Why is Burning Man so white?
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DVD Burner
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blackjohnnie
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given enough time under the sun no one is white out on the playa.
too many lovelies to adore,
too many pieces to stand in front of and lose your shit, ala the fallen chandelier, the white whale, the pirate ship...
too many poets to hear like Ian, the techno pagan octopuss messiah...
too many dj's to skip and hear, too much dancing, too much loving,
too many fucking awesome people to meet to notice...
but it seems like burning man is an expensive commitment.
i wonder what the cultural socio economic stats might say about
who is able to participate...
this seems like an old question.
blackjohnnie.
too many lovelies to adore,
too many pieces to stand in front of and lose your shit, ala the fallen chandelier, the white whale, the pirate ship...
too many poets to hear like Ian, the techno pagan octopuss messiah...
too many dj's to skip and hear, too much dancing, too much loving,
too many fucking awesome people to meet to notice...
but it seems like burning man is an expensive commitment.
i wonder what the cultural socio economic stats might say about
who is able to participate...
this seems like an old question.
blackjohnnie.
[quote="blackjohnnie"]
but it seems like burning man is an expensive commitment.
i wonder what the cultural socio economic stats might say about
who is able to participate...
I think this is a very good, and interesting question, and one that *might* help out in this played out topic.
but it seems like burning man is an expensive commitment.
i wonder what the cultural socio economic stats might say about
who is able to participate...
I think this is a very good, and interesting question, and one that *might* help out in this played out topic.
Everyone has the opportunity for greatness, not fame, but greatness, for greatness only requires service--Martin Luther King Jr
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Rian Jackson
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We're all inbred! We're all inbred!blyslv wrote:An article a few years back said that all Europeans came from a "genetic bottleneck" of ~1000 people. That would mean the aprox. 300 million euros and aprox. 200 million americans of european descent have roughly 1000 ancestors in common.stuart wrote: If what little I know about the migration of peoples out of africa a gazillion years ago holds true then the genetic analysis you are citing seems quite predictable.
Now that's reason to celebrate diversity!
Sure makes ya feel close to each other doesn't it?
I kinda like it.
surlier than thou
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Rian Jackson
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- Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
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OT, but:
One of the most intriguing (and self centered things) i've had a chance at over the past years is to look into my own genealogical past. It's not really a racial thing per se, but more cultural....
to know that i'm not only scandinavian
but italian (Julius Caesar)
French (maybe Basque)
Iraqi
Egyptian
Persian
Indian
descended from germanic horde leaders
irish
british isles mutt
hebrew
German
to name a few.
it's pretty sweet to study ancient persian literature and realise that you're studying your own history.
back to your regularly scheduled conversation, about which i could say much but will choose not to.
One of the most intriguing (and self centered things) i've had a chance at over the past years is to look into my own genealogical past. It's not really a racial thing per se, but more cultural....
to know that i'm not only scandinavian
but italian (Julius Caesar)
French (maybe Basque)
Iraqi
Egyptian
Persian
Indian
descended from germanic horde leaders
irish
british isles mutt
hebrew
German
to name a few.
it's pretty sweet to study ancient persian literature and realise that you're studying your own history.
back to your regularly scheduled conversation, about which i could say much but will choose not to.
surlier than thou
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Rian Jackson
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- Location: In Rob's Head
I like to let you go unchallenged somewhere on this board.stuart wrote:why the change of heart?about which i could say much but will choose not to.
<poke, poke>
I think it's good for your self esteem.
<poke poke> back
you know, one of my campmates insists that 'Fuck off' is the new 'I love you' and 'I love you' is the new "Fuck off'
in that vein, my dear stuart, Fuck off.
surlier than thou
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Rian Jackson
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Ignorance is Bliss...
Thanks for posting this! I have had this recurring thought since my first year in '98. I think it has to do with class and economics. BM isn't exactly affordable. It was created by white guys, right? It caters to white middle class techies and all the toys associated with raving, building and creating elaborate structures and doo-dads in the middle of BFE. This shit ain't cheap!
Sadly, I don't think BM is very diverse. It is definitley an extension of white culture, which doesn't *have* to be loaded with negative connotations. I don't think there is one cut-and-dry answer for why BM isn't more colorful, but I do think economics has a lot to do with it.
I happily support and participate in the festival, but I am aware of the exclusion that takes place as a result of the rising ticket prices and the unavoidable costs associated with all the fluff and consumerism that comes along with BM.
I really have a lot to say about this: race, consumerism, elitism, class, economics, and Burning Man etc....I digress and step off the soap box quietly...
'stop thy bleeding liberal heart.'
Sadly, I don't think BM is very diverse. It is definitley an extension of white culture, which doesn't *have* to be loaded with negative connotations. I don't think there is one cut-and-dry answer for why BM isn't more colorful, but I do think economics has a lot to do with it.
I happily support and participate in the festival, but I am aware of the exclusion that takes place as a result of the rising ticket prices and the unavoidable costs associated with all the fluff and consumerism that comes along with BM.
