Center Camp/coffee debate

III · Post by **III** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:14 am

>sounds like fightin' werds ta me

swhat the jury seemed to think to. shooter was found innocent on grounds that "he just needed shootin" or whatever the nevada equivalent in legalese is.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:17 am

III wrote:shooter was found innocent on grounds that "he just needed shootin"

<sniff> Gawd bless a Merika.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:18 am

III wrote:>sounds like fightin' werds ta me

swhat the jury seemed to think to. shooter was found innocent on grounds that "he just needed shootin" or whatever the nevada equivalent in legalese is.

well vague is more than what i should expect out of here anyway. thanks.

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:36 am

I believe Flash was last seen driving a large marine predator at unsafe speeds around the playa...

BTW, I did'nt mean Chai Guy should compete with the cafe by selling cooffe and chai, I meant he should do all that stuff, and then GIVE it away. Who'd spend money at the cafe then?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:39 am

No, Flash was last seen passed out on the playa where he was transported to Reno and hospitalized for a bad case of pneumonia.

He tends bar every Tuesday at the Odeon here in SF BTW.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:43 am

thanks Badger.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:26 am

I did'nt mean Chai Guy should compete with the cafe by selling cooffe and chai, I meant he should do all that stuff, and then GIVE it away

Kelly,

At the risk of sounding redundant:

That's what he does.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:38 pm

Hahahaaa! Thanks Ivy!

I'm not against Center Camp, the art and all the stuff that goes on in there, just against selling stuff at an event that is supposed to be non-commercial.
The Cafe supposedly operates at a loss anyway, so what's the point?

I think the citizens of BRC can provide Coffee and Chai and Lemonade for themselves and each other, and in fact, that is what I do (with the help of my friends!)

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:36 pm

Oh, having to explain sarcasm is so tedious, but since Ivy and Chai Guy since determined not to get the point, I reiterate:

KellY wrote: Just organize some friends, get enough coffee and chai to supply everyone on the playa for a week, oh, and you'll need milk, and some place to refrigerate the thousands of gallons of milk for the week, and volunteers to serve everyone twenty four hours a day, and a shade structure big enough for several hundred people at a time that can withstand ninety mile-an-hour winds, and some cool art to decorate the place with, and a couple of stages, and some more volunteers to keep the stages running, oh yeah, and garbage for all the waste you'll be accumulating (let me tell you, cleaning used coffee grounds off the playa sucks) and boom, the Center Camp cafe will look like Downtown USA after the Wallmart opens.

THEN give it all away.

Hey I saw you giving away Chai at the event, C.G. and I do think it's very cool, but unless you take the steps outlined above it won't be a "viable alternative" to the cafe.

And even though I work at the cafe (full disclosure), I really can't say one way or another whether it makes money or not. But I can say that if it doesn't, it's because so much money is spent on art, stages, furntiture, and all that other stuff that is supposed to make the cafe an enoyable central gathering place. That is what the cafe is all about in my opinion: an informal public hangout, a neutral ground where everyone can come together without any my turf/your turf dynamics. And coffee is the draw. It's the same in the non-playa world, at least in my experience; the cafes, bars, and hairdressers are the well-loved hangouts, and the town-provided teen rec center is empty.

My two bits and then some.

quiet girl · Post by **quiet girl** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:50 pm

Hey all...

Yeah, Flash was doing great until he got pnemonia. If he's back at The Odean it sounds like he's doing okay again. Good.
I ran into him a lot this year while working on the Man's temple. He ate my dinner once and felt bad enough that he collected for me a whole new dinner (plus an unopened beer) culled together from Dana's decorating crew.

He's definantly a staple around there...in all of the years that I've known him, he's never failed to amuse.

As to the "vending" situation, if I'm remembering things correctly, the health dept. makes Burning Man sell ice and water.

As to the coffee, etc., I don't mind it being sold but wish it were cheaper and that participants were openly encouraged (possibly with a note in the Survival Guide?) to bring their own cups as to cut down on the trash. Hmm...perhaps encouraging people to bring their own cups is a way to cut down on the price?

