theme authorship

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:34 pm

After reading blyslv's post I'm starting to have a slight change of opinion. It hasn't changed all that much...but it's still a change.

The way it was first described, the theme committee sounded like a clusterfuck waiting to happen.

x why z · Post by **x why z** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:25 pm

Again, committees were never part of it. Burners posting ideas to the BM community, then the community making their preference known through a vote-- that was the idea.

I'm not a network specialist, nor a statistician, but it seems like it could work something like this:

If someone has a theme idea they would like considered, then they submit it to a pool of other submissions before a certain deadline. Then, through an automated controller, each time somebody logs into the eplaya the top of the page shows a random sampling of say 10 theme options, and the person chooses five (this could be linked with user id's to keep a few people from making all the votes). After say, 200 inclusions in a list, if a given idea hasn't hit a 50% selection rate, then it gets dropped. As the pool shrinks, the eplaya page shows fewer, like six and the person choses three, and the number of inclusions or exclusions required increases to, say, 400 inclusions, etc, until we are down to two theme ideas.

The system seems scalable for however many submissions are posted.

This is just a rough stab, but as long as the whole community knew that this was the process then it seems reasonable... ... ?

TestesInSac · Post by **TestesInSac** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:20 pm

x why z wrote:Again, committees were never part of it. Burners posting ideas to the BM community, then the community making their preference known through a vote-- that was the idea.

I'm not a network specialist, nor a statistician, but it seems like it could work something like this:

If someone has a theme idea they would like considered, then they submit it to a pool of other submissions before a certain deadline. Then, through an automated controller, each time somebody logs into the eplaya the top of the page shows a random sampling of say 10 theme options, and the person chooses five (this could be linked with user id's to keep a few people from making all the votes). After say, 200 inclusions in a list, if a given idea hasn't hit a 50% selection rate, then it gets dropped. As the pool shrinks, the eplaya page shows fewer, like six and the person choses three, and the number of inclusions or exclusions required increases to, say, 400 inclusions, etc, until we are down to two theme ideas.

The system seems scalable for however many submissions are posted.

This is just a rough stab, but as long as the whole community knew that this was the process then it seems reasonable... ... ?

Scenario:
1) A total of 100 theme ideas are introduced before the deadline.
2) Each idea is as likely to be picked by any given eplayan as the next. I call it the "Herding Eplayans" principle.
3) N eplayans vote on 5 ideas each (initially).

It's possible in this scenario to have any given idea garner only 20% of voting eplayans.

A way around this is to initually restrict the pool of theme candidates such that your chances are good of having at least one idea get 50%, but you might have to restrict the pool pretty tightly.

Starting to sound like a bit of hassle to me.

III · Post by **III** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:24 pm

scenario:

you come up with a great plan for democratically arriving at the ideally preferred theme of the 10% of people who acually bother to vote. larry doesn't much care whether you want a vote on the theme or not. he ignores it, and comes up with his own, anyway. you feel like there might have been better ways to spend your time.

TestesInSac · Post by **TestesInSac** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:28 pm

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:37 pm

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:56 pm

<HOWLing!>

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:01 pm

BM is Larry's script and he can write it anyway he wants.

Resistance is futile.

Lydia Love · Post by **Lydia Love** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:03 pm

BM is Larry's script and he can write it anyway he wants.

He'd better be allowing for *my* improvisations.

Resistance is futile.

Yikes.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:09 pm

I mean come on people, Larry's done it his way for what, 17 years now?
Why would he change now? He's already spelled it out that he has a vision for what he calls Phases 3 and 4, and everything he does dovetails in to that vision, including the theme.

I'm thinking that if anyone wants to change the theme by committee, they need to call on St. Jude, the patron saint of desperate or lost causes!

http://www.catholic-pages.com/saints/st_jude.asp

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:30 pm

Kinetic wrote:I mean come on people, Larry's done it his way for what, 17 years now?
Why would he change now? He's already spelled it out that he has a vision for what he calls Phases 3 and 4, and everything he does dovetails in to that vision, including the theme.