I really have a lot to say about this: race, consumerism, elitism, class, economics, and Burning Man etc....I digress and step off the soap box quietly...
'stop thy bleeding liberal heart.'
Yeah! What are all of you pink people going on about? Come by Spike's Vampire Bar this year and see what "white" really means MUAHAHAHAHAdiane o'thirst wrote:If I looked in the mirror and my skin were white, I'd be *seriously* worried...only vampires are <i>white.</i>
Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip around the sun every year.
IMO, Burning Man is so white because it was started by white people and culture begets itself. The economic question doen't hold up so well, because non-white people also have disposable income.
The number of black and hispanic people living primarily in mainstream or "white" American culture remains small compared to their overall populations. Also, I believe that the radical self expression encouraged by Burning Man is not culturally valued among ethnic groups who sense of safety (and perhaps their actual security) lies in maintaining a strong group identity.
Finally, running around naked or covered in paint while getting high and burning things is not a very black or hispanic thing to do. However, it is utterly northern european in its anthropological origins.
The number of black and hispanic people living primarily in mainstream or "white" American culture remains small compared to their overall populations. Also, I believe that the radical self expression encouraged by Burning Man is not culturally valued among ethnic groups who sense of safety (and perhaps their actual security) lies in maintaining a strong group identity.
Finally, running around naked or covered in paint while getting high and burning things is not a very black or hispanic thing to do. However, it is utterly northern european in its anthropological origins.
It ain't the hanging, it's the drop.
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blackjohnnie
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hmmm?
"Finally, running around naked or covered in paint while getting high and burning things is not a very black or hispanic thing to do. However, it is utterly northern european in its anthropological origins.[/quote]
yeah, I'll start here first:
I think running around, painted, by a burning pyre is a human activity, one that you would find in almost every culture, maybe save Eskimo's...Viking culture burned things, too but what they burned often didn't belong to them.
[quote="SED"]IMO, Burning Man is so white because it was started by white people and culture begets itself. The economic question doen't hold up so well, because non-white people also have disposable income."
That's it?
That's your rebuttle to the economic question?
Of course, non white people have disposable income but jesus, we're talking statistically not absolutely. I can feel myself getting a little upset , so I'll just dissect this last piece of yours and be on my way.
"The number of black and hispanic people living primarily in mainstream or "white" American culture remains small compared to their overall populations. Also, I believe that the radical self expression encouraged by Burning Man is not culturally valued among ethnic groups who sense of safety (and perhaps their actual security) lies in maintaining a strong group identity. "
You've got to be kidding, right? I just realized everything you said is in the voice of yuppie teaching a History of White people to an ESL classs for Community Service working off a DUI charge, right? That's it, isn't?
Because you didn't mean to say that radical self expression (and what does that even mean?) is not culturally valued among ethnic groups.
What type of radical self expression does burning man encourage that nearly every culture (white and non white, which is, come on, a seriously sophmoric categorization) hasn't participated in? Uhm, I think that's the point of burning man: ritual. Effigy? Effigy may find it's European origins in Guy Fawkes but voodoo culture may have the patent. Costume/nudity--look at any indigenous culture around the world for proof. Drugs/altered perception--Prehispanic Indiginas priests drank pulque to increase their religious enthusiasm, and Peyote...enough said.
Ok. I've calmed down.
This is begining to turn into a pissing contest. Europe versus the rest of the world.
Personally, I find the racial curiousity that is burning man irrelevant and yet undeniably ethnocentric for many reasons but primarily, money.
It takes a lot of money to coordinate a camp, the travel, the costumes, the fixin's, and the time off from work. Money may not be the greatest deterrant for Burning man's pale face but if the economic statistics painted an even remote picture of equality we might be able to test your hypothesis on cultural values.
blackjohnnie.
yeah, I'll start here first:
I think running around, painted, by a burning pyre is a human activity, one that you would find in almost every culture, maybe save Eskimo's...Viking culture burned things, too but what they burned often didn't belong to them.
[quote="SED"]IMO, Burning Man is so white because it was started by white people and culture begets itself. The economic question doen't hold up so well, because non-white people also have disposable income."
That's it?
That's your rebuttle to the economic question?
Of course, non white people have disposable income but jesus, we're talking statistically not absolutely. I can feel myself getting a little upset , so I'll just dissect this last piece of yours and be on my way.
"The number of black and hispanic people living primarily in mainstream or "white" American culture remains small compared to their overall populations. Also, I believe that the radical self expression encouraged by Burning Man is not culturally valued among ethnic groups who sense of safety (and perhaps their actual security) lies in maintaining a strong group identity. "
You've got to be kidding, right? I just realized everything you said is in the voice of yuppie teaching a History of White people to an ESL classs for Community Service working off a DUI charge, right? That's it, isn't?
Because you didn't mean to say that radical self expression (and what does that even mean?) is not culturally valued among ethnic groups.
What type of radical self expression does burning man encourage that nearly every culture (white and non white, which is, come on, a seriously sophmoric categorization) hasn't participated in? Uhm, I think that's the point of burning man: ritual. Effigy? Effigy may find it's European origins in Guy Fawkes but voodoo culture may have the patent. Costume/nudity--look at any indigenous culture around the world for proof. Drugs/altered perception--Prehispanic Indiginas priests drank pulque to increase their religious enthusiasm, and Peyote...enough said.