I had some of the Chai Guy's chai during the event, and I gotta say it was excellent! Thanks for providing such a valuable service to those of us who work too much or are too naked or inebriated to remember to pack a wallet.

Kimric Smythe did something really cool a while back called The Java Cow...anyone remember this? The last year he did it was in 2000, I think. Early during the mornings he was out at the Man dispensing coffee to the masses.

Brain fried...I've been working too many hours at a sedentary desk job today...<snore>

J · Post by J » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:03 pm

really expensive coffee, and I am referring to beans that were picked by the hands of nubile blonde virgins, may have a generous no overhead cost of cost 45 cents total. Of which the cup may have a max cost of dime. Though I have yet to attend, I am assuming is not going to be using the top of the line beans, the cup will most likely make up 25% of the cost per cup.

J

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:41 pm

Kelly,

At the risk of sounding redundant:

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Aristotle · Post by **Aristotle** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:19 am

So I heard some rumor that I’d like to dispel.

I heard this guy telling a story about the coffee sold at burning man. He said that some independent hippy coffee shop in Northern California actually got all of the coffee beans for the event themselves. He was saying that it was fair trade, shade grown, organically grown coffee from Mexico. This kid elaborated by explaining some tale about how some freaky college student went with the owner of the hippy coffee shop and imported 2,200 pounds back to the states. I guess the college kid just volunteered as a learning experience. He said that then it was roasted in small batches in the coffee shop just prior to the event. He had some dreamy tranced-out hippy look in his eyes when he started about how they did it so that a whole slew of people could be stoked out on high quality gourmet organic coffee in the middle of the dessert. He even went on to tell me that that same coffee shop donated pounds of free coffee to some subversive kids in their town that were going to the event to give away free coffee to folks in line.

Even though I did see some people passing out free coffee to the shmoes in line, I am almost positive that the coffee being served in Center Cafe was actually purchased from Starbucks.
Golly, I cannot wait until I can get a frappaccino next year.
I think I would have lost my lunch if I drank hippy coffee.

Furthermore, I would like to say that I think that stealing the tips from the workers is definitely the way to go!

When fighting in chess I always aim at the pawns… screw the king… I mean why bother?! It’s like trying to fight a dog when you can just kill puppies!

Those café workers are just so rude anyway… I’ve heard some horrible customer service reports in a different thread. I think that we should be able to fire the volunteers. I mean they exist in those positions to serve us. If they are not amicable, then I see no reason why we shouldn’t just give them the boot. Most of them are just young brats that don’t have real jobs in the real world, and probably could never afford to sponsor a theme camp and truly participate. They should get real jobs so that they can spend their money in advance of the event so that they can not only be truly self-reliant, but also can do it comfortably and in style. I personally spend gobs of money to make sure I can get to Burning Man and back and give out gifts to all my new friends while I’m there! But I’m glad that when I get there no one spends any money… well except for coffee, ice, and to get their sewage picked up from their RV’s.

Mmmmm. Starbucks. Frappaccino.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:10 am

Yeah, what Aristotle said.

The key is definitely to hassle the volunteers behind the counter (especially the ones that pick up the garbage people leave, they're just propagating the end of personal responsibility!) and rip on sleepy hippies on the couches while totally ignoring the 30-plus art installations placed in the cafe.

Also, save the rotten fruit and veggies you've got from not bringing enough ice (and being too principled to buy any from those evil, charity-supporting dicks over at Camp Artica) to throw at the hundreds of musicians and spoken word performers that will show up to entertain and enlighten you throughout the week. Those fuckers.

Oh yeah, and tear down the decorations while yer at it, especially the ones made by Burners who couldn't actually come to Nevada but wanted to contribute in some small way. The NERVE of some people.

Next I think we should all save our saliva so that we can run around spitting on the dumbass clods who actually hang out in the cafe like total posers, people-watching and having conversations with people they might not otherwise meet. All those fucking coffee-drinking face-painting hip-photographing fortune-telling penis-chess-playing massage-giving pinball-orgasming yoga-instructing mind-warping jugglers and bellydancers and puppeteers are all just looking for attention.

