LarryCo Responds re: Commodification Camps

[Jovankat]

Well now the error is mine because it was not Larry I was speaking about. I should have been specific
I was so tired of the SS verbosity and self~righteous attitude.

I support the project and its success.

xoA.

DrYes wasn't referring to Larry either (although I did think that at first) he was talking about the author of burners.me.

aserendipity would I be right in thinking yor were talking about posters here?

[digital]

I was so tired of the SS verbosity and self~righteous attitude.

Definitely with you on that one. He just kept rehashing the same points over and over.
I finally had enough and questioned his endgame.
Didn't seem to like that too much.
Oh well.

[DrYes]

For whatever it's worth, I wrote a shortish post about the Danger Ranger vs. Burners.me controversy.

I can't seem to get the site to load. Is it me? Would love to read it.

As for Steve, his post was a bit long winded. However, I felt it was sincere and I'm glad he posted it.

Oops, apologies! Can't edit the post now, so try here.

[The Rod]

Awesome. Thanks for sharing DrYes.

The site looks good, looks like a lot of work went into it. I'm glad you went live with it, I remember you voicing concerns about it in the midst of the frenzy.

[Simon of the Playa]

yes, thanks for sharing..."dr. yes"...

[alt12]

For whatever it's worth, I wrote a shortish post about the Danger Ranger vs. Burners.me controversy.

Oh great, because we really need another techie's personal blog covering burning man...Ugghh

I think I'll start a blog too, maybe Burners.Douche.

[lucky420]

Bwahahaha no shit ^^^^

[The Rod]

Maybe we do need more. Considering that up until now there has been ONE. One dissenting voice publicly calling on the Borg for more accountability and integrity. They didn't like it much, so they started name calling. Now it's a contest of who's the bigger troll.

There will always be some people that love something by ripping out and waving in the air the ugly parts of it.

There will always be some people that love something by sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring the ugly parts of it.

[Lonesomebri]

So, am I understanding this right? Are Larry Harvey/Jim Tannenbaum blaming the dj?

Correct, and that DJ will not be allowed to spin it on the playa in 2015. Victory for the forces of de-commodification.

Interesting how the credit for the entire event and its success so easily goes straight to the top, yet the blame for a disaster goes to some guy they hired.

[alt12]

Maybe we do need more. Considering that up until now there has been ONE. One dissenting voice publicly calling on the Borg for more accountability and integrity. They didn't like it much, so they started name calling. Now it's a contest of who's the bigger troll.

There will always be some people that love something by ripping out and waving in the air the ugly parts of it.

There will always be some people that love something by sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring the ugly parts of it.

Surely you're kidding, right? There have been hundreds of voices on this matter. They can be heard on Eplaya, Facebook, Reddit, even the burning man.org comments section. Most are voicing their opinions because they love the event not because they have huge egos and want status and recognition

[maladroit]

Maybe you should read both sentences of what you quoted.

[DrYes]

For whatever it's worth, I wrote a shortish post about the Danger Ranger vs. Burners.me controversy.

Oh great, because we really need another techie's personal blog covering burning man...Ugghh

Clearly then it's not written for you and you can safely ignore it. Problem solved! Win-win.

[DrYes]

Awesome. Thanks for sharing DrYes.

The site looks good, looks like a lot of work went into it. I'm glad you went live with it, I remember you voicing concerns about it in the midst of the frenzy.

Thanks! I felt like the response from the org was at least sufficient to not ruin my enthusiasm for now. We'll see how things stand after we've all been to the playa in 2015 and seen how well the BMORG follows through.

[GreyCoyote]

I kinda think that for myself, this stupid, ugly chapter of BM is now on hold. We screamed. The BORG (eventually) responded (albeit perhaps poorly). So we are no longer guessing. They spoke, they spun, and it is what it is.

Personally, I am done with it... At least until I hit the dust. There does not seem to be much margin in thumping the war drums at this early date.

Having said that, the Dust shall rise... But in the mean time....

[Sham]

I kinda think that for myself, this stupid, ugly chapter of BM is now on hold. We screamed. The BORG (eventually) responded (albeit perhaps poorly). So we are no longer guessing. They spoke, they spun, and it is what it is.