Ok. I've calmed down.
This is begining to turn into a pissing contest. Europe versus the rest of the world.
Personally, I find the racial curiousity that is burning man irrelevant and yet undeniably ethnocentric for many reasons but primarily, money.
It takes a lot of money to coordinate a camp, the travel, the costumes, the fixin's, and the time off from work. Money may not be the greatest deterrant for Burning man's pale face but if the economic statistics painted an even remote picture of equality we might be able to test your hypothesis on cultural values.
blackjohnnie.
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blackjohnnie
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:36 am
hmmm?
"Finally, running around naked or covered in paint while getting high and burning things is not a very black or hispanic thing to do. However, it is utterly northern european in its anthropological origins.[/quote]
yeah, I'll start here first:
I think running around, painted, by a burning pyre is a human activity, one that you would find in almost every culture, maybe save Eskimo's...Viking culture burned things, too but what they burned often didn't belong to them.
[quote="SED"]IMO, Burning Man is so white because it was started by white people and culture begets itself. The economic question doen't hold up so well, because non-white people also have disposable income."
That's it?
That's your rebuttle to the economic question?
Of course, non white people have disposable income but jesus, we're talking statistically not absolutely. I can feel myself getting a little upset , so I'll just dissect this last piece of yours and be on my way.
"The number of black and hispanic people living primarily in mainstream or "white" American culture remains small compared to their overall populations. Also, I believe that the radical self expression encouraged by Burning Man is not culturally valued among ethnic groups who sense of safety (and perhaps their actual security) lies in maintaining a strong group identity. "
You've got to be kidding, right? I just realized everything you said is in the voice of yuppie teaching a History of White people to an ESL classs for Community Service working off a DUI charge, right? That's it, isn't?
Because you didn't mean to say that radical self expression (and what does that even mean?) is not culturally valued among ethnic groups.
What type of radical self expression does burning man encourage that nearly every culture (white and non white, which is, come on, a seriously sophmoric categorization) hasn't participated in? Uhm, I think that's the point of burning man: ritual. Effigy? Effigy may find it's European origins in Guy Fawkes but voodoo culture may have the patent. Costume/nudity--look at any indigenous culture around the world for proof. Drugs/altered perception--Prehispanic Indiginas priests drank pulque to increase their religious enthusiasm, and Peyote...enough said.
Ok. I've calmed down.
This is begining to turn into a pissing contest. Europe versus the rest of the world.
Personally, I find the racial curiousity that is burning man irrelevant and yet undeniably ethnocentric for many reasons but primarily, money.
It takes a lot of money to coordinate a camp, the travel, the costumes, the fixin's, and the time off from work. Money may not be the greatest deterrant for Burning man's pale face but if the economic statistics painted an even remote picture of equality we might be able to test your hypothesis on cultural values.
blackjohnnie.
yeah, I'll start here first:
I think running around, painted, by a burning pyre is a human activity, one that you would find in almost every culture, maybe save Eskimo's...Viking culture burned things, too but what they burned often didn't belong to them.
[quote="SED"]IMO, Burning Man is so white because it was started by white people and culture begets itself. The economic question doen't hold up so well, because non-white people also have disposable income."
That's it?
That's your rebuttle to the economic question?
Of course, non white people have disposable income but jesus, we're talking statistically not absolutely. I can feel myself getting a little upset , so I'll just dissect this last piece of yours and be on my way.
"The number of black and hispanic people living primarily in mainstream or "white" American culture remains small compared to their overall populations. Also, I believe that the radical self expression encouraged by Burning Man is not culturally valued among ethnic groups who sense of safety (and perhaps their actual security) lies in maintaining a strong group identity. "
You've got to be kidding, right? I just realized everything you said is in the voice of yuppie teaching a History of White people to an ESL classs for Community Service working off a DUI charge, right? That's it, isn't?
Because you didn't mean to say that radical self expression (and what does that even mean?) is not culturally valued among ethnic groups.
What type of radical self expression does burning man encourage that nearly every culture (white and non white, which is, come on, a seriously sophmoric categorization) hasn't participated in? Uhm, I think that's the point of burning man: ritual. Effigy? Effigy may find it's European origins in Guy Fawkes but voodoo culture may have the patent. Costume/nudity--look at any indigenous culture around the world for proof. Drugs/altered perception--Prehispanic Indiginas priests drank pulque to increase their religious enthusiasm, and Peyote...enough said.
Ok. I've calmed down.
This is begining to turn into a pissing contest. Europe versus the rest of the world.
Personally, I find the racial curiousity that is burning man irrelevant and yet undeniably ethnocentric for many reasons but primarily, money.
It takes a lot of money to coordinate a camp, the travel, the costumes, the fixin's, and the time off from work. Money may not be the greatest deterrant for Burning man's pale face but if the economic statistics painted an even remote picture of equality we might be able to test your hypothesis on cultural values.
blackjohnnie.
