Christians don't have to hate the theme! It's universal!

[goathead]

Fudd's Third Law of Thermodynamics

If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.

Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law

It goes in -- it must come out.

[ygmir]

Which, I believe can be disproven in like manner.
Astronomical observations indicate that the universe is 13 billion years old and at least 93 billion light years across.
Houston ah we have a problem.

Well, the way it works is we can see roughly 14 bn years of light, so we have a diameter of 28 bn "visible". The light left 14 bn years ago and we also moved apart in that time, to the tune of 46 bn, at our current and increasing speed. So while the light is 14 bn y.o., the object is now somewhat over 46 bn. light years away. That is a radius, hence we get to roughly 93 bn light years across for the diameter of the known universe. It is one of those "two trains leave the station" equations, with a couple of big numbers tossed in. The universe could be vastly bigger, we could be in just one bubble, just like we thought our galaxy was the only galaxy for the longest time. Houston still has a problem, but it is from the hurricane.

As far as punching holes in any theory, sure. If I say I am human, and you say prove it, and then do not accept any evidence as proof, then you may think you have punched a hole in my theory of humanhood, but you just are doing sophistry. I know Andromeda is a galaxy, I know we have actually seen supernovae in other galaxies. If you choose not to agree, then perhaps you could show me your evidence that better explains what it is, and we'll put it through some repeatable tests. You just can't say, "No it isn't." That is not an argument. (That whole Monty Python thing just flashed through my head..."No, no, no, this is getting hit on the head!")

well,
I'm not trying to do the Monty Python skit, although, I do love them........

All I'm trying to point out is, that, we take a lot of info as fact, but, it truly is "faith", or belief and acceptance of extrapolated information.

Sure, you can say "that is Andromeda" and, it's a galaxy........you can tell me how far away it is and how fast it's moving. And, through calculations, you can compare other models and extrapolate that you are correct.
But,
It's all based on theory.......IMHO.........
even the size of the known universe.. all those calculations are based on the speed of light being constant, since the "beginning", time being a constant, Doppler effect remaining the same over vast distances and possible being "filtered" not only be gravity, but, possibly, "dark matter", or other phenomena yet to be discovered.

I am delving into the philosophical vs science here, I think.
Maybe that's our disconnect.
But, I think, at a point, they can and will coexist..........and compliment eachother.

I read a great, IMHO, book called "The Dancing Woo LI Masters", it kind of goes there, comparing religion, philosophy, and physics......and does a pretty good job, again, IMHO.

Hard to refute, though.

I accept the moon is there, and is as stated. But, until I touch it, I can't know for sure, even then, only what I touch........

Consider our ancestors and electricity, radio signals, penicillin, on and on...........

or, the beliefs in exorcism, bleeding, etc to cure illness........for them it was fact.........

Even the Jib sail, when invented in the northern Baltic region, was thought magic, since, those sailors could sail "against" the wind.........

I understand the moot points of this discussion, I'd just like to finish that all is not always as it seems...........

egad, I'm babbling again.......

[Elderberry]

or, the beliefs in exorcism........for them it was fact.........

Still is fact for Catholics and a bunch of other religions.

JK

[sktELEMENT]

Whew, I thought my post was gonna cause controversy because of some stupid close minded christian fundamentalists...but then I remembered what website I was posting...

And this is why we call it home!...

[Elderberry]

Whew, I thought my post was gonna cause controversy because of some stupid close minded christian fundamentalists...but then I remembered what website I was posting...

And this is why we call it home!...

Well personally, I found your post rather offensive. I'm a creationist you know. Oh, I mean I'm an Intelligent Designer.

JK

[ygmir]

Whew, I thought my post was gonna cause controversy because of some stupid close minded christian fundamentalists...but then I remembered what website I was posting...

And this is why we call it home!...

Well personally, I found your post rather offensive. I'm a creationist you know. Oh, I mean I'm an Intelligent Designer.

JK

well, JK, you are one smart mo fo.......and, if you create things..............

[Captain Goddammit]

I've written replies several times for this thread, and I keep editing them and finally deciding not to even post them. They start out extremely offensive, and I keep cleaning them up and toning them down... I think I've got it down to "if you believe ANY religion, you're a big doo-doo head!".

[ygmir]

now you've hurt my widdle feewings...........

[chiefdanfox]

It's all based on theory.......IMHO.........
even the size of the known universe.. all those calculations are based on the speed of light being constant, since the "beginning", time being a constant, Doppler effect remaining the same over vast distances and possible being "filtered" not only be gravity, but, possibly, "dark matter", or other phenomena yet to be discovered.