LOSERS. Not like us. WE contribute to the event.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:04 am

KellY wrote:
And even though I work at the cafe (full disclosure), I really can't say one way or another whether it makes money or not. But I can say that if it doesn't, it's because so much money is spent on art, stages, furntiture, and all that other stuff that is supposed to make the cafe an enoyable central gathering place.

On the Tuesday after the burn, as we were leaving the Playa we saw an armored truck coming out to the Playa. I don't know what it costs to have an armored truck come out from Reno, but that's a five/six hour round trip. The salary for two armed guards. I'm sure that those suckers have pretty low milage. And they draw attention to the fact that "Here's Money!" So, I'd guess you don't even bother with hiring one until the high 4, low 5 figures.

I think Artica closed on Monday. I find it doubtful that gate reciepts would sit in a trailer over the weekend to be taken out in an armored car. So the most likely guess, in my view, IS the cafe.

I don't know how much is spent on stages, etc. (Don't they save any of it from year to year?) I know some of the decor is volenteer labor--no idea on materials, though. Isn't some of the funiture donated? [ And if it all goes to the commisery, why is the only vegitarian dish "random things that happen to eggplant." (I swear, someone must hijack an eggplant truck as their to event transport.)]

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:49 am

BlueBirdPoof wrote:
I think Artica closed on Monday. I find it doubtful that gate reciepts would sit in a trailer over the weekend to be taken out in an armored car. So the most likely guess, in my view, IS the cafe.

um..what? With all of the badasses in the DPW and Rangers at the ready, I find it really, really hard to believe that an armored car would be hired. This is a HUGE assumption based on the fact that you saw one driving around, so perhaps this line of supposition should be noted as such.

BlueBirdPoof wrote:I don't know how much is spent on stages, etc. (Don't they save any of it from year to year?) I know some of the decor is volenteer labor--no idea on materials, though. Isn't some of the funiture donated?

Only sofas and some carpets are donated. The DPW makes all the other furniture, and while as much of it as possible is used from year to year, folks are really hard on it and break some, some gets stolen, and some just succumbs to the elements. Some amount of carpet has to be bought every other year or so because it gets super-trashed. There is no room to store stages inside so they are built every year. $$ is also spent on energy to light the cafe and power some of the art that's installed there.

BlueBirdPoof wrote: And if it all goes to the commisery, why is the only vegitarian dish "random things that happen to eggplant." (I swear, someone must hijack an eggplant truck as their to event transport.)

No way! I was fed by the commissary during setup and cleanup and it ROCKED. I only remember eating eggplant 2 or 3 times.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:56 am

technopatra wrote:
BlueBirdPoof wrote: I find it really, really hard to believe that an armored car would be hired. This is a HUGE assumption based on the fact that you saw one driving around, so perhaps this line of supposition should be noted as such.

I think I was fairly open about the fact that I was speculating.

I think it's less of an assumption than: I--Lost on way home from Empire, or II--Scenic route to Winnemucca. These businesses exist to make money, so assuming money is involved doesn't seem a huge strech. And I doubt that armoured truck companies sell used vehicles with logos ect on the side.

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:41 pm

Hi Bluebird,

It actually wouldn't surprise me if the LLC hired an armored car to take the money collected during the event to Reno - even if it was just the cafe, not tickets and ice as well, which I suspect would actually be the case- that's a lot of cash. Can you blame them? That could be the future of the event on that two-hour ride through the empty desert.

Anyway, what I meant was I couldn't say whether the cafe made money after all of it's expenses, which as the lovely Technopatra mentioned, are rather steep.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:10 pm

> it won't be a "viable alternative" to the cafe.

Pardon me if I'm just being obtuse and not getting your sarcasm, but that
statement seems to imply that you think there needs to be a cafe: a
central place where people can obtain coffee and related drinks.

