded out a full total body workout by running a 7:30 mile up a 2% grade. I did this wearing minimalist shoes and WITHOUT letting my heels touch the ground at all. Not even once. My calves feel gooood right now. However, had I tried that even two years ago I would have severely injured myself.

Start off wearing them for limited periods of time. Make sure you carry a lot more weight on your forefoot (ball of the foot, just behind your toes, not on your toes themselves) especially when you eventually work up to running or jogging in them. Pay attention to any pain, tightness, or discomfort coming from your calves and from the arches of your feet. Listen to your body.

The thing about conventional shoes is most of them are functioning as a crutch, cradling your weaknesses and shifting the load away from underdeveloped or under active muscles. The trouble is, doing so kicks off a vicious cycle and it isn't one that makes you stronger, it makes you more and more dependent on your shoes. Imagine if you broke your leg and had to walk with crutches then kept using the crutches for the rest of your life while you let your healed leg waste away and atrophy. That's really what most overly padded shoes are doing.

Worse yet, with all that padding and support you tend to develop what are termed maladaptive movement patterns. These are also patterns that tend to translate unfortunate stresses to the knees that the knees are not built to handle.

Proper rehab will move you away from overly padded shoes towards minimalist footwear. The early stages of actual PT tend to focus on quite a bit of barefoot activity including things like picking up marbles and scrunching towels with your toes to strengthen your arches, both of which I recommend before you ever try jogging in toe shoes. Benchmark: You should be able to clench your toes towards the soles of your feet AS HARD AS YOU CAN for at least 30 seconds without feeling them cramp. Bit by bit, the weak muscles will become stronger and things like overpronation tend to gradually disappear. Though again, if you rush it you will hurt yourself. Plantarfasciitis SUCKS.

One final bit of general advice I can give goes back to overpronation. Find your most well worn shoes and look at the soles. Figure out what the overall wear pattern is like.

Most people with knee problems overpronate which comes from weak ankles and tight hip muscles. The barefoot work will gradually strengthen the foot and ankle. To solve the hip issues you need to work on stretching your deep external rotators, piriformis, glute med./min., and TFL. To do this I recommend two main stretches.

First, there's this one:


A modification I recommend once you get proficient at it is to only pull the thigh in with one hand (same side as the thigh you're gripping) while pushing the other knee away from you with your newly freed hand. You can also play with how far across your body you pull the ankle (left/right) to go after whatever feels tightest. Don't hide from your tight muscles when you stretch. Go after them like they owe you something, because they fucking well do.

The second one can be done when you finish that one. Simply grab the "free" knee and pull it to the opposite shoulder. This will shift the stretch away from the hip joint to the outer portion of your thigh if you do it right.

Hold the stretches for 30 seconds each, then do the other side, repeat 3-5 times in succession. Should be done 3-5 days a week.

If there's anything else you'd like to know or anything I was unclear on, please let me know.

Other bonus thoughts on minimalist shoes:

The more padding your shoe has the more likely you are to severely sprain your ankle if you roll it. The distance between the ball of your ankle and the corner of your sole acts as a lever arm when you roll your ankle. Longer lever arms mean more torque mean dramatically more ankle sprains, and more severe sprains at that.

The more padding your shoe has the less stable you are and the more likely you are to roll your ankle in the first place. When I want to challenge a client's balance I stand them on an AirEx pad, essentially a two inch thick block of foam. Many running shoes essentially have that unstable surface built in.

[Aurelia]

sorry , although clearly fabulous information which I will share with my sons who will appreciate you
And I appreciate you !
my problem is that I was a toe shoe dancer long ago.. now dealing with cartilage-less knee issues
dealing rather well but still turning in
barefoot is best
xoA.

[FossaFerox]

Did you have meniscus surgery at some point or is your condition self-diagnosed?

[Aurelia]

have done medical school
and anything else possible in applied scientific movement
dancing is a passion
exercise any way possible
resist surgery
be my trainer !
xoA.