Just a couple of quick lines, as I think I mentioned some time ago on this thread, I work with a lot of Black/African-Americans (depends on who you are talking to) the majority of whom make as much or more than I do and not one has ever expressed interest in Burning Man. I don't think that economics is all there is to it.
I also think that you West Coast people worry about it too much and are way to PC for your own good. Example: diane o'thirst wrote about being scared if she looked in the mirror and her skin was white. a couple of months ago we had a 'family reunion' on the beach. My friend was sitting playing in the sand when a Black woman, actually only about 4 shades darker than me, looked at her and said "I've heard of white people but this is the first time I have ever seen one." Another girl lookd at my friend and said, in what I consider real burner PC speak "ohhh, are you an albino?". Nope blue eyes. A bit later another friend, whlie looking at us playing in the water said "You two have a great yin-yang thing going with the skin color". My point is, it does not matter, accept who comes freely and willing and don't worry about the rest. If they are here with us, don't be afraid to ask 'Do you prefer dwarf or little person, Black or African-American, the only people who annoy me asking if I am 'Native' are Indians that are trying for drink money.
By the way, I am half or less Indian but tend to look it; minus the big nose, but you should see my father. My Comache cousins used get a big kick out of my hight.
I also think that you West Coast people worry about it too much and are way to PC for your own good. Example: diane o'thirst wrote about being scared if she looked in the mirror and her skin was white. a couple of months ago we had a 'family reunion' on the beach. My friend was sitting playing in the sand when a Black woman, actually only about 4 shades darker than me, looked at her and said "I've heard of white people but this is the first time I have ever seen one." Another girl lookd at my friend and said, in what I consider real burner PC speak "ohhh, are you an albino?". Nope blue eyes. A bit later another friend, whlie looking at us playing in the water said "You two have a great yin-yang thing going with the skin color". My point is, it does not matter, accept who comes freely and willing and don't worry about the rest. If they are here with us, don't be afraid to ask 'Do you prefer dwarf or little person, Black or African-American, the only people who annoy me asking if I am 'Native' are Indians that are trying for drink money.
By the way, I am half or less Indian but tend to look it; minus the big nose, but you should see my father. My Comache cousins used get a big kick out of my hight.
I like playing with fire.
Sorry to give you such a rash, BJ. It wasn't my intent. It makes me consider that one reason I'm often misunderstood is that I place too much meaning in too small terms. An example is this: I said "the radical self expression of Burning Man is not highly valued . . . " You read it as simply radical self-expression, unqualified by its context, i.e., that of Burning Man and no other event.
I could just as easily be you being a reactionary purveyor of junior league insults--only juniors bother to insult sophomores. Freshman are too busy peeling their shells off and Seniors have better things to think about.
Or it could be me. It happens all the time. A lot of people probably think I'm some kind of bigot. I recall renovating a black owned apartment building and and scraping ages worth of old lard from the cabinets. The owner standing beside me said "Ooooooooo dat is some shee-it! Black folk sure love they grease."
Yeah, she said it just like that, out loud, black and proud. Now is she a bigot, or would you say that she's not because she's actually black and can say that., which I feel is the more bigoted attitude.
Anyway BJ, I hope I haven't riled you up all over again. This is a free exchange of ideas and I would only piss on you if you were actually on fire.
Don't forget that we 're all evolving all the time, or else going extinct. I'm evolving. It's possible that I could be very wrong about alot of things. Unfortunately, all I have learned from you is that I shouldn't put too fine a point on words that describe pretty blunt emotions.
I could just as easily be you being a reactionary purveyor of junior league insults--only juniors bother to insult sophomores. Freshman are too busy peeling their shells off and Seniors have better things to think about.
Or it could be me. It happens all the time. A lot of people probably think I'm some kind of bigot. I recall renovating a black owned apartment building and and scraping ages worth of old lard from the cabinets. The owner standing beside me said "Ooooooooo dat is some shee-it! Black folk sure love they grease."
Yeah, she said it just like that, out loud, black and proud. Now is she a bigot, or would you say that she's not because she's actually black and can say that., which I feel is the more bigoted attitude.
Anyway BJ, I hope I haven't riled you up all over again. This is a free exchange of ideas and I would only piss on you if you were actually on fire.
Don't forget that we 're all evolving all the time, or else going extinct. I'm evolving. It's possible that I could be very wrong about alot of things. Unfortunately, all I have learned from you is that I shouldn't put too fine a point on words that describe pretty blunt emotions.
It ain't the hanging, it's the drop.
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DVD Burner
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sparkletarte
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~
I thought the Man was wood-coloured.
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blackjohnnie
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Eh, I was gonna let this go but you misrepresent the truth a few times here.
1. You misquote yourself. You did not say (in your 1st post), "is not highly valued". You, in fact, said: not culturally valued (go back and look as I did).
I would say these two terms are not synomous. You could have meant not highly valued, which could mean you were intending a reading of the word culture as in high art or in that pretentious way the rich flaunt their wealth. Is that what you meant?
