Sexual Violence

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:10 am

[quote="JP / Chimp"] I mean yeah we can beat these MFs into a pulp and so on but at some point we have to try to understand why shit like this goes down - what is it about our everday society that facilitates acts of extreme perversion or sociopathic behaviour? If Burners can shed some light on this then hey, maybe we can take the knowledge we attain back to the wider world - I am not sure of my point here but I think this is really the most poignant thread I have seen on the Eplaya and perhaps we can genuinely achieve some kind of consensus through this discussion. [quote]

try thinking about it this way - pediphelia and the tendency towards sexual violence are incurable forms of mental illness. think sociopathic behavior, or worse, the poor shmucks who know what they're doing is wrong, but are powerless to stop. it's no different than being an alchoholic in terms of behaior mod - there is no cure.

having said that, i'm going to make a statement that will most certainly be unpopular, but since this isn't a popularity contest, here goes: i believe that people who damage themselves and others with this kind of behavior, having broken the social contract, don't deserve to be a part of our society. kill em off, ship em to some godforsaken island, i don't really care. what's important is that these sick fucks don't hurt anyone else, because then the cycle of abuse keeps rolling merrily along.

it's just one of those things, it's no one's fault ( except for frat boys and the catholic church ) . it's an ugly world we live in. only our actions can make it beautiful.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:09 am

If any adult damaged any child I knew by abusing them I would gladly gouge the sick fuck's eyes out and feed him his own limbs

one of my best friends was abused as a kid by his uncle - he never ever recovered and smack is an evil drug

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:23 am

princess strych-9 wrote: kill em off, ship em to some godforsaken island, i don't really care. what's important is that these sick fucks don't hurt anyone else, because then the cycle of abuse keeps rolling merrily along.

Doesn't offend me at all. I advocate capital punishment and screw today's definitions of "cruel and unusual" punishment. If they raped and killed someone, sodomize them with a overly large object til' they die. This not only removes a "damaged" individual, but puts a greater sense of fear into others contemplating the same acts.

Yes, it MIGHT be possible to "treat" the individual until they are better. Problem is a very small percentage of habitual murders, rapists, and hardened criminals will become useful members of society with treatment. This results in many more victims so that a minor percentage can live a normal life. Or our taxes paying for a person to live their whole life behind bars, which isn't really a life anyway. I've always thought that anyone given a life sentence should simply be killed. They no longer serve a purpose in today's society.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:34 am

Capital Punishment hey?

Hmmm, personally unfortunately I reckon CP is bullshit folks, despite what I may choose to do to an individual - I take the consequences of those actions upon myself - On the other hand giving the state legal power over life and death is always going to be a tenable proposition at best.

I mean yeah 'Some people should die, thats just unconscious knowledge' (Jane's Addiction - Pigs In Zen) but I don't want the state to have that power really. The big problem with Capital punishment is that innocent people wind up dead and even if the proportion of those people falsely convicted is low, any innocent killed wrongly is a terrible injustice to humanity. Also CP is abused by those in power to start knocking off radicals and free thinkers Hell look at the framing of someone like Hurricane Carter or the beating of Rodney King, sorry I know I will get the 'lefty' crap again for this but well, y'know these kind of incidents do happen, the 'framing' of individuals could be taken even further.

I dunno' - I realise you cats have the death penalty, I would be interested to know the recent figures of those later proved 'not guilty' who went to the chair - I am not sure CP has any place in a civilised society - as someone else pointed out in some parts of the world even now this can mean being buried in sand and having people throw rocks at your head until it caves in, for - adultry, or even percieved adultry, - and what about the american witchunts so brilliantly portrayed in Jonson's classic play 'The Crucible'.

There are no easy answers but advocation of CP is a very dangerous thing.

"They're locking them up today, they're throwing away the key. I wonder who it will be tommorrow, you or me" Love - Maybe The People Would Be The Times Or Between Clark And Hillsdale - 'Forever Changes'

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:43 am

JP / Chimp wrote:Capital Punishment hey?

Hmmm, personally unfortunately I reckon CP is bullshit folks, despite what I may choose to do to an individual - I take the consequences of those actions upon myself - On the other hand giving the state legal power over life and death is always going to be a tenable proposition at best.