[FossaFerox]

Sadly I can't train you remotely, especially not without knowing what is actually going on. I can't, in good conscience, recommend any particular exercise without knowing what problem we're trying to address.

If you are in fact having cartilage issues I can recommend you take a glucosamie/chondroitin/msm supplement. HOWEVER, if you are not willing to bet with total confidence that it's cartilage related do not take these pills. One of the things they do is shift how your body forms collagen and this actually interferes with tendon and ligament healing and maintenance. It's a worthwhile trade-off if you have rheumatoid arthritis and are trying to get back to baseline functionality, but a terrible idea for people in general.

This is particularly true if your "cartlidgeless" knee issue is actually a tear in the white zone of a meniscus since the healing potential there is limited to begin with.

One thing I can recommend is you keep the knee moving without load whenever possible. Putting a rolled up towel under your thigh when you sit in a chair and swinging your knee gently in a limited range of motion can actually help with a lot of joint capsule issues since it keeps synovial fluid circulating which promotes healing. Fancy hospitals have machines which move limbs through precise ranges of motion non-stop (Continuous passive motion or CPM for short) which have to be set up very carefully to make sure they aren't stressing the joint in an unnatural or unhealthy manner. Again, start small, make the range bigger over a period of weeks or even months, never "push through" sharp pain.

[Aurelia]

you are very good
and yes I am totally aware of what it is and have been working on it
but the new thing of my interest is the technique of changing joint movement
kneeing outward instead of inward

so thank you !

and enough of me and what about you ?
xoA.

[pink]

Thank you Fossa for all the info. I used to be like Tatonka, but age & inactivity (and I fear the antidepressants I've been on for the last 13 years) have slowed my metabolism to a crawl. I've found inactivity leads to pain which tends to lead to more inactivity. Right now it's knees & back mostly.

I just asked a friend today to be my exercise Domme/sponsor. I have to check in on her each day with 30 minutes of exercise. Slow starting, but I'll overdo and then have fatigue & pain. I hate how sedentary I've become and how rotten it makes me feel.

[Elliot]

As I was doing the “dead bug” and such today, I remembered an exercise my mother taught me. She must have known something about it, since she was a “star of stage and screen”, which involved dancing.
She called it “bicycling”. Flat on the back, legs in the air, “bicycling up-side down”. Feels useful when I do it now.

[Box Burner]

One thing I can recommend is you keep the knee moving without load whenever possible. Putting a rolled up towel under your thigh when you sit in a chair and swinging your knee gently in a limited range of motion can actually help with a lot of joint capsule issues since it keeps synovial fluid circulating which promotes healing. Fancy hospitals have machines which move limbs through precise ranges of motion non-stop (Continuous passive motion or CPM for short) which have to be set up very carefully to make sure they aren't stressing the joint in an unnatural or unhealthy manner. Again, start small, make the range bigger over a period of weeks or even months, never "push through" sharp pain.

Almost 30 years ago I crashed on a bicycle and shattered my knee. fracture femur, tibia and fibia and the inside of the joint was ground up. Amazingly the kneecap,which was the point of impact, was not damaged at all. The tibia was bolted back together with a steel plate. Anyway, after the surgery they put me in a brand new machine they were trying out and I was the first to use it. It was one of these range of motion machines. They brought cameras to film me with my knee being pumped up and down for some promotional and training videos that the manufacturer was making. I was in it for 3 hours at a time twice a day for 2 weeks. Felt kind of weird when it was on.

[FossaFerox]

Wow Box, that's awesome! Not the injury (well, maybe the part where your kneecap didn't split) but that you're part of history. Bootleg CPM helped save my knee after my fall while climbing.

Elliot, the exercise you describe is very similar to the dead bug but shifts the focus away from the TVM towards the abs. It's significantly harder as well. Be careful about not to flex the spine too much while you do it and don't strain.