This is the crux of my misunderstanding, however. If you meant to use the word culture in the sense of ethnic ritual and language, then I find what you said as sad. I thought, for some idealistic foolish reason, that Burning man was different from the rest of the world and had insulated itself from such blatant ignorance and ethnocentricism.
However, I admit, I don't think you meant culture in that hatefilled way Pat Buchanon spat it out at George H. Bush's convention. After reading your response, it's clear you are not a racist--a bit of an asshole but so am I.
I think being a little bit of an asshole is good. Sometimes, a fiery reaction burns away the fat. Now we are a little clearer of each other's ideas.
Except...
2. I think you err when you say, " You read it as simply radical self-expression, unqualified by its context, i.e., that of Burning Man and no other event."
I gave examples of some of the types of radical self expression, I thought you meant: costume/nudity, burning effigy, drugs/ alternate perceptions, etc...
I gave you specific cultures that practiced these very forms of radical self expression you hinted at in your first post. If you meant something else, it would be nice to know exactly what you meant but you didn't bother to explain in your second post. You merely shuffled off my criticism as a misundertanding but replaced it with nothing.
So, I implore you, please inform me how I misunderstood your phrase, "I believe that the radical self expression encouraged by Burning Man is not culturally valued among ethnic groups who sense of safety (and perhaps their actual security) lies in maintaining a strong group identity". How am I supposed to read what you mean by "radical self expression" in any other terms or context, as you put it when in the next paragraph you say, "Finally, running around naked or covered in paint while getting high and burning things is not a very black or hispanic thing to do. However, it is utterly northern european in its anthropological origins."
How am I to read "radical self expression" as anything else other than "running around naked or covered in paint (costume/ nudity), while getting high (drugs/ alternate perceptions) and burning things (effigy)"?
When I read this, I think, my god has this person no sense of any other culture (much less Black and Hispanic cultures) than his own? No sense of history other than European culture, which you are an astute student of but you never once convince me you had a working knowledge of Indigenous cultures obliterated and broken, tossed away on reservations or hiding up the mountains of Chiapas...
Does this make you racist? No, just incredibly knaive, lazy, or insensitive.
blackjohnnie.
p.s. if you really didn't learn anything by engaging me in conversation then you are indeed lazy or a liar.
1. You misquote yourself. You did not say (in your 1st post), "is not highly valued". You, in fact, said: not culturally valued (go back and look as I did).
I would say these two terms are not synomous. You could have meant not highly valued, which could mean you were intending a reading of the word culture as in high art or in that pretentious way the rich flaunt their wealth. Is that what you meant?
This is the crux of my misunderstanding, however. If you meant to use the word culture in the sense of ethnic ritual and language, then I find what you said as sad. I thought, for some idealistic foolish reason, that Burning man was different from the rest of the world and had insulated itself from such blatant ignorance and ethnocentricism.
However, I admit, I don't think you meant culture in that hatefilled way Pat Buchanon spat it out at George H. Bush's convention. After reading your response, it's clear you are not a racist--a bit of an asshole but so am I.
I think being a little bit of an asshole is good. Sometimes, a fiery reaction burns away the fat. Now we are a little clearer of each other's ideas.
Except...
2. I think you err when you say, " You read it as simply radical self-expression, unqualified by its context, i.e., that of Burning Man and no other event."
I gave examples of some of the types of radical self expression, I thought you meant: costume/nudity, burning effigy, drugs/ alternate perceptions, etc...
I gave you specific cultures that practiced these very forms of radical self expression you hinted at in your first post. If you meant something else, it would be nice to know exactly what you meant but you didn't bother to explain in your second post. You merely shuffled off my criticism as a misundertanding but replaced it with nothing.
So, I implore you, please inform me how I misunderstood your phrase, "I believe that the radical self expression encouraged by Burning Man is not culturally valued among ethnic groups who sense of safety (and perhaps their actual security) lies in maintaining a strong group identity". How am I supposed to read what you mean by "radical self expression" in any other terms or context, as you put it when in the next paragraph you say, "Finally, running around naked or covered in paint while getting high and burning things is not a very black or hispanic thing to do. However, it is utterly northern european in its anthropological origins."
How am I to read "radical self expression" as anything else other than "running around naked or covered in paint (costume/ nudity), while getting high (drugs/ alternate perceptions) and burning things (effigy)"?
When I read this, I think, my god has this person no sense of any other culture (much less Black and Hispanic cultures) than his own? No sense of history other than European culture, which you are an astute student of but you never once convince me you had a working knowledge of Indigenous cultures obliterated and broken, tossed away on reservations or hiding up the mountains of Chiapas...
Does this make you racist? No, just incredibly knaive, lazy, or insensitive.
blackjohnnie.
p.s. if you really didn't learn anything by engaging me in conversation then you are indeed lazy or a liar.
Wow, you are kind of an asshole. We should hang out, I'm starting to like you.
Look BJ, I'm glad you don't think I'm a racist, but I'm knot knaive knor am I knasty knor, dare I say, kniggardly in my praise for knon-Euro culture.