OK, I am screaming this as I am running away screaming...
The speed of light is and has remained constant over observable time. It fits with our calculations, which allow us to drop planetary probes on distant planets, keep satellites in orbit, send missiles through Iraqi windows, ad nausea.
Time is not constant, and is affected by gravity. We use this principle every bloody second of every day with our GPS satellites. They take into account not only the delay of the distance from the receiver, or surface, but also that in their orbit, they exist in a slightly faster time continuum. This is called frame dragging. Massive objects have a pull on the fabric of space, and they tend to slow time around them. This is repeatedly tested and proven, and so far, nothing has been offered to refute it, that is testable, repeatable and better explains what we are seeing, measuring. That does not mean that nothing ever will, it just means nothing better explains observations. Science is open ended. Had we found but one refutation, against all of this overwhelming evidence, we would have to toss it, and find another hypothesis to use and test, leading to a clearer theory or understanding of how things work...aaaahhhhhhhhhh

[Elderberry]

It's all based on theory.......IMHO.........
even the size of the known universe.. all those calculations are based on the speed of light being constant, since the "beginning", time being a constant, Doppler effect remaining the same over vast distances and possible being "filtered" not only be gravity, but, possibly, "dark matter", or other phenomena yet to be discovered.

OK, I am screaming this as I am running away screaming...
The speed of light is and has remained constant over observable time. It fits with our calculations, which allow us to drop planetary probes on distant planets, keep satellites in orbit, send missiles through Iraqi windows, ad nausea.
Time is not constant, and is affected by gravity. We use this principle every bloody second of every day with our GPS satellites. They take into account not only the delay of the distance from the receiver, or surface, but also that in their orbit, they exist in a slightly faster time continuum. This is called frame dragging. Massive objects have a pull on the fabric of space, and they tend to slow time around them. This is repeatedly tested and proven, and so far, nothing has been offered to refute it, that is testable, repeatable and better explains what we are seeing, measuring. That does not mean that nothing ever will, it just means nothing better explains observations. Science is open ended. Had we found but one refutation, against all of this overwhelming evidence, we would have to toss it, and find another hypothesis to use and test, leading to a clearer theory or understanding of how things work...aaaahhhhhhhhhh

I'm glad we have so many people that are educated and knowledgable in so many different fields of life and science posting on this board; and that they are willing to take the time to inform and educate the rest of us.

JK

[chiefdanfox]

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elderberry]

Cathartic, isn't it?

JK

[Ugly Dougly]

Which, I believe can be disproven in like manner.
Astronomical observations indicate that the universe is 13 billion years old and at least 93 billion light years across.
Houston ah we have a problem.

Well, the way it works is we can see roughly 14 bn years of light, so we have a diameter of 28 bn "visible". The light left 14 bn years ago and we also moved apart in that time, to the tune of 46 bn, at our current and increasing speed. So while the light is 14 bn y.o., the object is now somewhat over 46 bn. light years away. That is a radius, hence we get to roughly 93 bn light years across for the diameter of the known universe. It is one of those "two trains leave the station" equations, with a couple of big numbers tossed in. The universe could be vastly bigger, we could be in just one bubble, just like we thought our galaxy was the only galaxy for the longest time. Houston still has a problem, but it is from the hurricane.

As far as punching holes in any theory, sure. If I say I am human, and you say prove it, and then do not accept any evidence as proof, then you may think you have punched a hole in my theory of humanhood, but you just are doing sophistry. I know Andromeda is a galaxy, I know we have actually seen supernovae in other galaxies. If you choose not to agree, then perhaps you could show me your evidence that better explains what it is, and we'll put it through some repeatable tests. You just can't say, "No it isn't." That is not an argument. (That whole Monty Python thing just flashed through my head..."No, no, no, this is getting hit on the head!")

So how does anything move 93 billion light years (or even half that) in 13 billion years? The stars have to be moving at a relative speed greater than the speed of light.

Maybe the Big Bang is just another myth, along with the Garden of Eden?

[LisaLuckyOne]

Why do I get the feeling this country is getting ready to relive the dark ages?

BTW - Thank you, CDF. I hope your head doesn't explode.

[Elderberry]

Why do I get the feeling this country is getting ready to relive the dark ages?

I know the feeling.

JK

[ygmir]

CDF:
I think you may be missing, or, I'm not clear, my point:
I don't argue what you say as correct. I'm saying, though, probably in a philosophical sense, that, holes can be punched in it.........
not that I want to, or even care.
I was trying to illustrate how people, no matter the subject, can, if they try hard enough, dispute anything.........

So, then, please explain Zeno's paradox's......paradoxi?......they are kind of fun.........

hahahaha

[Elderberry]

"paradoxes", I believe.

JK

[ygmir]

you don't mean two dachshunds, do you?.............

[chiefdanfox]

OK. I am going to try one more time. That 13.7 by means the observable universe. That is the oldest light we can see, it is very red shifted. We have seen this most ancient of light, and our best knowledge says prior to that time, the universe was so dense (compacted), that photons could not move through. It was opaque. That red shift is used with the Hubble Constant to calculate distances.