Why? Why not bring their own, share with their neighbors, join their
neighbors for a cuppa in the morning? Why must a central group supply
it for them?

I think what Chai Guy is doing is great, and In the Spirit of Burning Man
(TM), but I don't think it is in any way necessary. I don't think the cafe
itself contributes a whole hell of a lot to the sense of community. If
anything, it provides a place for anonymous non-interaction, a place
where it's OK to ignore people or to stare at them or to spectate the way
you would in the real world.

Chai Guy changes that dynamic by personalizing the transaction. You're
getting a gift from a stranger, to whom you will probably feel some
gratitude if yer mama raised you right, instead of performing a monetary
transaction with some worker who's "paid" to serve you and whom you
may perfunctorily thank, but to whom you most likely won't feel the same
degree of gratitude as if it were their own money you were consuming.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:14 am

KellY wrote:Hi Bluebird,

It actually wouldn't surprise me if the LLC hired an armored car to take the money collected during the event to Reno - even if it was just the cafe, not tickets and ice as well, which I suspect would actually be the case- that's a lot of cash. Can you blame them? That could be the future of the event on that two-hour ride through the empty desert.

Anyway, what I meant was I couldn't say whether the cafe made money after all of it's expenses, which as the lovely Technopatra mentioned, are rather steep.

Yeah, even I had to admit to myself (after posting) that buying furniture and decorations for the cafe ON THE PLAYA didn't make sense.

On the other hand, Technopatra seemed to me to be dismissing the idea of an armored car out of hand, which left me to another round of speculation (bringing money to the playa to pay off volenteers who'd payed for their tickets and then worked enough shifts to be reimbursed--weak; corrupt guards who were planning to mire the car in the desert and make off with the cash, but had no idea that BM was happening that week--the stuff of a bad caper comedy.) Plus, that "Hey I say it with my own eyes!" reaction.

Whatever the expences of the cafe [and looking at those banners (which I do find lovely and useful, btw,) even though they are re-used from year to year--that's not cheap cloth] the secrecy about where the money goes invites speculation. Especially in the light of the "no vending" rule, and the issues that certain burners have with the cafe for being above it. I personally find that the LLC is a little squirrelly and protective about money (and certain other) matters and I can understand why long-time burners might wish there was more transperancy about such things. I can even find myself thinking things like "Well, I can't do a damn thing about how Arnie runs the state and Georgie runs the country, but I expect better from the BMorg." Naive, yes. But I feel like I have a stake in the city and so I end up feeling a little dissed.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:12 am

BlueBirdPoof wrote:
On the other hand, Technopatra seemed to me to be dismissing the idea of an armored car out of hand

Yeah, I guess I did. I've been pretty involved with the cafe on the playa, and figured I'd somehow know about it if there was an armored truck involved. But although I sometimes think I do, I actually don't know everything, so your musings may very well be right.

BlueBirdPoof wrote:which left me to another round of speculation...corrupt guards who were planning to mire the car in the desert and make off with the cash, but had no idea that BM was happening that week--the stuff of a bad caper comedy.)

Ooh ooh ooh! What a great idea for a B-grade indie movie - five criminals stumble upon Burning Man in their attempts to getaway from a bungled job in Reno, and are each transformed by a different, yet typical playa experience:

1 repressed-guy hides out in a rave camp, is introduced to E, and spends an incredible night alternately dancing and discovering the root of his childhood trauma through a series of deep, hand-holding conversations with a man in a bellydancing costume and a woman in anime gear, ending in a love puddle.

2 guy-that-won't-shut-up-during-the-heist-guy hides out in the latest David Best temple living off of water bottles that folks forget there and whatever food people offer him. He starts out yapping but is evetually goes totally silent, listening to the people who come into the temple and share their stories of love and grief, and reading their memorial graffiti.

3 total-screw-up-guy (the one responsible for the bungling of the job) steals a plushie dog costume out of the back of someone's truck to disguise himself, only to be rounded up by Animal Control and auctioned off to the AstroPups, taken back to their Temple of Eternal Dalmation, and taught the sheer beauty of fire spinning, which he picks up immediately, and is good at.