I mean yeah 'Some peole should die, thats just unconscious knowledge' (Jane's Addiction - Pigs In Zen) but I don't want the state to have that power really. The big problem with Capital punishment is that innocent people wind up dead and even if the proportion of those people falsely convicted is low, any innocent killed wrongly is a terrible injustice to humanity. Also CP is abused by those in power to start knocking off radicals and free thinkers Hell look at the framing of someone like Hurricane Carter or the beating of Rodney King, sorry I know I will get the 'lefty' crap again for this but well, y'know these kind of incidents do happen, the 'framing' of individuals could be taken even further.

I dunno' - I realise you cats have the death penalty, I would be interested to know the recent figures of those later proved 'not guilty' who went to the chair - I am not sure CP has any place in a civilised society - as someone else pointed out in some parts of the world even now this can mean being buried in sand and having people throw rocks at your head until it caves in, for - adultry, or even percieved adultry, - and what about the american witchunts so brilliantly portrayed in Jonson's crucible.

There are no easy ansewrs but advocation of CP is a very dangerous thing.

"They're locking them up today, they're throwing away the key. I wonder who it will be tommorrow, you or me" Love - Maybe The People Would Be The Times Or Between Clark And Hillsdale - 'Forever Changes'

as much as i'd like to take every short-eyed motherfucker and fry his ass, i have to agree with you on this one. when we start persecuting indiscrimantely, it can only lead to trouble. just ask leonard peltier.

the biggest problem as i see it, is who the state deems fit for punishment. sure, many people on death row earned that place rightfully ( and i have no idea what the stats are or i'd be reeling them off right now ) there's always going to be mistakes.

what i find truly staggering is the amount of money it takes our country to incarcerate and or kill people.

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:47 am

Well said, JP/Chimp and princess strych-9. I agree.

Oh, and there's the fact that no deterrent effect has ever been shown...

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:51 am

Flux wrote:Well said, JP/Chimp and princess strych-9. I agree.

Oh, and there's the fact that no deterrent effect has ever been shown...

americans have got to be the most stupid people on the planet. we already proven beyond measure that prohibition doesn't work. yet we do go on....

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:08 am

JP / Chimp wrote: On the other hand giving the state legal power over life and death is always going to be a tenable proposition at best.

They already do. What exactly do you think our military is? Why our police carry firearms? The only thing CP does is allow them the ability to kill those that deserve it, as opposed to killing for political/economic reasons.

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:15 am

princess strych-9 wrote:americans have got to be the most stupid people on the planet

Reminds me of this one:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.

Sounds familiar, no?

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:19 am

Flux wrote:Well said, JP/Chimp and princess strych-9. I agree.

Oh, and there's the fact that no deterrent effect has ever been shown...

That because of the way we do things around here. If I go out and kill 10 people- I might be put on death row. In the meantime, I get oodles of appeals and if it ever does happen- it will be relatively painless. As opposed to the deaths of the 10 people I killed.

Look at the crime rates of foreign cities where lashings and such are administered. You find a very definate detterent effect.

I see where you guys are coming from. Mistakes happen, capital punishment is costly (due to our legal system), and there is no apparent deterrent value. Mistakes will always happen, but the other two are issues due to the way we run things. The anti-CP religious types will always throw monkey wrenches into the machinery in an attempt to make the last two issues happen.

I simply see no reason to keep someone locked up at high $$ for their entire life. I also feel that habitual criminals will most likely NOT change, and are a danger to society. Remove them as they are as deadly a threat as removing a dangerous animal or environmental condition.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:29 am

Rob the Wop wrote:...capital punishment is costly (due to our legal system), and there is no apparent deterrent value.

That's because we're not doing it right.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:35 am

Kinetic wrote:
Lydia Love wrote:I myself think a little mystery is nice.
Couldn't agree more.

I hope you don't mean mystery as in "I thought that was what you meant."

Lydia Love · Post by **Lydia Love** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:49 am

I hope you don't mean mystery as in "I thought that was what you meant."

Huh?

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:51 am

Ha!

Hey Rob, so you advocate public flogging do you, Jesus fucking christ man perhaps you should get yourself a Tardis and see if you would be any better off in the dark ages.

