2009 Moop map

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:04 pm

BMORG supply dumpsters? Absolutely not.

If you are concerned about your volume of trash, STOP BRINGING SO MUCH SHIT WITH YOU that you wind up throwing away while you are there.

Its a simple concept, pack it in, pack it out. We saw no less than three dumpsters set up on the way out on Tuesday that enterprising people had set up to collect garbage for a fee.

I also agree with Simon, cattle prods should be distributed for positive re-enforcement of the no moop mandate. It should only take one ZAP! to the groin region of the offending mooper to get the point across.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:31 pm

Maybe Terminal City should have a Human Cattle Drive this year!

Post by **Elderberry** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:31 pm

I don't know why so many people are so adverse to change.

JK

bigbluedoggy · Post by **bigbluedoggy** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:14 pm

I will also disagree with you JK. People in a crowd or festival environment, even when a trash can is 20 feet away, are just as likely to throw things on the ground. The presence of large scale trash service in BRC would eliminate for many the entire concept of having to clean up after themselves. It would become just as disgusting in its aftermath as Bonaroo, Leeds, Woodstock, etc... The camping areas at most of these festivals generally look like landfills after the event. You are giving far more credit to John Q Public than he frankly deserves. Yes, there will be a large number of people who will continue the LNT ethic even in the presence of trash service, but for those who are new to BRC, it will be treated like any other outdoor festival... the world is their toilet and trashcan. Having a large number of portapotties out there does not prevent thousands of people from pissing or even crapping on the desert.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:15 am

They already tried this crap in 1999.

The box van dumpsters by the gate when we left sunday early A.M. were already full and people were still stopping and throwing thier trash next to them on all sides around them and making stacks that DPW then had to deal with.

The population has more than doubled since then and the yahoo factor has grown exponentially.

Really bad idea to have public trash out there.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:21 am

bigbluedoggy wrote:I will also disagree with you JK. People in a crowd or festival environment, even when a trash can is 20 feet away, are just as likely to throw things on the ground. The presence of large scale trash service in BRC would eliminate for many the entire concept of having to clean up after themselves. It would become just as disgusting in its aftermath as Bonaroo, Leeds, Woodstock, etc... The camping areas at most of these festivals generally look like landfills after the event. You are giving far more credit to John Q Public than he frankly deserves. Yes, there will be a large number of people who will continue the LNT ethic even in the presence of trash service, but for those who are new to BRC, it will be treated like any other outdoor festival... the world is their toilet and trashcan. Having a large number of portapotties out there does not prevent thousands of people from pissing or even crapping on the desert.

LOL I have (fortunately) never run across a fresh turd on the playa.

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:23 am

oneeyeddick wrote:They already tried this crap in 1999.

The box van dumpsters by the gate when we left sunday early A.M. were already full and people were still stopping and throwing thier trash next to them on all sides around them and making stacks that DPW then had to deal with.

The population has more than doubled since then and the yahoo factor has grown exponentially.

Really bad idea to have public trash out there.

Seems the problem here is that there weren't enough dumpsters to handle all of the trash.

JK

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:37 am

jkisha wrote:
bigbluedoggy wrote:I will also disagree with you JK. People in a crowd or festival environment, even when a trash can is 20 feet away, are just as likely to throw things on the ground. The presence of large scale trash service in BRC would eliminate for many the entire concept of having to clean up after themselves. It would become just as disgusting in its aftermath as Bonaroo, Leeds, Woodstock, etc... The camping areas at most of these festivals generally look like landfills after the event. You are giving far more credit to John Q Public than he frankly deserves. Yes, there will be a large number of people who will continue the LNT ethic even in the presence of trash service, but for those who are new to BRC, it will be treated like any other outdoor festival... the world is their toilet and trashcan. Having a large number of portapotties out there does not prevent thousands of people from pissing or even crapping on the desert.
LOL I have (fortunately) never run across a fresh turd on the playa.

JK

I have - it was behind a bank of pottys, about 100 ft (apparently the line was too long). A real work of art.

I also work for a fund raiser at the local fair, selling corn on the cob, and am amazed at how often people will drop their wrapper/stick/cup on the ground not 20' from an empty trash can. One can almost understand them leaving their trash on our counter, but discarding it on the ground in plain sight of an empty trash can is so......rude. I have even seen people drop a wrapper at my feet while I am picking up other people's dropped wrappers. Amazing.

Another phenomena that amazes me is how people will keep piling trash onto an overflowing can even though a less full one is 30' away. I guess they figure it will be easier for someone else to pick up each piece of disgusting trash by hand than for them to walk the extra 30' or so.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:49 am

dragonfly Jafe wrote: I have even seen people drop a wrapper at my feet while I am picking up other people's dropped wrappers. Amazing.

Those people are from Nevada or somewhere else where there are casinos.

When you discard your coin wrappers, there is the person walking around with a broom and dustpan, picking them up off of the floor as he/she goes along. Very common practice to throw them in his/her direction, since she /he is right there anyhoot.