I'm thinking that if anyone wants to change the theme by committee, they need to call on St. Jude, the patron saint of desperate or lost causes!

http://www.catholic-pages.com/saints/st_jude.asp

good onya, baby. we'll turn you into a catholic, yet!

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:41 pm

I say my Catholic prayers to Saint Dymphna.

Patron saint of.... well, you just gotta 'Google' her a bit.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:47 pm

BM is Larry's script and he can write it anyway he wants.

I'd venture to say that while Larry may write the treatment, we're the screenwritiers.

And you'd better not be dissin' Jude--he's my patron saint for sure.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:53 pm

Ivy wrote:
BM is Larry's script and he can write it anyway he wants.
I'd venture to say that while Larry may write the treatment, we're the screenwritiers.

And you'd better not be dissin' Jude--he's my patron saint for sure.

Remember I'm doing that Catholicism exploration trip right now...and I find it strange that there are hospitals named after him...I mean you go in to be healed and the name the place after the Saint of lost causes....I'm a little confused by it.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:57 pm

Bob wrote:> I’d love to hear everybody’s thoughts on this...

Really?

I think you're tweakin, man.

sorry bob. my fault.

i guess one barrel of meth was enuf........

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:03 pm

I mean you go in to be healed and the name the place after the Saint of lost causes....I'm a little confused by it.

If you're so sick that you need to be in a hospital, you may be a "hopeless cause." Keep in mind that some of these hospitals were named before we had some of the medical technology we have now. Also, places like St. Jude's Research Center works with cases like juvinile cancer, the outcome of which is often considered to be lost.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:20 pm

Ivy wrote:
I mean you go in to be healed and the name the place after the Saint of lost causes....I'm a little confused by it.
If you're so sick that you need to be in a hospital, you may be a "hopeless cause." Keep in mind that some of these hospitals were named before we had some of the medical technology we have now. Also, places like St. Jude's Research Center works with cases like juvinile cancer, the outcome of which is often considered to be lost.

your confusion is warranted kinetic - now here's your clue:

the catholics are doing to hospitals and clinics what big pharma is doing to massage schools all over this country - buying them up, marginalizing already damaged care, homogenizing the healing experience, and trying to micro-manage healers. the catholics figure they can rob us of our reproductive rights by taking over the very places women need to go when they need emergency contraception. the religious right (fundamentalists) do it thru big business - wal-mart is the biggest pharmaceutical supplier in this country and they refuse to carry ec; in spite of the fact that they'd make bank off it. not to mention the fact that they have a nasty glass ceiling where it comes to their female employees - i think they have maybe one regional manager who doesn't posses a dick.

i think the saint your looking for is our lady of the cash register - you can find her at the four seasons, having lunch with leona helmsley, every day at noon.

x why z · Post by **x why z** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:25 pm

The inspiration for this suggestion I've made is that Larry himself has stated that he holds democracy as an ideal. This being the case, wouldn't it make sense for him to actually welcome the idea of the BM community taking more authorial control for itself? Might this not actually be one of the phases?

For a community that regards itself as being healthily apprehesive about authority, it is surprising that Larry seems to be revered as a sacred cow not to be questioned. Snicker, cackle, and howl-- I might be starting to agree that this idea won't work, not because it is a bad idea, but because the BM community is not yet enough of a community to make it work. So maybe 10% of the community would care enough to vote-- all that would mean is that the general burner doesn't have enough concern for the general direction of the community to add their voice.

