flame thrower resources/guides/plans?

Questions, answers, tips & tricks for newbies and veterans alike
spectabillis
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Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:07 pm
Burning Since: 2022
Location: black rock city

Post by spectabillis » Sat Apr 03, 2004 7:16 pm

robotland wrote:You can score a piezo unit wherever a decent selection of grills are sold, as replacements. Couplafive bucks. You can make a spud cannon with some PVC parts, a piezo sparker and can of aerosol antiperspirant......(WD40 or butane works too, but burning Right Guard has an enjoyably WRONG smell to it....)
Thanks, trying to use a sparker on the end of a 3 ft pipe with fuel spewing out would be rather, uh, risky.

Crazybuthappy noted something I overlooked, using liquid instead of vapor, the flame is much longer.

crazybuthappy
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Location: Freakmont, CA

Post by crazybuthappy » Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:10 am

Spectabillis, I received your email and have been meaning to get back to you with pictures and other data. I still will but I am stuck at work and thought I would add some things to general community.
Personally I think liquid propane is a better way to go but it does have disadvantages: one it is a solvent, so you need valves that are compatible. I believe the McMaster Carr one's listed at the beginning of the thread are supplied with Buna-N o-rings and seals. Cheaper valves at the hardware store are often labeled "Not for LPG."
Working from the bottom of your list that covers the valve.
A nozzle is important, as anyone that has taken fluid dynamics can tell you. The problem is finding a suitable nozzle, I have heard of using metal champagne glasses which seems ideal to me, if anyone has a source for cheap metal glasses (oxymoron?) please post! We used a straight cut pipe which is horrible from a flow standpoint but works well to induce turbulence for ignition.

robotland
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Location: Kalamazoo

Post by robotland » Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:25 am

You can usually find metal glasses at Pier One or similar import places, since a lot of cheap brass and aluminum castings and spinnings come from India. Occult bookstores often carry them too, but you pay more. Do you remove the base and use the stem as a feed tube, leading to the bell as expansion chamber/ignition area? I'm curious.....It might be an interesting aluminum casting project.
Howdy From Kalamazoo

crazybuthappy
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:57 am
Location: Freakmont, CA

Post by crazybuthappy » Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:37 am

(Con't)
The Igniter, needs oxygen, I am not sure how Bonefire flamethrowers ignite, I think he has a much higher energy spark. We used an entire BBQ Piezoelectric assembly it comes with wires and a cermically insulated ignitor ~$12. But it allows you to place the ignitor anywhere you can run wires. Insulate them well and insulate the sparker portion too, we used suitably sized fuel line. Depress the sparker in your bare hand to see why you have to insulate it. Actually have your friend depress the sparker in his/her hand...
This is where we ran into problems, if you put the igniter right in the flow there is no air at full liquid propane flow. We ended up cracking the valve a bit with the cannister upright to ignite the vapor, we then essentially had a pilot light with which to ignite the main stream. It would burn for a while using vapor out of the barrel. The problem was you would give it one good blast and the pilot would be extinguished. I think either a separate small diameter line to feed a dedicated pilot light or playing around with edge of the outward flow would allow instanteous ignition.
Other problems:
If you are using a camping or portable propane bottle, I should warn you the internal valve doesn't react well to liquid propane being flowed over it. You can leave half empty bottles hooked up if you trust your main valve or attach the bottle to your camp stove or some other device. During testing we had like 4 bottles with ruined valves, fortunately we were working on lots of fire devices so there was always somewhere to put excess propane.
Also the entire bottle tends to frost over with the rapid expansion... greatly diminshing it's range and flame size. Dipping the cannister end in a bucket of warm water worked for us. That and using it sparingly kept the bottle temperature under control.

spectabillis
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Location: black rock city