[Hey, I gotta amuse myself somehow while the dipshits review defensive driving drivel. It beats grading these stupid summer reading reports. Hurston, Tan and Rodriguez can all bite my white ass. Wait, I'm Jewish. I'm really white am I? Or am super-white? So confused . . .]
All I meant to say that if Burning Man were a black or hispanic thing to do, you'd see more darkies and spics running around BRC bare-assed and liquored up. Now, does that make mean I'm racist or insensitive?
Seriously, I'm just calling it like I see it. And I'll admit that I don't really know what I'm talking about. The few people that do, don't seem to talk so much, and tend to get drowned out by the likes of you and me and our itchy bitchy ranty-rants.
Wanna party?
Look BJ, I'm glad you don't think I'm a racist, but I'm knot knaive knor am I knasty knor, dare I say, kniggardly in my praise for knon-Euro culture.
[Hey, I gotta amuse myself somehow while the dipshits review defensive driving drivel. It beats grading these stupid summer reading reports. Hurston, Tan and Rodriguez can all bite my white ass. Wait, I'm Jewish. I'm really white am I? Or am super-white? So confused . . .]
All I meant to say that if Burning Man were a black or hispanic thing to do, you'd see more darkies and spics running around BRC bare-assed and liquored up. Now, does that make mean I'm racist or insensitive?
Seriously, I'm just calling it like I see it. And I'll admit that I don't really know what I'm talking about. The few people that do, don't seem to talk so much, and tend to get drowned out by the likes of you and me and our itchy bitchy ranty-rants.
Wanna party?
It ain't the hanging, it's the drop.
Biggest complaint
I'm a little hesitant to post in this one but here goes. The number one reason my black friends wouldn't even consider burning man is: camping. Out of all my black friends, exactly one likes camping.
If I were to venture a guess why, it'd be two things:
1) Little exposure to camping as a fun thing to do as kids.
2) As my grandmother put it once: "Ain't nothing fun about sleeping on the ground" I view camping as an exercise in minimalism. My friends view the same exeprience as an exercise in deprivation.
And as for the running around in body paint thing, my memory is scarred by summer camp and being the only brown skinned thing in a N.H. girl scout camp and having all the other girls stop and stare at my brown nipples when I was changing into a bathing suit. Not a one had any inkling up until that moment that nipples came in any other shade than pink. I was horrified. Killed any interest I might have had in "naturalist"
If I were to venture a guess why, it'd be two things:
1) Little exposure to camping as a fun thing to do as kids.
2) As my grandmother put it once: "Ain't nothing fun about sleeping on the ground" I view camping as an exercise in minimalism. My friends view the same exeprience as an exercise in deprivation.
And as for the running around in body paint thing, my memory is scarred by summer camp and being the only brown skinned thing in a N.H. girl scout camp and having all the other girls stop and stare at my brown nipples when I was changing into a bathing suit. Not a one had any inkling up until that moment that nipples came in any other shade than pink. I was horrified. Killed any interest I might have had in "naturalist"
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Simply Joel
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Re: Biggest complaint
CadyMae wrote:I'm a little hesitant to post in this one but here goes. The number one reason my black friends wouldn't even consider burning man is: camping. Out of all my black friends, exactly one likes camping.
If I were to venture a guess why, it'd be two things:
1) Little exposure to camping as a fun thing to do as kids.
2) As my grandmother put it once: "Ain't nothing fun about sleeping on the ground" I view camping as an exercise in minimalism. My friends view the same exeprience as an exercise in deprivation.
And as for the running around in body paint thing, my memory is scarred by summer camp and being the only brown skinned thing in a N.H. girl scout camp and having all the other girls stop and stare at my brown nipples when I was changing into a bathing suit. Not a one had any inkling up until that moment that nipples came in any other shade than pink. I was horrified. Killed any interest I might have had in "naturalist"
ah, a voice of experience... nicely refreshing.
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blackjohnnie
- Posts: 14
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SED,
Yeah, you're right. I like to argue, I don't see it as negative because while I do take it personally, I take it as a personal challenge than insult, so I have fun.
Party, my friend? Absolutely. Prometheatrics camp at 9:30 and esplanade.
That's right. The esplanade. Our first time. As were two days away from the playa, baby, I get more and more filled with love. Thank you, my friend for engaging me and I hope I never upset you too much. You come over and we'll get high, high, high or drunk, drunk, drunk and laugh our ranty bitchy asses off.
Your funny SED, you spell not with a k, nor with a k, and nasty with a k...
KKK, was that an accident or are you trying to tell blackjohnnie to back off?
9days.
Yeah, you're right. I like to argue, I don't see it as negative because while I do take it personally, I take it as a personal challenge than insult, so I have fun.
Party, my friend? Absolutely. Prometheatrics camp at 9:30 and esplanade.
That's right. The esplanade. Our first time. As were two days away from the playa, baby, I get more and more filled with love. Thank you, my friend for engaging me and I hope I never upset you too much. You come over and we'll get high, high, high or drunk, drunk, drunk and laugh our ranty bitchy asses off.