Personally, I am done with it... At least until I hit the dust. There does not seem to be much margin in thumping the war drums at this early date.

Having said that, the Dust shall rise... But in the mean time....

Great words GC! I want to lock this thread so bad, but just can't do it. This subject has been beaten to death and I completely agree with your sentiments.

It's time to head toward the holidays and ticket announcements in the foreseeable future.

Time to move forward......

[digital]

I kinda think that for myself, this stupid, ugly chapter of BM is now on hold. We screamed. The BORG (eventually) responded (albeit perhaps poorly). So we are no longer guessing. They spoke, they spun, and it is what it is.

Personally, I am done with it... At least until I hit the dust. There does not seem to be much margin in thumping the war drums at this early date.

Having said that, the Dust shall rise... But in the mean time....

Great words GC! I want to lock this thread so bad, but just can't do it. This subject has been beaten to death and I completely agree with your sentiments.

It's time to head toward the holidays and ticket announcements in the foreseeable future.

Time to move forward......

Amen. Seriously, AMEN!

[GreyCoyote]

Sham, I can totally understand your desire. I also understand the sheer outrage shared by many here. That isnt going away soon, and perhaps it should nkt.

I guess in the end its wisest to let this storm blow itself out of its own accord (and I dont mean that with any bad intent. This was one HELL of a storm and the BMORG IMHO got totally caught with their pants down. There SHOULD be a squall and a gnashing of teeth for such a ln egregious perversion of our event). But I think locking the treads would do nothing more than infuriate those who are *just* starting to work through the early stages of a coldly muted, tepid, subdued grump.

Fact: The only thing left holding many of us here is the desire to make it better. In the opinion of many, Burningman is still broken, even if the "fix" is allegedly in.

Through fire do we grow...

[theCryptofishist]

It's time to head toward the holidays...

Weren't you all "the holidays are so depressing" last year? I'd think you'd welcome watching a good, shrill, beat it into the ground distraction. A toothache may be better, but this is easier to schedule.

[theCryptofishist]

And to go back to my problem with burners.meh, the tone just felt like there was no room for any opinion but his own. We all have different relationships with the event and with the llc/non-profit. If you aren't going to allow that diversity of opinion exists, and if we all had the same opinion life would get boring, than you're never going to have a powerful criticism, just a high pitched whine.


Or maybe a whinge, I'm not exactly sure.

[maladroit]

A slight nudge of defense here, burners.me is his own site and doesn't necessarily need to put forth any other opinion besides his own. There is plenty of room for other opinions...on the rest of the internet. I read maybe 1-2 articles per YEAR on his site, there are plenty of other opinion and discussion sources.

[digital]

A slight nudge of defense here, burners.me is his own site and doesn't necessarily need to put forth any other opinion besides his own. There is plenty of room for other opinions...on the rest of the internet. I read maybe 1-2 articles per YEAR on his site, there are plenty of other opinion and discussion sources.

I disagree on this point.

If burners.me is focused on tabloid style journalism then yes, only one opinion is necessary. If, however, his goals are more lofty in revealing Truth then he owes the community a more objective journalistic style -- Including all opinions, not just his own.

To me, so far, it has been much more scandalous tabloid than fair and balanced journalism. He seems to feed off anything negative and hardly never on the good of Burning Man and the burner community. In my opinion, of course.

[maladroit]

I've found that the louder someone claims to be revealing the truth, the more it's actually just a set of opinions. This can get way out of hand and start wars and shape the borders of nations.

[digital]

I've found that the louder someone claims to be revealing the truth, the more it's actually just a set of opinions. This can get way out of hand and start wars and shape the borders of nations.

Then apparently you are unfamiliar with things like logic, mathematics and objective reporting of facts.

[maladroit]

Then apparently you are unfamiliar with things like logic, mathematics and objective reporting of facts.

The "louder" part was key. You are more likely to find someone on a street corner screaming "REPENT! THE REVELATION IS NIGH!" than you are to find someone screaming "THE PINKALL-STERLING CONJECTURE CLASSIFIES ALL OF THE TORII IN THE HYPERSPHERE THAT MINIMIZE AREA SUBJECT TO A VOLUME CONSTRAINT!"