And then there are those people that just like watching monkeys doing tricks.

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:26 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:And then there are those people that just like watching monkeys doing tricks.

[youtube][/youtube]

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:20 pm

jk

It's not that any of us are afraid of change, it's that we have learned about human nature. Even each of us has accidently dropped something or on occasion been less than perfect at dealing with our trash in the default. We want a place like BRC that forces us to be better people - that raises the bar and tests us. And we like being around like-minded people.

OED shows that even the ORG tried this approach and look at that result.

My question to you is why does the thought of dealing responsibly with your own trash pose such a huge problem for you? Why do you want to hand over control of this one part of our core principles that builds community?

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:27 pm

I can go to any public park, or public land, be it state or local, and see trash everywhere.

I can go to Burning Man and watch several people racing trying to catch a paper plate that got away from someone else.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:36 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:I can go to any public park, or public land, be it state or local, and see trash everywhere.

I can go to Burning Man and watch several people racing trying to catch a paper plate that got away from someone else.

Sometimes the wind can make that paper plate chase look like art - with the person darting one way then another! It can be so much fun to watch.

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:21 pm

There may be a point when trash service is required. all it takes is BLM to say "provide garbage service" and BMORG has to comply to keep a permt.

the amount of cleaning bmorg has done has prevented that sofar, doesnt mean its not coming though.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:45 pm

mdmf007; Do you think that's a possibility? Seems to me that BLM locally likes to brag to other BLMs that they have the largest LNT event in their area. I've seen a report of theirs where that was the opening statement.

bigbluedoggy · Post by **bigbluedoggy** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:55 pm

From what I have heard so far, it sounds like this year was the best yet in terms of LNT, even with the increased size from past years!

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:50 pm

Deb Prothero wrote:mdmf007; Do you think that's a possibility? Seems to me that BLM locally likes to brag to other BLMs that they have the largest LNT event in their area. I've seen a report of theirs where that was the opening statement.

Why would it be any less of a LNT event if BMORG supplied dumpsters and trans cans???? When all was said and done it would still be a LNT event with the same bragging rights.

And I can't imagine that, at the bare minimum, having dumpsters available for all at exodus wouldn't help the trash situation along all the roads leaving the event.

JK

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:04 pm

jkisha wrote:
Why would it be any less of a LNT event if BMORG supplied dumpsters and trans cans???? When all was said and done it would still be a LNT event with the same bragging rights.

'cause LNT means each person does it for themselves, in my opinion. Otherwise it's just like any other event.

And I can't imagine that, at the bare minimum, having dumpsters available for all at exodus wouldn't help the trash situation along all the roads leaving the event.

JK

To solve the problem on the roads, we just need to help each other out in tying our garbage on better. More rope, better knots, more cargo nets and whatever else it takes to get the job done.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:37 pm

oneeyeddick wrote: And then there are those people that just like watching monkeys doing tricks.

And some of those people are such instigators that they fling pooh in order to get the monkeys to fling back. [/thread drift]

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:54 pm

jkisha wrote:Why would it be any less of a LNT event if BMORG supplied dumpsters and trans cans???? When all was said and done it would still be a LNT event with the same bragging rights.

And I can't imagine that, at the bare minimum, having dumpsters available for all at exodus wouldn't help the trash situation along all the roads leaving the event.

JK

Let's say your wish is granted and there are hundreds of trash cans lining the streets and 500 or so industrial skid dumpsters next year.

How much time are you personally willing to sacrifice to clean up the massive piles of other people's trash that will be piled around these cans and skid dumpsters?

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:01 pm

CapSmashy wrote:
jkisha wrote:Why would it be any less of a LNT event if BMORG supplied dumpsters and trans cans???? When all was said and done it would still be a LNT event with the same bragging rights.

And I can't imagine that, at the bare minimum, having dumpsters available for all at exodus wouldn't help the trash situation along all the roads leaving the event.

JK
Let's say your wish is granted and there are hundreds of trash cans lining the streets and 500 or so industrial skid dumpsters next year.

How much time are you personally willing to sacrifice to clean up the massive piles of other people's trash that will be piled around these cans and skid dumpsters?

I constantly moop now. If I saw trash laying next to a trash can, I'd pick it up as usual. We are already geared to LNT and mooping, so I believe having the extra convenience will only make it easier for those that are extremely conscious of doing it now to even do more and hopefully encourage people that give it no thought to become more conscious of the importance of mooping.

The cans could be decorated with cute signs like the jots have with clever moop sayings, poems and admonishions. The cans could be placed on at least the main streets at each lamp pole--hey, and just like there are volunteer lamplighters that light the city each night, why couldn't there be BM Moopers that volunteered the same way, to patrol the cans in a ceremony each morning. It could turn into a new ritual with moopers getting the same props and respect as they go on their daily morning moop.

Hey, it might not work; I really don't know, but then again, it might. And nobody knows that either unless it is tried.