For starters, the current number is 13.7 billion years old for the observable universe. This is a radius, right? I look north for 13.7, then turn around and I can see south for 13.7. the math adds up to: 27.4 billion of observable. OK this goes on in a sphere. Up, down, left, right, yes, front and back, and every conceivable angle in between. So Image you are in the center of a sphere, that has a diameter of 27.4 bn ly. Any direction you look, you can see 13.7 bn yo into the past. That is the observable universe.

OK there is a thing called comoving distance the Earth sits from the "edge". In that 13.7 bn years (time, not distance), that measurement is the comoving radius, so imagine you are in the center of an inflating balloon holding the man side of a tape measure, and the fucko side is taped to the wall of the balloon. You see the distance growing: Comoving radius.

Ok that is still not enough, since most folks think ok, I got the 27.4 bn ly thing, and I also get that in 13.7 bn years we have moved, but to get to 93 bn ly across? "WHERE'S MY BIBLE?" Hold on to yer robes and rosary, Peter, I am getting there.

First off we more or less have measured the speed at which the OU has inflated and it is about 50 miles per second per 3/14 million ly, the so-called Hubble constant. So if you can pull out your Newtonian physics and do a a rate of falling calculation, you are going to get a really big number, way bigger than 27 bn ly across. "BUT", Michael paddles in, "It still ain't 93 bn ly, you heathen monkey-boy."

Well, we launched a satellite that took a series of measurements of this first light (they are actually microwaves), and those calculii (may I say that word, calculii? no...) gave us a pretty good idea of the of the factor we need to use to figger out the scale of the expansion. That factor is about 1300. So the universe has expanded 1300 times since first light. The cosmic background, this observable wall of light emitting matter, was 1300 times closer when when the light we see now was emitted.

If nothing was in motion, that light would have been observable to the matter that eventually made earth about 36 million years after the big bang, but since the universe was expanding at 50 miles per second per 3 1/4 million light years, it has taken a while for that light to finally catch us. I am running 6 miles an hour, and Satan is running 7, I have a 20 mile head start, how long before Satan catches me? AND how far will I be from Satan's starting blocks (BTW, his blocks are VERY Steampunk).

On top of all of that, the Universe is very, very curved, not flat, Einstein, so simple geometric calculations will render nonsense. It is like drawing a triangle on an uninflated balloon, and measuring it, then inflating the balloon to twenty times its volume and thinking that the hypotenuse will be h X 20.

I thought everybody knew this.

[gyre]

Didn't you just say that?



Meanwhile, I still can't shake the feeling that Schrödinger's cat is following me...

[Dusza Beben]

I think I can clear all this up for everybody.

If it's truth, I said it. Everything else is theory.

There, that's better.

Ah, life was so much simpler when the men hunted the beasts and the women gathered the roots and berries. Though even then , our big monkey brains were handling huge calculations on the fly. Ever hit a moving target with a rock or atlatl thrown spear or bow and arrow of rifle? For many folks it's instinctive. They don't actually actively think about it, they just do it. That's some serious physics and geometry done simultaneously and without a chalk board!
So we do have marvelously big brains capable of vast calculations but we are still stupid, selfish monkeys incapable of living in peace thanks in large part to the convenient excuse that my God can beat up your God and my local representative for my God said it's O.K. because anybody that follows your God is a big poopie head. In most cases religion has nothing to do with enlightenment and everything to do with controlling the masses IMHO.

Belief is quite possibly the most dangerous word on the planet.

That being said, much like the bible, this theme is open to interpretation!
If someone wants to build a creationist camp more power to them!
Though I think the evolution of dance camp will be more fun.

DB

[ygmir]

OK. I am going to try one more time. That 13.7 by means the observable universe. That is the oldest light we can see, it is very red shifted. We have seen this most ancient of light, and our best knowledge says prior to that time, the universe was so dense (compacted), that photons could not move through. It was opaque. That red shift is used with the Hubble Constant to calculate distances.

For starters, the current number is 13.7 billion years old for the observable universe. This is a radius, right? I look north for 13.7, then turn around and I can see south for 13.7. the math adds up to: 27.4 billion of observable. OK this goes on in a sphere. Up, down, left, right, yes, front and back, and every conceivable angle in between. So Image you are in the center of a sphere, that has a diameter of 27.4 bn ly. Any direction you look, you can see 13.7 bn yo into the past. That is the observable universe.

OK there is a thing called comoving distance the Earth sits from the "edge". In that 13.7 bn years (time, not distance), that measurement is the comoving radius, so imagine you are in the center of an inflating balloon holding the man side of a tape measure, and the fucko side is taped to the wall of the balloon. You see the distance growing: Comoving radius.