Your funny SED, you spell not with a k, nor with a k, and nasty with a k...
KKK, was that an accident or are you trying to tell blackjohnnie to back off?
9days.
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theCryptofishist
- Posts: 40312
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- Location: In Exile
Re: Biggest complaint
CadyMaeCadyMae wrote:I'm a little hesitant to post in this one but here goes. The number one reason my black friends wouldn't even consider burning man is: camping. Out of all my black friends, exactly one likes camping.
If I were to venture a guess why, it'd be two things:
1) Little exposure to camping as a fun thing to do as kids.
2) As my grandmother put it once: "Ain't nothing fun about sleeping on the ground" I view camping as an exercise in minimalism. My friends view the same exeprience as an exercise in deprivation.
And as for the running around in body paint thing, my memory is scarred by summer camp and being the only brown skinned thing in a N.H. girl scout camp and having all the other girls stop and stare at my brown nipples when I was changing into a bathing suit. Not a one had any inkling up until that moment that nipples came in any other shade than pink. I was horrified. Killed any interest I might have had in "naturalist"
Thank you for this post. It helps a lot. There is nothing that turns that light on in my head so quickly as one of those visceral anecdotes where you go: "Oh my god yes!" If you have more to say on this topic, go ahead, we need to get somewhere beyond speculative and into nitty-gritt.
And if I had been in that girl scout troupe I probably would have stared too, although maybe not openly. We all get really bad information as to the real variety that bodies come in. And having seen a whole lot more over the past few years, I'm much less uptight about having a pale, overweight, hairy aging body. But them I'm the one who advised AntiM to make herself a fake breast with sparkles on it for her post masectomy playa pleasure. Just another sort of body we don't see much of.
And my family definately camped for pleasure when I was growing up. I was reading a history of the land and this country and what he said about the way the national parks started--more as a place for upper class people to hunt big game and keep out the poor and minorities and thier subsistance hunting--may feed into that as well. I'm not expressing myself well, but guess I'd rather have a half-baked interesting insight than leave a possible clue out.
Incidently, Larry Harvey was asked this on the radio yesterday--his thought is that minorities still tend to live in extended families and intact nieghborhoods (can I say "intacter"?). I thought that's worth throwing in.
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blackjohnnie
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Hmmm?
Tend to live in extended families and in tact neighborhoods.
I wonder what he would say, Bel Aire is? I wonder what he would say, the Hamptons are? Those are in tact neighborhoods and I wonder, if they live in extended families, I'm assuming they have enough rooms.
I would have loved to hear his elucidation on his response. I think it's interesting that economic factors as a cause are so summarily dismissed.
I suppose it stems from guilt and fear. A fear of a growing knowledge of American history in the populace. Slowly, the history books are losing their mythic heros and their stories i.e. Columbus, Andrew Jackson, and Lincoln, too (after all he said, "paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.”) to see human beings all well intentioned and loyal to their group. Group being whomever you associate yourself with...
I would say, looking at American history and European History in the act of colonization is rather ugly across the board. The Aztecs not only subjugated their victims to slave labor they sacrificed hundreds of them in bloody sluiced temples. In one perspective, you could say the Spanish were liberators to the tens of oppressed cultures the Aztecs enslaved.
It's a tough thing. At some point, you move beyond it recognizing the past and understanding the hand up, the head start, all of the really cool things about America are not only due to the hardwork and sacrifices of those who came before us but also the criminal and immoral deeds as well.
It's easier said than done but the innocent must emotionally unyoke themselves from a past they may benefit from but had no hand in only through the dilligence of their own work and the attempt to create opportunities for those opposite their circumstances and the oppressed...they must quit execuses and blame and assume the challenges as opportunities for greater glory to revel in their success.
At least, I try to beleive that as best and often as I can.
Oh, and isn't a little silly to ALWAYS value experience over the conceptual?
I mean, can't one assume that a well reasoned argument must stem from both experience and the hypothetical without having to drag out anectdotal evidence stating, well all my black friends blah, blah, blah...
Not to say it's illigetimate but come on, it's ONE story about a single persons experience, let's not start sucking each other dicks just yet. We haven't found the rosetta stone, it's a piece, yes but...
or maybe I should stop analyzing and actually share with you my stories of camping in Seattle with my friend Fadil but I feel that while it might enterain, I would be loathe to exploit it as proof of anything other than the circumstances of our lives at that moment in time.
love,
blackjohnnie.
Tend to live in extended families and in tact neighborhoods.
I wonder what he would say, Bel Aire is? I wonder what he would say, the Hamptons are? Those are in tact neighborhoods and I wonder, if they live in extended families, I'm assuming they have enough rooms.
I would have loved to hear his elucidation on his response. I think it's interesting that economic factors as a cause are so summarily dismissed.
I suppose it stems from guilt and fear. A fear of a growing knowledge of American history in the populace. Slowly, the history books are losing their mythic heros and their stories i.e. Columbus, Andrew Jackson, and Lincoln, too (after all he said, "paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.”) to see human beings all well intentioned and loyal to their group. Group being whomever you associate yourself with...
