9/11

[ygmir]

FUCK GOLIATH!

careful, cousin...........

[adam link]

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[Deb Prothero]

Good to watch this debate from the outside.

Not that I really have a voice in this debate but I'd like to add that an awful lot of time is wasted pointing fingers at the "DC elite" when the real culprits are the lobbyists who are greasing the machine in favour of corporations.

In my humble opinion, real election finance reform is the best bet for serving the people. Remove the influence of lobbyists and corporations so that the election process becomes fairer and involves the debate of ideas rather than coming down to who has the most $ to influence the voters.

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations can contribute as persons, possibly the only sane way to control spending is to cap the amount that candidates can spend while forcing third party spending to be labeled like cigarette package warnings or like big pharma advertising outlining the hazards associated with taking the dose that the corporate ad is selling you on.

As for whether Bush was capable of conceiving of the twin towers attack let alone orchestrating the idea: in my opinion, Bush was a puppet of Dick Cheney and was kept in the dark - Bush was smart enough to know his place in the scheme of things. Cheney was capable of such an act - whether he did or not is surely a study worthy of further investigation given the numbers of studies that have raised questions not covered in the original commission.

just the two cents of a foreigner watching with interest...

[ZeroandOne]

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[theCryptofishist]

Deb's right. The fact that politicians can be bought by sums of money so fabulous they haven't been seen since Sinbad (note: not the comedian) that the actual votes don't really count, is what's driving this country onto the rocks.

Although, I'm still in the "people in the administration might have known that something was up and not have done something for political reasons, but they absolutely didn't understand what and severely underestimated the carnage" camp.

[ygmir]

yeah, well, I don't like the lobby, and, I don't like the politicians.

the thing is, the lobbyists would have no power, if the politicians, would not accept their bribes.......that simple.

Corporate money in politics, would have little effect, if, people would actually take the time to research the candidates. All the info on them is out there, for free.
But, folks just want to sit and be told who to vote for and why.
So, the commercials work.

Having said, I don't like lobbyists, I do note, they are not buying anything, that is not for sale.

the politicians, are for sale.
And, I feel, the vast majority.
I'm sure of the 500 something in both houses, there are a handful of respectable, persons of integrity. But, not enough.

So, yeah, bitch about the lobbyists, corporations, and all the money they throw around.
How about, putting people in power, who will not "sell out"?
How about, a mechanism, to jail them for selling influence?

I dunno, but, it's not just a simple equation, like "evil corporations out to ruin the world".

[Deb Prothero]

ygmir, why are politicians for sale?

hmm, they make 1/10th of what they would make in the private sector, for one thing.

so if you want better you gotta pay or you can let the lobbyists pay.

The rules are in place to enforce but they are not enforced. Why not?

In this day, people don't take the time to research - least not the way you and I were taught. Most people don't even read any more and instead make their minds up based on the adverts.

Why is that?

Are they too exhausted from the work-a-day world that pays them the same wages they made in the 1970s or is it because they know they're going to struggle along for most of their days and never be as well off as their parents and a majority will not even have a pension to retire with.

or is it cause they're scared stiff if someone in their family gets sick and they won't be able to pay for it.

politicians and elections are just an annoyance for many 'cause they don't deal with the day-to-day problems that people are living.

my 2 cents...and those are 2010 cents not 1975 ones although they're worth about the same.

[ygmir]

ygmir, why are politicians for sale?

hmm, they make 1/10th of what they would make in the private sector, for one thing.

so if you want better you gotta pay or you can let the lobbyists pay.

The rules are in place to enforce but they are not enforced. Why not?

In this day, people don't take the time to research - least not the way you and I were taught. Most people don't even read any more and instead make their minds up based on the adverts.

Why is that?

Are they too exhausted from the work-a-day world that pays them the same wages they made in the 1970s or is it because they know they're going to struggle along for most of their days and never be as well off as their parents and a majority will not even have a pension to retire with.

or is it cause they're scared stiff if someone in their family gets sick and they won't be able to pay for it.

politicians and elections are just an annoyance for many 'cause they don't deal with the day-to-day problems that people are living.

my 2 cents...and those are 2010 cents not 1975 ones although they're worth about the same.

see, for me, the rub is that the politicians, say they want to run "to help" or "do the good work".........and so, imply, it's not the money/wages, but, for "the greater good".
As such, pay should not matter, if they're as altruistic, as they portray themselves.