Post by spectabillis » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:50 am

crazybuthappy wrote:This is where we ran into problems.. I think either a separate small diameter line to feed a dedicated pilot light or playing around with edge of the outward flow would allow instanteous ignition.
Thats what I am doing in my design. Have a 3/4"x3/4" tee with a 1/4" top to an 90degree elbow, then to a small thumb valve, then a line running under and past the valve to a 45degree elbow to the nozzle. This way you can control the flow through for a pilot and its part of the pipe that contains fuel before the main valve to keep it going.
If you are using a camping or portable propane bottle, I should warn you the internal valve doesn't react well to liquid propane being flowed over it.
Not sure I understand what you are saying about propane spilling. I was planning on using a 5lb, or 2.5lb tank. But if what you said about OPD valves, that they only allow vapor to come out of the tank valve and not liquid, then that kills that idea! I thought that the OPD valve was connected to an internal tube that ran to the bottom of the tank so it only feeds liquid, if you buy one of those refill adaptors it says to turn the feeding tank upside down when refilling, thought that was to transfer vapor and not the liquid.
If that is the case, then I will use the disposable 2lb tanks and buy a larger tank with the refill adaptor. How long do one of those tanks last? Can you refill them upright and with liquid? I would think since vapor is at the top in those tanks that you have to point the flameflower down and open the valve to fill your pipe, then close it.

spectabillis
Posts: 3527
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Location: black rock city

links and info

Post by spectabillis » Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:56 am

Propane BTU calculator
http://www.reil1.net/BTU_Calculator.xls

Jet Opening Coefficient for flow info
http://www.reil1.net/Orifice.doc

Cheapest OPD based tanks (thanks crazy)
http://gas-light-4u.safeshopper.com/9/cat9.htm?246

Disposable cylinder female adapter (crazy)
http://gas-light-4u.safeshopper.com/21/126.htm?246

Clevis rod connector for handle rod, need to find a smaller one
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/produc ... 19&ccitem=

Split clamp for rear handle mount
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/produc ... 60&ccitem=

-Propane-
1 gallon = 91,500 BTU
1 cubic foot = 25,000 BTU
1 pound = 21,500 BTU
4.24 lbs = 1 gallon
36.39 cubic feet = 1 gallon

pressure in any size propane tank or cylinder can range on average from 80 to 250 psi, normal circumstances the vapor pressure at 100 F is 172 psi, I think thats also the liquification point.

robotland
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Location: Kalamazoo

Post by robotland » Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:00 am

I was flipping through a catalog of gadgets, possibly Sharper Image, when I came across a little widget billed as a "neuromuscular electrotherapy device".....it was a piezo sparker with a plastic handle, straight out of a gas grill.

I was thinking of a design for a "burp gun" that would create fireballs- a chamber, possibly the nice heavy aluminum bell-with-tube-attached that I salvaged from an old diner percolator, fitted with a springloaded cap. A piezo element would be threaded up into the bell, and propane would be introduced via a one-way valve- When ignited, the gas expansion should (theoretically) pop open the cap and allow the fireball to escape. (Possibly a segmented cap in 4 or 6 sections, each hinged and on a light-tension spring, to allow for a more symmetical fireball.) Anyone built something like this? Is the cap necessary to contain the propane if the bell is kept vertical, since it's heavier than air?

I'm just now gingerly approaching fireplay after having really blown the crap outa myself several times as a kid. Few things have the lasting educational value of a good second-bordering-on third-degree burn!
Howdy From Kalamazoo

crazybuthappy
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Location: Freakmont, CA

Post by crazybuthappy » Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:48 am

Please forgive me for posting a reply with a government link:
http://hazmat.dot.gov/opd_advisory.pdf But I believe the brass cylinder shown on the OPD valve picture is a float. If you tip your OPD fitted tank upside down the float sticks straight up and pulls the valve shut. I would not buy an off the shelf refill adapter for this reason. In the old days before OPD you could put your 20 lb. tank in the sun to warm it and your empty camping bottles in the freezer. With an off the shelf adapter you flip your old 20 lb. tank over and let liquid propane flow into the camping bottle. You have to depress the schrader style valve on the side of the camping bottle. Supposedly it takes less than a minute, which would make sense with the temperature difference and flowing liquid propane.
I have been meaning to look at the numbers to see if you can get enough of a temperature difference to condense propane vapor in a camping bottle. I think it would take liquid nitrogen which kinda defeats the purpose of refilling your bottles.
You can have a >40lb. tank without an OPD valve that would allow you to refill camping style tanks. Tipping >40lbs. of propane plus the tank upside down and the cost of the tank added to the cost of the refill has kept me from pursuing this option. According to DOT, you are not allowed to transport refilled camping style tanks .
Lastly, I am not sure refilling the small tanks would work repeatily, I wish I had more data, but we definitely had problems with the internal valves in the camping bottles after hard use. Previously when I was refering to flowing liquid propane over them... the female adapter opens the camping bottle valve. When you tip the bottle upside down the liquid propane flows right out, in this case into the black pipe. The liquid propane goes right through the main valve on the camping bottle. I am not sure if it is the solvent properties of liquid propane or gross temperature changes that affect this valve. But in order to refill them you be doing essentially the same thing.
I guess we accepted the cost of buying a new camping bottle for each performance. Well really we passed it on to Fire Fabulon... I have seen a six pack of bottles that drops the price to ~$1.50 each. They last quite a long time if you use it sparingly, this design was never intented to be something tactical, in that you could use it as a weapon. But you can probably get 20 good blasts out of tank.
I'll try to post some action pictures so you can get an idea of bang for the buck.