To quote you - "Mistakes Happen" - tell that to the family of an innocent who has just been fried to death - "relatively painless" not to the fucking relatives of innocent people it isn't mister

"What do you think our military is?" Duh, its the military I guess, y'know a group of people who are involved in 'military' action.

"Why do you think our police carry guns" Because all US civilians are allowed to carry fucking guns, there has to be an equal playing field, no?

"The only thing CP does is allow them the ability to kill those that deserve it, as opposed to killing for political/economic reasons."

What? I am not sure I even understand this sentence, the point we are making is that it can be used for precisely those reasons by unscrupulous goverments with hidden agendas (ring any bells) and er, killing for political / economic reasons, the US has a pretty good history of doing that in the field of so called 'military' action hey? Oh, am I gonna be ranted at for saying something controversial, again? Lets just see what happens in Iraq, Fuck knows what either Britain or America is hoping will happen out there, a right fucking Pandoras Box methinks.

"I'm gonna get my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" - Morrison

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:56 am

just ask leonard peltier

I guess we disagree on this one. There was nothing indiscriminate about Peltier's trial and conviction. He's a murderer. By every account including his own (during somewhat recent prison interviews) he did what he was convicted of doing. One thing to have two FBI wounded for slinking onto your private property with no warrant and quite another to have said wonded individuals shot execution style a few hours later. Peltier was convicted of the latter.

I'll be the first to state that the circumstances were pure bullshit and the government and its agents had no fucking business playing cowboys and indians with AIM.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:48 am

Rob the Wop wrote:Look at the crime rates of foreign cities where lashings and such are administered. You find a very definate detterent effect.

Some of whom are worthy of continuous and protacted bombing and occupation. WHEEE!

>> Mistakes happen, capital punishment is costly (due to our legal system), and there is no apparent deterrent value. Mistakes will always happen, but the other two are issues due to the way we run things.

You'll be less sanguine about mistakes when you are mistakenly arrested. It happens a lot. That's why the State of Illinois has suspended executions. With a 1% rate of error, that is one innocent person killed for every 99 guilty people. Is it worth it? I don't think so. Texas has executed more than a 1000 people. That is <perhaps> 10 innocent deaths. Also (although not a CP case it is illustrative) what about the the people released in Texas recently because it turns out an undercover cop was lying to boost his arrest/conviction record.

>>I simply see no reason to keep someone locked up at high $$ for their entire life. I also feel that habitual criminals will most likely NOT change, and are a danger to society. Remove them as they are as deadly a threat as removing a dangerous animal or environmental condition.

I like the thought of Charles Manso rotting in jail. Jeffery Dahmer was killed by another inmate. Killing people off is too easy, keep 'em alive and let 'em squirm.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:13 am

JP / Chimp wrote: To quote you - "Mistakes Happen" - tell that to the family of an innocent who has just been fried to death - "relatively painless" not to the fucking relatives of innocent people it isn't mister

Tell that to the second, third, fourth, etc. victim of a killer let loose. More deaths happen from habitual murderers than mistaken death row killings. I joined the military on the basis of the "greater good" prinicipal (mistakenly BTW- most decisions in the military are pretty fucking stupid). Meaning if one mistaken death can prevent 20 innocent deaths, than hell yes. And these innocent folks you think are pure, while they didn't do the deed in question- they are generally considered suspects based on prior records. That's way different from the truely innocent victims of serial killers or rapists. Or how about the rate of murder and rape in prison? Keep em' alive so that they can continue the same patterns of behavior?

I see things differently than you. Deal with it. Hug some guy raping your wife or killing your kids if you want- I'd rather put a bullet in them.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:56 am

Rob the Wop wrote:
JP / Chimp wrote: I see things differently than you. Deal with it. Hug some guy raping your wife or killing your kids if you want- I'd rather put a bullet in them.

I try to avoid violence but in the scenario quoted above I would likely do the exact same thing.

That's scary to think about, but worth the time to do so.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:36 pm

I see things differently than you. Deal with it. Hug some guy raping your wife or killing your kids if you want- I'd rather put a bullet in them.

strawman allert! strawman allert! strawman allert!

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:51 pm

stuart scanlon wrote:
I see things differently than you. Deal with it. Hug some guy raping your wife or killing your kids if you want- I'd rather put a bullet in them.
strawman allert! strawman allert! strawman allert!