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:06 pm

Deb Prothero wrote:
'cause LNT means each person does it for themselves, in my opinion. Otherwise it's just like any other event.

To solve the problem on the roads, we just need to help each other out in tying our garbage on better. More rope, better knots, more cargo nets and whatever else it takes to get the job done.

If your first point were true, why would such a large crew from BMOR have to stay behind to do all the cleanup and playa restoration after all the "participants" have left? Someone else is already doing the majority of the LNT work.

Regarding your second point, how is helping by providing rope, cargo nets, etc. different than providing dumpsters? Self reliance for LNT means that they should have brought those things with them; so I don't see how adding dumpsters to that list would be much different.

OH, and thanks for adding me on FB.

JK

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:27 pm

Deb Prothero wrote:mdmf007; Do you think that's a possibility? Seems to me that BLM locally likes to brag to other BLMs that they have the largest LNT event in their area. I've seen a report of theirs where that was the opening statement.

Deb - Do I think its an option? yes, at some point it will cost BMORG more to organize clean up crews and volunteers that dumpsters will be looked at as a cost saving measure. BLM may also mandate it - like many things they have asked for if they get that wild hair.

Its only the largest LNT event because hundreds of volunteers stay behind for more than a month cleaning. BMORG doesnt own the ranch and dormitory for nothing.

Anything (like dumpsters) that mitigates the amount of trash hitting the playa and blowing to the NorthEast has to help. I have opportunity to spend almost 2 months a year on playa with various clients and groups. There is still a massive amount of shit at the NE corner of the playa - thats where it all ends up stuck in the sage brush and grass.

Without the hundreds of voluntters and tens of thousands of man hours - the highway in and out would look alot worse.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:44 pm

Guess we've still got a long way to go then to prevent the dumpsters from being mandated.

erbal · Post by **erbal** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:21 am

My Â£0.02:

IMO the lack of trash cans means you have to think more carefully about what you are going to do with your trash ... I personally took it as a point of pride that my pockets were almost always full of moop that I'd picked up from the playa ... but then I'm part of the north-wales party scene who also believe very strongly in 'leave no trace'.

I believe that the fear people have of installing trash-cans leading to people just piling their trash up next to them is very valid. Plus 40,000 people in full-on party-mode can generate a LOT of trash in a week, so the only realistic solution you are ever going to have is for them to take their moop back from whence it came.

PS: Chuffed to see that my camp is greeeeeen :D

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:20 am

The idea behind sound camp/esplande camp...is excatly why we Boobarians Dont go up front. Its too much.
I think your work is cut out for you in the trash dept if your a end cap.....
Something that attracts alot of people=Trash of alot of people.

Just goes hand in hand...perhaps if the DJ's said at certain points (once an hour every hour...please look around and pick up 5 pieces of Moop, might entice peeps to help out, but I doubt it. LARGE majority of Ravers and Frat kids...they dont know the crying Indian commercial...it was before their time!

[youtube][/youtube]

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:02 pm

Haven't seen that one in ages, Pinemom. Looks like Simon.

Here's a new environmental shot in the gut:

http://chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=11

These pics were taken recently on an atoll in the Pacific Ocean over 2,000 miles from any humans. Look where all our plastic is going. Makes me ill to think of this.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:13 pm

Deb Prothero wrote:Haven't seen that one in ages, Pinemom. Looks like Simon.

Here's a new environmental shot in the gut:

http://chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=11

These pics were taken recently on an atoll in the Pacific Ocean over 2,000 miles from any humans. Look where all our plastic is going. Makes me ill to think of this.

the link won't work for me........but, I know what you're talking about, I think.........
it is sickening.......and, I'd bet, most of the stuff dumped in the Pacific comes from Asia and Asian ships............but, we still look at them as such "green" (read Japan mostly) countries..........protecting the environment with their lovely cars.......but, look the other way when it comes to their logging the amazon, whaling, etc, etc............
and, no one blasts "them" (Asia), or protests, embargo's, etc.........

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:20 pm

You know, I think I am done with "saving the planet". I will get back on the band wagon when the real issue is addressed--over breeding of the human species. If population growth were controlled, there would be no worry about even having to save the planet. And unfortunately, any talk of this is always squelched by the call of genocide. Well, we need a little genocide. Or another plague to cull the masses. I'm sick and tired of dancing around the entire issue. Same with feeding the starving children. If the weren't permitted to be born, they wouldn't be starving.

JK

this should stir the pot a bit

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:23 pm

jkisha wrote:You know, I think I am done with "saving the planet". I will get back on the band wagon when the real issue is addressed--over breeding of the human species. If population growth were controlled, there would be no worry about even having to save the planet. And unfortunately, any talk of this is always squelched by the call of genocide. Well, we need a little genocide. Or another plague to cull the masses. I'm sick and tired of dancing around the entire issue. Same with feeding the starving children. If the weren't permitted to be born, they wouldn't be starving.

JK

this should stir the pot a bit

and, your clarity of thought, if not subtle, or PC, is, spot on.......IMHO.........