spectabillis
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Location: black rock city

fire it up

Post by spectabillis » Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:47 pm

robotland wrote:Do you remove the base and use the stem as a feed tube, leading to the bell as expansion chamber/ignition area?
Sounds like it, but I think I will look for a copper or bronze funnel in the kitchen department to keep alike metals.
robotland wrote:I was thinking of a design for a "burp gun" ... When ignited, the gas expansion should (theoretically) pop open the cap and allow the fireball to escape. ... Is the cap necessary to contain the propane if the bell is kept vertical, since it's heavier than air?!
This would be awsome to see! A few militaries have a bomb that diffuses fuel just above ground level and ignites into a strong percussion wave used to detonate land mines. I dont know about the force of the lid but strong winds or liquid fuel condensing into small droplets could cause a problem. I do remember single-hinged lids on exhaust stacks on semi-big rigs that are meant to keep water and other things out of the exhaust.
robotland wrote: I'm just now gingerly approaching fireplay after having really blown the crap outa myself several times as a kid. Few things have the lasting educational value of a good second-bordering-on third-degree burn!
No doubt! I used to be into pyrotechnics until 2nd and 3rd degree burns to a leg, stuck in a bed and wheelchair, then to crutches, a couple of skin grafts... major lesson.

spectabillis
Posts: 3527
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:07 pm
Burning Since: 2022
Location: black rock city

up in fire

Post by spectabillis » Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:45 pm

crazybuthappy wrote:If you tip your OPD fitted tank upside down the float sticks straight up and pulls the valve shut. I would not buy an off the shelf refill adapter for this reason. .
This works out better, I have not done the math yet but 5lb OPD tanks filled with liquid I think is around 25lbs. Thats why I was going to use a black steel pipe for the first 1 1/2 feet for a handle or the weight would bend the pipe carying it around. Now I can also use a smaller diameter pipe, overall it should be much lighter.
crazybuthappy wrote:... we definitely had problems with the internal valves in the camping bottles after hard use. Previously when I was refering to flowing liquid propane over them... the female adapter opens the camping bottle valve. ...The liquid propane goes right through the main valve on the camping bottle....I have seen a six pack of bottles that drops the price to ~$1.50 each. They last quite a long time if you use it sparingly, this design was never intented to be something tactical, in that you could use it as a weapon. But you can probably get 20 good blasts out of tank.
So that seals it for me, I am going to stick with the 1lb coleman disposable tanks. If they last for 20 blasts then I will buy in bulk and not go for the refill option.

The next issue to tackle is the jet size opening. What size did you use? Did you drill a hole into a plug? Thats what I was planning on.

This was the closest example of a jet for a large size burner that I could find, I dont know the size but it fits the burners on hot air baloons. (middle of page)
http://www.cameronballoons.com/burnerpa ... lloons.htm

crazybuthappy
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:57 am
Location: Freakmont, CA

Post by crazybuthappy » Sat May 01, 2004 5:40 pm

Hey I have been really busy but I thought I would post a picture now that I figured out how:
Image

spectabillis
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Post by spectabillis » Tue May 04, 2004 12:59 am

Very cool, started on mine but waiting on a brass pipe.

crazybuthappy
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:57 am
Location: Freakmont, CA

Post by crazybuthappy » Wed May 12, 2004 4:55 pm

Low tech and not suitable for a crowded venue but a great video:
http://www.spicytuna.net/interesting/vi ... rower.mpeg

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