Actually, that was more like sarcasm. Strawman arguments builds the premises around a differing, yet seeming similiar, theme. It's why I seperated the argument from the side note in different paragraphs.

Besides, the whole CP discussion is getting tiresome to me. I'm in favor, others aren't. Me bitching won't change anyone's mind, and I won't be changing my mind anytime soon.

<i>Though the public flogging political campaign is coming along nicely.</i>

Runnerr0 · Post by **Runnerr0** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:17 pm

I had a bad experience at camp Santa something.... could have been the drugs but I really felt like I was in a bad situation. I am a little guy so when these four guys came up to me I was a little intimated. I should have gone with the feeling and left the camp. Everyone please TRUST your intuition. Well they were trying to feed me drinks and keep referring to me as axe "caws they were going to grind me into a stump". It was mostly verbal harassment but I did not let it escalate... I slipped away wandering into the night. We all gotta watch out..... There’s predators in the water.

RealityEscapesYou · Post by **RealityEscapesYou** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:16 pm

Just because it's verbal doesn't mean it's not scary
or abusive.

I saw a lot of people use tone to get GUILT sex, food,
water, etc this year. go figure. Manipulation is a
survival skill?

Run. Run. Walk. Peddle. Prance. Tip-toe. Tap-dance as far away
from these people as possible. They're assholes in human
clothing.

Stormy, I don't know you but I like what you've said in
this thread over and over again amongst a lot of shitheads.
THANK YOU.

A woman's survival guide would be helpful, but would or could
it be honest? It would have to be unofficial right?

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:20 pm

RealityEscapesYou wrote:A woman's survival guide would be helpful, but would or could it be honest? It would have to be unofficial right?

You could petition the org to do something like that, but I don't think that they would go for it (nor, for various reasons, do I think that they should). However, you or a group could do something like that yourself and be as honest as you want to be. It could be along the lines of the participant-produced How to Get Laid at Burning Man -- How Not to Get Raped at Burning Man, or something like that.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:30 pm

You could petition the org to do something like that, but I don't think that they would go for it...

Careful, careful...

However, you or a group could do something like that yourself and be as honest as you want to be.

That's more like it.

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:50 am

princess strych-9 wrote: try thinking about it this way - pediphelia and the tendency towards sexual violence are incurable forms of mental illness. think sociopathic behavior, or worse, the poor shmucks who know what they're doing is wrong, but are powerless to stop. it's no different than being an alchoholic in terms of behaior mod - there is no cure.

having said that, i'm going to make a statement that will most certainly be unpopular, but since this isn't a popularity contest, here goes: i believe that people who damage themselves and others with this kind of behavior, having broken the social contract, don't deserve to be a part of our society. kill em off, ship em to some godforsaken island, i don't really care. what's important is that these sick fucks don't hurt anyone else, because then the cycle of abuse keeps rolling merrily along.

*Sigh* I've definitely had thoughts along the lines of the latter paragraph.

The distinction between sociopaths and most sex offender is that "anti-social" behavior, a lack of conscience, is thought to be a born trait, while most sex offenders became violent through being subjected to violence themselves. As someone stated that their friend never got over being abused, I think most people don't, such as sex offenders who start as victims and seek power through victimizing others. Unfortunately our society seems more willing to spend money on incarcerating criminals than dealing with root causes of violence and crime. Our 2 to 4 year political office terms encourage short term results rather long term ones.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:21 am

Stormy wrote:
princess strych-9 wrote: try thinking about it this way - pediphelia and the tendency towards sexual violence are incurable forms of mental illness. think sociopathic behavior, or worse, the poor shmucks who know what they're doing is wrong, but are powerless to stop. it's no different than being an alchoholic in terms of behaior mod - there is no cure.

having said that, i'm going to make a statement that will most certainly be unpopular, but since this isn't a popularity contest, here goes: i believe that people who damage themselves and others with this kind of behavior, having broken the social contract, don't deserve to be a part of our society. kill em off, ship em to some godforsaken island, i don't really care. what's important is that these sick fucks don't hurt anyone else, because then the cycle of abuse keeps rolling merrily along.
*Sigh* I've definitely had thoughts along the lines of the latter paragraph.