I think people are apprehensive about this because the only models they have seen of a democratic system at work is the tragi-comical parody offered by our current governments, or the half-assed doomed-from-the-start examples they see at work. If burningman is anything, it is an opportunity to distance ourselves from the bad habits that make so much sense while in this world around us. Democratic participation in the major community-wide decisions, it would seem, would be a meaningful set of habits to incorporate into the structure of the community, if nothing else than as a model of how democracy is supposed to work. Learn it on the playa, and carry it beyond-- that's what I hear larry saying.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:45 pm

It's Larry's event, he picks the theme, I (mostly) trust him, but I also think he's influenceable. Witness, Floating World — I'll bet anything he got mused when he saw a lot of people creating watery/oceanic type art out there. Bingo! There was never more people at the event that actively participated in the theme before.

I also think that "Beyond Belief" was another instance of Larry looking at everyone and getting the muse. How many "Temple of..." camps do we see out there every year

And as precipitate said, thou art completely free to ignore th' goddam theme with impunity.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:18 pm

the catholics are doing to hospitals and clinics what big pharma

Excuse me, but Catholics are but a small subset of this. When you talk about the religious right, Catholics are but a very small percentage.

Second, Catholics founded and funded hospitals long before big businesses were around.

Now, I agree that I don't like them influencing citizens through big business, and I support your mud-slinging--as long as it's slung equally at all groups that deserve it.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:30 pm

Ivy wrote:
the catholics are doing to hospitals and clinics what big pharma
Excuse me, but Catholics are but a small subset of this. When you talk about the religious right, Catholics are but a very small percentage.

Second, Catholics founded and funded hospitals long before big businesses were around.

Now, I agree that I don't like them influencing citizens through big business, and I support your mud-slinging--as long as it's slung equally at all groups that deserve it.

that's why i waited for everyone to show up - i have a double wide cooler filled with mudpies. that way, we each get a few turns.

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:52 pm

x why z wrote:The inspiration for this suggestion I've made is that Larry himself has stated that he holds democracy as an ideal. This being the case, wouldn't it make sense for him to actually welcome the idea of the BM community taking more authorial control for itself? Might this not actually be one of the phases?

For a community that regards itself as being healthily apprehesive about authority, it is surprising that Larry seems to be revered as a sacred cow not to be questioned. Snicker, cackle, and howl-- I might be starting to agree that this idea won't work, not because it is a bad idea, but because the BM community is not yet enough of a community to make it work. So maybe 10% of the community would care enough to vote-- all that would mean is that the general burner doesn't have enough concern for the general direction of the community to add their voice.

I think people are apprehensive about this because the only models they have seen of a democratic system at work is the tragi-comical parody offered by our current governments, or the half-assed doomed-from-the-start examples they see at work. If burningman is anything, it is an opportunity to distance ourselves from the bad habits that make so much sense while in this world around us. Democratic participation in the major community-wide decisions, it would seem, would be a meaningful set of habits to incorporate into the structure of the community, if nothing else than as a model of how democracy is supposed to work. Learn it on the playa, and carry it beyond-- that's what I hear larry saying.

Here, here X why Z. Why not shake things up a bit? The themes have only one direction to go here, and that's up. I've yet to get excited with a Burning Man theme. The whole Borg things reminds me too much of high school anyway, everyone kissing ass to the chosen few, and people protectively guarding their "important positions." OK, I'm going to get hell for this but, whatever.

Iago · Post by **Iago** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:54 pm

Have I missed out on something here? I thought hauling your sorry ass out to a big flat lake bed with all your camping gear and having a great time with your neighbors and waiting for this big fucking wood effigy to get burn down which is your clue to clean your shit up and go home was enough. That's 'theme' enough for me...

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:01 pm

Iago wrote:Have I missed out on something here? I thought hauling your sorry ass out to a big flat lake bed with all your camping gear and having a great time with your neighbors and waiting for this big fucking wood effigy to get burn down which is your clue to clean your shit up and go home was enough. That's 'theme' enough for me...

dat's wight, wabbit.

pay them no mind, iago.

a true warrior is an artist.

gotta be pretty fuckin artful to live thru hell and live to party another day.

oh and fyi, burner friends - brc is not the dmz.