I would say, looking at American history and European History in the act of colonization is rather ugly across the board. The Aztecs not only subjugated their victims to slave labor they sacrificed hundreds of them in bloody sluiced temples. In one perspective, you could say the Spanish were liberators to the tens of oppressed cultures the Aztecs enslaved.
It's a tough thing. At some point, you move beyond it recognizing the past and understanding the hand up, the head start, all of the really cool things about America are not only due to the hardwork and sacrifices of those who came before us but also the criminal and immoral deeds as well.
It's easier said than done but the innocent must emotionally unyoke themselves from a past they may benefit from but had no hand in only through the dilligence of their own work and the attempt to create opportunities for those opposite their circumstances and the oppressed...they must quit execuses and blame and assume the challenges as opportunities for greater glory to revel in their success.
At least, I try to beleive that as best and often as I can.
Oh, and isn't a little silly to ALWAYS value experience over the conceptual?
I mean, can't one assume that a well reasoned argument must stem from both experience and the hypothetical without having to drag out anectdotal evidence stating, well all my black friends blah, blah, blah...
Not to say it's illigetimate but come on, it's ONE story about a single persons experience, let's not start sucking each other dicks just yet. We haven't found the rosetta stone, it's a piece, yes but...
or maybe I should stop analyzing and actually share with you my stories of camping in Seattle with my friend Fadil but I feel that while it might enterain, I would be loathe to exploit it as proof of anything other than the circumstances of our lives at that moment in time.
love,
blackjohnnie.
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theCryptofishist
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Hm. And sometimes I get dinged for being too general.
I thought what Larry said was interesting, but incomplete. I also forgot an important component was that he felt--perhaps incorrectly--that minorities didn't have to go to the desert to experience communiy. (I even thought he was perhaps a little disengenous. The interview was on KQED a public radio station in San Francisco if someone wanted to follow up on it. He did frame it in broader terms than I reported. I was also too lazy to split that into two posts--my bad.) I think this is a complex question and worth exploring on multiple levels. Broad historical perspectives mixed in with specific gut reactions. I also felt really bad that CadyMae apparently felt that her remarks wouldn't be recieved as appropriate, and I wanted to say that they were helpful for me. Not THE explination, but an explination; she herself said she was guessing in part.
I will admit that I grew up in a racist society and carry the taint. I am not an ideological racist. My best guess is that 95% or more of the white americans who attend Burning Man either wouldn't care if more people of color attended or would welcome them. It would not surprize me, none the less, that a good number of them still manage to do or say things that end up discouraging persons of color from trying. I think that it's not a deliberate hostility that results in this--but an awkwardness in knowing how to appropriately break down the barriers that exist. One reason I participate in this discussion is to try and learn more, to try to deprogram myself from the knee-jerk cultural responces.
I find that direct stories like CadyMae's give me an "aha" that helps to break down the meaning of the "other" that black/white relations often have. I've been a 9-year old girl and felt embarassed about my body in front of my peers. Yes, even if we just say that I grew up in California and she grew up in Conneticut we're talking about different childhoods, before we get to class, race, family size, or house layout. But that seems like a visceral, primal experience that we do have in common.
On the other hand, it wouldn't surprize me that some African Americans are nervous about attending an event that they must drive through the rural west to reach. My guess is that the reasons are simple and complicated.
I thought what Larry said was interesting, but incomplete. I also forgot an important component was that he felt--perhaps incorrectly--that minorities didn't have to go to the desert to experience communiy. (I even thought he was perhaps a little disengenous. The interview was on KQED a public radio station in San Francisco if someone wanted to follow up on it. He did frame it in broader terms than I reported. I was also too lazy to split that into two posts--my bad.) I think this is a complex question and worth exploring on multiple levels. Broad historical perspectives mixed in with specific gut reactions. I also felt really bad that CadyMae apparently felt that her remarks wouldn't be recieved as appropriate, and I wanted to say that they were helpful for me. Not THE explination, but an explination; she herself said she was guessing in part.
I will admit that I grew up in a racist society and carry the taint. I am not an ideological racist. My best guess is that 95% or more of the white americans who attend Burning Man either wouldn't care if more people of color attended or would welcome them. It would not surprize me, none the less, that a good number of them still manage to do or say things that end up discouraging persons of color from trying. I think that it's not a deliberate hostility that results in this--but an awkwardness in knowing how to appropriately break down the barriers that exist. One reason I participate in this discussion is to try and learn more, to try to deprogram myself from the knee-jerk cultural responces.
I find that direct stories like CadyMae's give me an "aha" that helps to break down the meaning of the "other" that black/white relations often have. I've been a 9-year old girl and felt embarassed about my body in front of my peers. Yes, even if we just say that I grew up in California and she grew up in Conneticut we're talking about different childhoods, before we get to class, race, family size, or house layout. But that seems like a visceral, primal experience that we do have in common.
On the other hand, it wouldn't surprize me that some African Americans are nervous about attending an event that they must drive through the rural west to reach. My guess is that the reasons are simple and complicated.