[pink]

Day 1 success. Did yardwork; picking up fallen branches, garbage & raked leaves. I have several acres, so it's enough to get me sweaty & breathing hard. Did about an hour. Tomorrow: more garbage. Since I'm in the city, trash thrown on my property or getting blown into the fence is a big problem.

Doing the dead bug makes my back feel good

[gypsy68]

I made it all 3 days of water aerobics this week. I had missed the last couple of weeks (sick). Believe me, the last thing I wanted to do this week was wake up at 5 am to head to the pool. If I wait to go to one of the later classes, I will not end up going. So I have to be at the 6am class. But at least I made it.

I find if I start missing a day here or there, it becomes easier for me to miss more and more. So I have to get back on track.

Now I just need to get back to calorie counting. I was really good until this last spring. Then I just kept slipping more and more. Starting tomorrow I will be back on my 1100 calories a day! (Now that I put it out there, hopefully I can stick to it)

[Savannah]

I haven't wanted to go to the gym at all this week; managed only my dance classes Monday. So instead of totally fighting that (and failing) or feeling bad I've been taking advantage of the dry weather and taking the long walk from work to home every day. Without rain, the autumn leaves are wonderfully crunchy and fun to kick through, and last night I got to see all the kids out & about in their costumes. It's especially fun to see the confused ones who are 2 or 3 years old & don't quite know what's going on, but that it is something INTENSELY SPECIAL OMG.

[peyote2004]

I havn't been able to work out this week. I broke 2 toes and badly bruised my foot, Sunday night. It's very purple, and was quite painful all week. It still hurts, but not as bad as a couple of days ago.

The weather has turned cold, and my bike is away for the season. I will be using the stationary at the gym until April .... It's so boring. I prefer being out for a real ride. I also have an extreme dislike of the music they play at the gym... the boom boom boom is annoying. It's so loud, that I can hear it even with my iPod on.

Last week, I had a session with one of the trainers at the gym. Super nice guy. I think he may be from Mexico or something, because he has a thick latin accent. It would be very sexy, if he didn't end every sentence with "ok, mmm". I found him hard to understand, and the "ok, mmm" was very distracting; so I feel like I'm no more knowledgable than I was before the session

I have a set of free weights at home, but I'm not confident enough to use them without hurting myself ... that was part of what the trainer was showing me. I've decided not to try it alone. My nephew lives with me. It's reading week at his university, so he's been at his parent's place. He comes home on Tuesday, and one of the first things I'm going to get him to do is show me the proper way to use the weights. Until then, I'm using my resistance bands.

Fossa ... I like the links you posted. I have trouble with my back and hips so I do a lot of stretching, etc. The dead Bug one definately helps.

[tatonka]

I havnt worked out since BM , im trying to put on a litle layer of Bodyfat . Only trouble is I hurt now , when I was working out the muscles held all
my bones in the right spot. The less I use them the rustier they get

[FossaFerox]

You can put on weight and still use your muscles. There's a ton of stuff that requires strength, stability, and relatively full range of motion but doesn't burn a ton of calories or overload muscles. Think bodyweight stuff. Think yoga, swimming, martial arts, dance, etc all done at low to moderate intensity. It will slow your progress a little bit, but it will also make it easier since you'll have more of an appetite and your body will be healthier overall.

[peyote2004]

I wanted to get out and get moving, so I took a job yesterday, delivering flyers. I ended up walking for 5 hours straight; without a break.

I was good for the first 3 hours but then my hips started to hurt. I expected the sore hips, but what I didn't anticipate was the pain in the back of my left knee. A little pain going up about an inch from the crease in the back of the knee. And quite a bit of pain radiating down from the same spot to the upper third of the calf. I didn't experience any pain in my right knee.

I was super sore when I got home, and was having trouble walking because of the pain in my hips. Today the pain is still there, but not as bad. It's mainly in the back of my knee and the side/front of both thighs.