4 homophobic-guy steals a Gatorade bottle filled with G-spiked Gatorade, then stumbles into Jiffy Lube. Usual hijinks ensue.

5 bossy-ringleader-guy meanders through the playa dissing and intimidating all the pretty freaks, then finds Thunderdome. A tiny goth chick challenges him to a fight, betting that he can fuck her if he wins, and she can do what she wants with him if he loses. She kicks his ass Buffy-style in the dome, and then takes him to ToA, where he discovers, through repeated whippings and gaggings, a typical type-A personality need to surrender.

Let's talk casting!!

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:33 pm

Oh Oh Oh! Can I be the goth girl? I know it's a stretch, but it's only acting... But if you insist on typecasting me, I can be the type A.

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:20 pm

Dibs on the guy in the bellydancing costume. I better start that 6 minute ab workout right away, though.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:33 pm

BlueBirdPoof wrote: Whatever the expences of the cafe [and looking at those banners (which I do find lovely and useful, btw,) even though they are re-used from year to year--that's not cheap cloth] the secrecy about where the money goes invites speculation. Especially in the light of the "no vending" rule, and the issues that certain burners have with the cafe for being above it. I personally find that the LLC is a little squirrelly and protective about money (and certain other) matters and I can understand why long-time burners might wish there was more transperancy about such things. I can even find myself thinking things like "Well, I can't do a damn thing about how Arnie runs the state and Georgie runs the country, but I expect better from the BMorg." Naive, yes. But I feel like I have a stake in the city and so I end up feeling a little dissed.

This is an interesting topic. We created the AfterBurn report to respond to such requests. Many folks who read it don't believe the numbers, anyway, and seem to want to believe that there are massive profits flying around. There is nothing really, that can be done about that - some folks just like to villainize the LLC. Others read it and want more information. Others are satisfied. What are they to do?

It's one thing to feel like you have a stake in the city, but the fact is, the Burning Man LLC is not a co-op, or a non-profit. You are buying into an event, and enjoying the community that supports it, but how does that make them responsible for sharing the details of their finances? You are not truly investing money - you are purchasing a ticket. You have the power to buy or not buy a ticket. I don't see how the LLC is honor-bound to provide anything more than is in the AfterBurn report. Even that is, imo, going above and beyond.

If you haven't read through the entire AfterBurn report, the only way I think anyone can get a sense of how much cash it takes to make Burning Man happen is to volunteer at a deep level. I know that many on this board do that. I see all the different departments working, and I look at the Financial report and go "Man, it's amazing that all that happens with so little money".

I do not speak for the LLC here, this is just me talking.

III · Post by **III** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:37 pm

>I don't see how the LLC is honor-bound to provide anything more

i think it comes from how they sell the event, in particular the whole community thing. it's presented as a "we're all in this together, we're a community" fashion, or at least that's how a lot of people take it. it should be no surprise that they'd want to know how community resources qare being handled, or why certain rules apply only to general attendees and not to the organizers of the party.

as i see it, it's either a community project, *or* it's something that a corporation puts on for their own benifit, with little accountability to the attendees. i don't think you can have it both ways, though.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:46 pm

Well said, Trey.

I'd like to add that BMorg relies on volenteer labor, and that's always a tricky situation. MOst of the work is done by people who are sacrificing scarce resources--time, money, energy, etc--to participate, and with that sacrifice they feel (as humans do) that they are "buying" something. I don't think that the volenteers are a particularly "gimme, gimme" bunch, but to believe that they devote energy to the LLC and should only ask a week in the desert in return is a profound misunderstanding of the species. We can make all sorts of laws, but we cannot repeal human nature.
By the same token, I can understand why the LLC acts as it does in certain cases, but I'm still uncomfortable with it.

mr. wrong · Post by **mr. wrong** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:26 am