The distinction between sociopaths and most sex offender is that "anti-social" behavior, a lack of conscience, is thought to be a born trait, while most sex offenders became violent through being subjected to violence themselves. As someone stated that their friend never got over being abused, I think most people don't, such as sex offenders who start as victims and seek power through victimizing others. Unfortunately our society seems more willing to spend money on incarcerating criminals than dealing with root causes of violence and crime. Our 2 to 4 year political office terms encourage short term results rather long term ones.

i couldn't agree more. i think i was referring to habitual violent sex offenders - not that many of them were'nt abused themselves.

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:27 am

well - you may have covered this but I believe that pediphiles are considered 100% uncurable even by bleeding heart standards - were as some other sex offenders can be rehabilated. (sp?)

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:36 am

PetsUntilEaten wrote:well - you may have covered this but I believe that pediphiles are considered 100% uncurable even by bleeding heart standards - were as some other sex offenders can be rehabilated. (sp?)

yes, that was what i was trying to say, too.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:36 am

I Don't think the sexualisation of children by the music industry and mass media helps, I am not saying that in itself causes or encourages pedophlia which I think is a mental disorder - but it must to some degree blur the boundaries for people who are borderline mentally ill. It happens all the time, freaks killing and raping kids - I don't know - I am not that well informed but if we are going to talk about a Jungian unconscious, or some sort of karmic law that links individuals to a greater whole (as some have on this website, I realise it isn't expressed terribly well here) than can we see these abberations in our society as a sickness that affects us all via a process of cause and effect, I don't know - like they represent some kind of malignant cancer that is perhaps self imposed by a certain unified psychological ar spiritual deficiency we suffer as a species.

If you look at our effect as a species on the physical world (there are around 26,000 Lions left in Africa compared with 250,000 ten years ago, most are harbouring a feline form of AIDS - brink of fucking extinction, fact) we are absolutely fucking it up. Is this in some way diminishing our group 'soul' if you like, making us spiritually sick and in some cases venal - What I am trying to say (badly) is - are these kind of crimes a symptom of a disordered society that is breaking down and that has in terms of the earth ('the mother' if you like) "Ripped her and bit her and tied her with fences, dragged her down / Morrison" - are we attacking our own collective soul in some very real way by raping the physical world of it's resources and are the abberations and perversions, I believe we increasingly see in so called 'civilised society', a MANIFESTATION of that.

I don't know, do you see what I am trying to get at?

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:56 am

JP / Chimp wrote:I Don't think the sexualisation of children by the music industry and mass media helps, I am not saying that in itself causes or encourages pedophlia which I think is a mental disorder - but it must to some degree blur the boundaries for people who are borderline mentally ill. It happens all the time, freaks killing and raping kids - I don't know - I am not that well informed but if we are going to talk about a Jungian unconscious, or some sort of karmic law that links individuals to a greater whole (as some have on this website, I realise it isn't expressed terribly well here) than can we see these abberations in our society as a sickness that affects us all via a process of cause and effect, I don't know - like they represent some kind of malignant cancer that is perhaps self imposed by a certain unified psychological ar spiritual deficiency we suffer as a species.

If you look at our effect as a species on the physical world (there are around 26,000 Lions left in Africa compared with 250,000 ten years ago, most are harbouring a feline form of AIDS - brink of fucking extinction, fact) we are absolutely fucking it up. Is this in some way diminishing our group 'soul' if you like, making us spiritually sick and in some cases venal - What I am trying to say (badly) is - are these kind of crimes a symptom of a disordered society that is breaking down and that has in terms of the earth ('the mother' if you like) "Ripped her and bit her and tied her with fences, dragged her down / Morrison" - are we attacking our own collective soul in some very real way by raping the physical world of it's resources and are the abberations and perversions, I believe we increasingly see in so called 'civilised society', a MANIFESTATION of that.

I don't know, do you see what I am trying to get at?

sure. but it's important to remember that it's a two-way street. children are sexual beings - most people don't want to view them as such, for obvious reason, and we end up not teaching them the things they should know about their own sexuality, like how to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy touching and that adults and other children alike need permission to touch them. not making that distinction early on causes quite a bit of blurriness about sex, which often directly or indirectly leads to sexual abuse.

Sexual Violence

Its not just gerlies that have to watch out...

There's Alot of verbal stuff