TheDude · Post by **TheDude** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:02 pm

I think we are all missing the point. It's interesting how the sides point at each other. Do you ever wonder why there always seems to be two sides? Black, White. Republican, Democrat. Right, Left. Blah, Blah. We BM community should know better than anyone that there are huge shades of gray. I truely believe that I can be a responsible adult, and insist on acting like a kid sometimes. How many of us are professional people and take drugs. Society says that you can't be a free spirit and party, and hold down a responcable job. (actually I'm sure some of us are having a hard time keeping a job). We have all been scammed, and we are a part of the scam. Everyone's heard of the ancient battle term "Divide and conquer". In order for people to hold power, They have to divide first, then destroy the world around us enough to make us dependant on them, and arguing with each other. Don't even think for a second that republicans are all rich and want to destroy the invironment, and that all Democrats are looking out for the little guy and minorities. They all are bad! All they want is the power over us. It's so easy for us to look at a bad things like -the Preist scandle that's rock'n the Catholic Church, or the terrorists that have killed innocent people in the name of Allah, and Islam- and say that Catholics suck or Muslums are crazy, when it's not the pholosiphy but the people that have taken controle of the said organization and twisted it to their needs. It hurts to see someone take such a good idea and twist it, and fuck it up. How about we focus on what brings us together, insted of letting the power hungry devide us. I don't have a theme name but how about next years theme being something that celebrates our radical self expression and in compleet acceptance. I guess what ever the theme, that should be the deal on the Playa anyway. The theme should be something that stands out as a huge sign to the "Normals" that our way is just as valid as theirs. Or maybe I need to stop smoking this powerful weed that makes me ramble.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:53 pm

wouldn't it make sense for him to actually welcome the idea of the BM community taking more authorial control for itself?

I was under the impression that <i>we have it.</i> You exercise authorial control whenever you say "Next year, I'm gonna do [insert your choice here]," continuing on to the brainstorming phase, sourcing and pricing, and then doing it.

Event: Theme is announced.

Response: "Acknowledged." And continuing on, perhaps inspired, perhaps influenced, perhaps rebellious, perhaps indifferent.

This <b>is</b> authorial control. How much more do you want??!?!

PJ · Post by PJ » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:38 am

x why z wrote:...For a community that regards itself as being healthily apprehesive about authority, it is surprising that Larry seems to be revered as a sacred cow not to be questioned.

Larry's one guy, flaky but mostly harmless, if highly-placed. (By himself since he effectively owns Burning Man.) Whereas a committee is usually a faceless amorphous entity accountable to nobody, propelled by bureaucratic inertia. It's decisions however mediocre or awful cannot be fought; typically those that try accomplish nothing aside from personal frustration.

But in any case most attendees are indifferent to the annual theme. "Floating World," "Seven Ages of Man," "Beyond Belief," whatever--doesn't affect how fun the Naked Zipline is.

And for the record, I've been officially branded "Not a Team Player," which pleases me.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:52 am

PJ wrote:And for the record, I've been officially branded "Not a Team Player," which pleases me.

it fucking well should. it the only reason i'm consenting to this.

hell, pj - zona owns a plane , too.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:00 am

Lemiwinks wrote:I think we are all missing the point. Or maybe I need to stop smoking this powerful weed that makes me ramble.

here, lemiwinks - i edited that post for you.

remember - just because you speak braille, it doesn't mean it doesn't still hurt our eyes.

III · Post by **III** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:28 am

>wouldn't it make sense for him to actually welcome the idea of the BM community taking more authorial control for itself?

have you *read* the four point plan? it's all about maintaining control over the bm community, and not letting it develop on its own.

i think where you see slavish devotion to larry, there are really people who think the theme is a silly place to fight the autonomy fight.

theme authorship

Should the theme be put to a community-wide vote?

Could it be true?

Re: Could it be true?