I'm a long-time cafe volunteer, and yeah, I call myself a volunteer, although if anyone out there is really into nomenclature and really not into the cafe, they can feel free to be offended and hereby think of me as a profiteer, wage-slave, whatever.
I suppose that the last thing this thread needs is someone else checking in with their pre-formed opinion, but what the hell. My attitude is, unabashedly, that the cafe is great. hah! Stick that in yer pipe and smoke it! And for reasons that haven't even been discussed here: Because it's the busiest place on the playa every morning, downright hectic at times, because I was a coffee slinger for a long time in real life and it brings me back to the good old days, and because what happens there is anything but a normal cash-for-goods transaction. Yeah, people pay, and yeah, they get coffee. Misquote at will! But they also have the chance to talk to their server, their espresso maker, and watch out, the people back there can talk back. There's no pre-set etiquette for the volunteers; you're free to be a person, which of course surprises the hell out of a lot of people, especially Monday at 2 a.m., when a bunch of cranky-ass people from SF come in and want to set up camp. They really do expect Starbucks...

To the idealistic idea of people taking care of it all themselves... great! Let's see it happen. I could conceive of a lot of people bringing out instant coffee for themselves... but it's hard for me to imagine a thousand chai guys springing up from out of the woodwork. Or better yet, five guys coming out with espresso machines that can handle the constant dust. Those are the mercedes of espresso machines out there, quite a bit of capital invested, and they still require repairs on the playa. So who wants to invest half a year's salary in a piece of equipment so that they can provide free coffee?

Although I like the idea, go for it. Before I get another snotty email that says: That's what Chai Guy Does, I'll say: No, it's not. If he was taking care of everyone who wants their chai, then I wouldn't have had to make any this year. Rome wasn't built in a day, right? We'll handle ther situation in the meantime. But until the Amazing Group of People Who Make Free Espresso show up, get off the cafe's back. After all, we're only place-holding for you, the altrusitic vanguard, come to do evrything better and for free and save our souls and...
OK, now I'm getting snotty, sorry. Honestly: Sorry, didn't mean to be a smartass.

And to Chai Guy himself, who I like, who has served me chai, who is as far as I can tell the only person here justified in exercising this kind of criticism, because he's the only one trying to fill the need: For those poor newbies or sober folk who can't don't take e (re: other thread, "why does this happen"), the cafe really does provide a great playground for meeting people and a less chaotic, pharmaceutical way to enjoy the event...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:50 am

> a great playground for meeting people
I like the way you defended Center Camp. My first memory of Burning Man is the surprise i felt at 2 am after rolling in from SF, sitting on a hay bale having some kind of coffee, when the person next to me began speaking to me. I'll never forget it.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:50 am

mr wrong said(snip)
You have your head so far up center camp that you don't know. There are free coffee camps all over BRC. That there are other parts of BRC than the center camp. That people come from other places than SF. Personaly I'm fucking sick of the BM mind set. The people that come to BM outside of SF are paying for the playa. The inner click is makeing a poor show. Yes I can bring and make my own. What the hell is expected next? Just becose they travel afew miles, set up camp and are grummy. That should mean we have to build a hotel just for then? It all come back to self contained. Bring what you need. take it when you leave take it home. One sale, two sale, three sale MORE

NaughtySnowAngel · Post by **NaughtySnowAngel** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:04 am

I have yet to experience The Burn, but I can see the usefullness of ice being sold on the playa.

But I would happen to agree with a great majority of the posts about the free coffee camps. If the true spirt behind center camp is a community gathering locale, why not operate the coffee/tea on a donation basis (donation of coffee and tea) ie much like the sunblock station that I read about.

I know I am just a newbie Burn prospect.....but what about having coffee and tea drives? I maybe naive, but there seem to be enough gatherings year round that coffee and tea could be collected and used for center camp.

I am just thinking out loud of course, so please feel free to put this newbie in her place! I am very excited about '04 and can't wait to see all that I have been reading about and seeing in pictures from burn vets.

Center Camp/coffee debate

Flash, Java Cow and $$$

They don't even serve macchiatos.

Re: They don't even serve macchiatos.

can't wait to see what people respond to this...