Ok that is still not enough, since most folks think ok, I got the 27.4 bn ly thing, and I also get that in 13.7 bn years we have moved, but to get to 93 bn ly across? "WHERE'S MY BIBLE?" Hold on to yer robes and rosary, Peter, I am getting there.

First off we more or less have measured the speed at which the OU has inflated and it is about 50 miles per second per 3/14 million ly, the so-called Hubble constant. So if you can pull out your Newtonian physics and do a a rate of falling calculation, you are going to get a really big number, way bigger than 27 bn ly across. "BUT", Michael paddles in, "It still ain't 93 bn ly, you heathen monkey-boy."

Well, we launched a satellite that took a series of measurements of this first light (they are actually microwaves), and those calculii (may I say that word, calculii? no...) gave us a pretty good idea of the of the factor we need to use to figger out the scale of the expansion. That factor is about 1300. So the universe has expanded 1300 times since first light. The cosmic background, this observable wall of light emitting matter, was 1300 times closer when when the light we see now was emitted.

If nothing was in motion, that light would have been observable to the matter that eventually made earth about 36 million years after the big bang, but since the universe was expanding at 50 miles per second per 3 1/4 million light years, it has taken a while for that light to finally catch us. I am running 6 miles an hour, and Satan is running 7, I have a 20 mile head start, how long before Satan catches me? AND how far will I be from Satan's starting blocks (BTW, his blocks are VERY Steampunk).

On top of all of that, the Universe is very, very curved, not flat, Einstein, so simple geometric calculations will render nonsense. It is like drawing a triangle on an uninflated balloon, and measuring it, then inflating the balloon to twenty times its volume and thinking that the hypotenuse will be h X 20.

I thought everybody knew this.

"Shazam"............:



quote from Gomer Pyle............

[Elderberry]

If someone wants to build a creationist camp more power to them!

DB

I think a creationist camp could be a hoot if done well.

JK

[Bob]

Whew, I thought my post was gonna cause controversy because of some stupid close minded christian fundamentalists...but then I remembered what website I was posting...

And this is why we call it home!...

Conversely, it may be proven that the average buhrnur is a hateful ignoramus with a poor understanding of both science & Christianity, in general & particular.

[theCryptofishist]

Whew, I thought my post was gonna cause controversy because of some stupid close minded christian fundamentalists...but then I remembered what website I was posting...

And this is why we call it home!...

Conversely, it may be proven that the average buhrnur is a hateful ignoramus with a poor understanding of both science & Christianity, in general & particular.

Damn, Bob just set me up with a challenge. I would say that it holds for me and that I'm probably ahead of most americans in all four catagories.


I'm scared. Hold me.

[gyre]

...damn subatomic bric-à-brac anyway...

Looks like early man walked upright in the trees and had prehensile toes.



YOU'RE GONNA LOOK LIKE A MONKEY WHEN YOU GET OLD

You're gonna look like a monkey when you get old
You're gonna look just like a monkey when you get old
I can tell 'bout your hair
You caught coconuts in the air
You're gonna look like a monkey when you get old

I can tell by eyes
You caught coconuts flying high

I can tell 'bout your knees
You been climbing up coconut trees

I can tell by the way you hang
Your daddy was orangutan

I can tell by your shape
Your first cousin must be a ape

Nobody stays a monkey but you when you get old
Nobody stays a monkey but you when you get old
I can tell by your shoes
You just love to dance the blues
You gonna look like a monkey when you get old

You're gonna look like a monkey when you get old
You're gonna look just like a monkey when you get old
I can tell by your breath
You been lovin' a monkey to death
That's right Sam

[Dusza Beben]

...damn subatomic bric-à-brac anyway...

Looks like early man walked upright in the trees and had prehensile toes.



YOU'RE GONNA LOOK LIKE A MONKEY WHEN YOU GET OLD

You're gonna look like a monkey when you get old
You're gonna look just like a monkey when you get old
I can tell 'bout your hair
You caught coconuts in the air
You're gonna look like a monkey when you get old

I can tell by eyes
You caught coconuts flying high

I can tell 'bout your knees
You been climbing up coconut trees

I can tell by the way you hang
Your daddy was orangutan

I can tell by your shape
Your first cousin must be a ape

Nobody stays a monkey but you when you get old
Nobody stays a monkey but you when you get old
I can tell by your shoes
You just love to dance the blues
You gonna look like a monkey when you get old

You're gonna look like a monkey when you get old
You're gonna look just like a monkey when you get old
I can tell by your breath
You been lovin' a monkey to death
That's right Sam

Play it again, Sam...

(Yes I know they never said it in the movie.)

DB

[Simon of the Playa]

buhrnur

what IS that accent?

Woonsocket?

[Bob]

Brahmin.

[gyre]

Brahmin?

Browse Hindu or just check caste.
http://www.jeevansathi.com/