I've always maintained, elected officials should have one of two pay scales.
Nothing--because they are altruistic, and, want to help their fellow citizens

or

a whole bunch--because, then, we'll get the best and brightest, purely from the fact they can make bank from the job.

but, as it is.....they're for sale.
and,it's their own fault, for accepting bribes/gifts.
not excuses.

I also don't see, that the pay most of them get (especially with all the perks, insurance and retirement) is that bad.


The rules are not enforced, because, the enforcement officials, are guilty of the same misconduct........they won't burn one of their own.

You can't blame all the ills of the world, on the "evil corporations".........
you gotta know, there are greedy, corrupt people in government, and, just for the sake of what they can get.

this myopic, "blame corporations" for everything, gets thin.
Of course, there are evil corps. But, there are also evil, corrupt public organizations, political organizations, social organizations, on and on........

Take away the ability to buy off those in power, and, the rest will, take care of it's self.

all, IMHO of course. Being an uneducated "breaker of rocks", with no college, I just go by what I see, and, of course, it's my own perception.

[thisisthatwhichis]

It's usually.... "follow the money"......., YG




*Damn, I wasn't going to post in a politico thread*

[Deb Prothero]

ygmir, you're the last person on earth I'd want to disagree with on this issue. Yes, there are some good corporations. Yes, there are some good politicians.

I guess the ones that make the news are the bad ones.

I should have tempered my comment on the corporations, I don't really believe they are all evil but they are acting more and more like evil humans - pushing hard to get away with whatever they can get away with. And no one seems to be able to make them act responsibly or ethically - there's no percentage in that and it doesn't affect the next quarter's bottom line or stock price.

Small to medium sized enterprises tend to operate on a scale we can comprehend and therefore seem to be more ethical. Large corporations seem to be out of control - but that may be that the news media is covering business news from the same perspective as the rest of the news - if it bleeds, it leads.

As TITWI so wisely says, follow the $.

[Simon of the Playa]

tom delay should be getting his lily white ass buggered by now....




you see, the system works.

[ygmir]

It's usually.... "follow the money"......., YG




*Damn, I wasn't going to post in a politico thread*

I agree with that.
I thought, I sort of was addressing it in that manner?
maybe, my languaging needs work, again.

the money, offered, or accepted, is the problem. IMHO.

Yeah, Deb, I'd agree that the MSM probably plays up more of the miscreant companies, than showing those that do "good" things.

Still, though, the money matters not, if, no one will take it.

Yeah, Simon, I hope Delay, is the first of many of those bastards, that get "sent up", you gotta know, there is a long list of 'em.......he's just the first, one hopes.

[Simon of the Playa]

Tom is just the tip of the iceberg.

[ygmir]

d ya think it's all republicans getting pinched, for a reason?

[Roberto Dobbisano]

sorry.

edited for clarity.

[Liz Estrada]

LOOK OVER THERE IT"S A FLYING ELEPHANT!













maybe it's because they're Dumb?

"oh"....

[Box Burner]

I see it's time for some quotes. In no particular order:

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." – Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791.

"It's important to realize that whenever you give power to politicians or bureaucrats, it will be used for what they want, not for what you want."-- Harry Browne

"If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual exceptions." -- Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1787

"The United States was supposed to have a limited government because the founders knew governmental power attracts swarms of crooks, demagogues and despots as surely as horse manure attracts swarms of horseflies." -- Rick Gaber

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." -- Tacitus, Roman senator and historian (A.D. c.56-c.115)

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to always be kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1743-1826

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Democracy is defended in 3 stages. Ballot Box, Jury Box, Cartridge Box." -- Ambrose Bierce

"The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other." -- Ronald Reagan

"Once a year we should hang someone in government as an example to his fellows." -- Franklyn C. "Lyn" Nofziger, Press Secretary for President Reagan

[ygmir]

good ones BB.
Thanks.