[vargaso]

A slight nudge of defense here, burners.me is his own site and doesn't necessarily need to put forth any other opinion besides his own. There is plenty of room for other opinions...on the rest of the internet. I read maybe 1-2 articles per YEAR on his site, there are plenty of other opinion and discussion sources.

I disagree on this point.

If burners.me is focused on tabloid style journalism then yes, only one opinion is necessary. If, however, his goals are more lofty in revealing Truth then he owes the community a more objective journalistic style -- Including all opinions, not just his own.

To me, so far, it has been much more scandalous tabloid than fair and balanced journalism. He seems to feed off anything negative and hardly never on the good of Burning Man and the burner community. In my opinion, of course.

He regularly has guest posts, and almost always offers those who disagree with him in the comments the opportunity to post as a guest. He can be shrill and sometimes is a bit of a conspiracy nut, but overall, I think he's doing a good job criticizing aspects of the BMORG that need criticizing.

[Lonesomebri]

"Wish this issue would die", didn't we start with that?

I wish they would lock this thread, and lock the other ones that never died, and block the burn.me site, and lock the comments over on the regular BM blog, and block the news out of Ferguson, and limit the expressions of negativity coming out of Iraq.... Then we could finally put all that behind us.

[Ano]

I feel like there just isn't anything to talk about, now. The next step is action... in a little over 260ish days. What else is there, really? We've heard from sherpas. We've talked with one of the cultural liasons that the BORG apparently employed for the camps (on Reddit). We've had some leaks from the inside, and the outside. We've had a BORG response, a response from Larry, and a response from Danger Ranger. We've had Burners.me and their long saga, including a back-and-forth with the BORG, and now we even have new Burning Man blogs popping up to comment on the exact stuff we've all talked about for the past few months.

I guess we could talk with someone who camped there? But the one guy who said he was going to respond, didn't ever come out and say anything (From Facebook, on the Sherpa's post). We could have some of the folks who've made shadowy "I worked for/worked with/know them/" statements say something... but is there anything really new to say?

I think it's important that we don't forget what happened, and that we keep an eye out next year for opportunities to acculturate, but at this point... what else is there to do? Beat the same drum over and over?

I think we've all hit that point. We're at the end until the Man Burns and we all come back to the default to post on the internet about how terrible/awesome the Burn was.

Thats just like, my opinion, man.

[maladroit]

I don't think it's the end yet, while there are still things that haven't been satisfactorily addressed. If everyone looks at Larry's post and says "Sigh. I guess that's all we're getting, I'll sit down and shut up now" then you're telling BMORG that all this sabre-rattling can be appeasing by a wishy-washy re-mumbling of existing policy without addressing the fact the policies are being ignored.

[DrYes]

The next step is action... in a little over 260ish days. What else is there, really? .

I've gotta say it, and I apologize in advance...

The Man burns in 270 days! Wahoo!

[Eric]

Maybe we do need more. Considering that up until now there has been ONE. One dissenting voice publicly calling on the Borg for more accountability and integrity.

Talking about having a head stuck in the sand. Piss Clear existed for 13 years (and had closed up shop before you ever hit the playa) and had lots of articles bashing the Org & the way they did things, ePlaya has been a constant source of questioning and complaining about all facets of how Burning Man is run since before I joined (and that was 11 years ago), as was the Tribe group, and the current facebook group is.

There have always been lots of dissenting voices taking on the Org - BORG2 (2005) didn't happen through lack of dissent, it explicitly came out of people hating the way art grants were handled at the time. The ticket kerfuffle in 2012 was a huge amount of dissenting voices forcing a change in the ticket program - in the middle of it. Every change the Org makes is run through the Burner mill, ground and parsed and argued over. Just go pick any random year in the archives of this board & start re-reading some of the issues.

If anything b.m is all about "look at me" blogging, and driving clicks to his site. While I'm happy with the way things seem to be moving (we won't know for sure until we're on playa), giving Captain Clickbait the sole credit is ludicrous. There were plenty of voices leading the charge, lots on here, and he fed off it.