Treatment of women at Burning Man and beyond

[ygmir]

I don't think CGD was excusing anything. I just see him saying, and pointing out, there are bad and less worthy people, or good people who do bad things.
And, as an individual who treats others with respect, it becomes monotonous, at times, to hear the same thing over and over, pointed at you, because you are male...........sorta a reaction to being stereotyped, not unlike what is championed by anyone who is stereotyped.

Does not mean he does not value women, treat them with all the respect due, and equally.

[Dr. Pyro]

Hay Yggy, I'm free this afternoon. Want to head over to that new strip club in Rocklin?

[VultureChow]

I guess if you feel the claims of sexism are monotonous, we feel the sexism is monotonous. You can only be in so many meetings where someone asks you to go fetch the coffee despite you being one of the goddamn fucking owners of the fucking business, before you lose your mind.

Amazing changes in the past 50 years. Back then I never would have been allowed in this position. But it cuts at your soul just a little bit every time it happens. And it hurts more when the men in your life who should care, don't.

[Simon of the Playa]

i have a mother, many aunts, a sister, two daughters and many nieces, not to mention my girlfriend, and ex's.

i have many friends who are women.

they all deserve to be treated with respect.

anyone who doesnt, has to deal with me, and i will kick your ass.

[ygmir]

I guess if you feel the claims of sexism are monotonous, we feel the sexism is monotonous. You can only be in so many meetings where someone asks you to go fetch the coffee despite you being one of the goddamn fucking owners of the fucking business, before you lose your mind.

Amazing changes in the past 50 years. Back then I never would have been allowed in this position. But it cuts at your soul just a little bit every time it happens. And it hurts more when the men in your life who should care, don't.

and yes, understood. But, does that make it impossible for you to understand, for men who do not do that, how frustrating it is to always be lumped in with those who do? To look at a man, and describe your (warranted) frustration with "men" and not exempt that person, or persons, if in fact they don't do it?
We are generalized, just as much as any other group, and it's ok because it's "PC" to hack on men, and especially certain groups of men.
All I'm saying is, when you generalize, you make those that don't fit, feel the frustration that you are pointing out.

if you keep looking at me (just an example for discussion) at saying how bad men treat you, even if or though, I don't, and do it all the time, at some point it loses it's effect on me, because I don't do it.Yet feel you are implying as such. At that point, the volume goes down, for I feel you are not seeing, or acknowledging, my efforts.

[Ratty]

In other words....Take men one at a time. Not as a group. (Words to live by.)

[ygmir]

In other words....Take men one at a time. Not as a group. (Words to live by.)

this may not be a "hard and fast" rule at Retrofrolic...........just sayin...........

[Simon of the Playa]

his may not be a "hard and fast" rule at Retrofrolic...........just sayin...........

one would hope for at least "hard"...

[ygmir]

his may not be a "hard and fast" rule at Retrofrolic...........just sayin...........

one would hope for at least "hard"...

I can always count on you, pal..............

[VultureChow]

I'm sorry if someone accused you of something you haven't done.

I think it's telling that this thread went from (starting before the break) "Yo I'm a DJ bringing hot strippers for a desert kegger" to "lets talk about the poor representation of women in EDM" to "Not all men are sexists, so shut up." Not one of the comments here said anything about men. It was all about structural examples of sexism.

And the vast majority of the discrimination is not conscious. I don't think that the men in these meetings are looking at me and thinking "Oh, a girl. Well she's only good for making coffee, so I'll make her get me coffee." But unconsciously they've absorbed the lesson that we are there to serve. Likewise, marketing people and DJs don't sit down and discuss how to degrade women today. But results are the same. And they have mothers, and wives, and daughters and sisters. And if you told them what they were doing is sexist, I'm sure they'd react with anger and shock. They're just doing their job. The market demands sex and that's what they produce.

Here's the deal. Even if you are not part of the problem, you can be part of the solution. And frankly, that means not dismissing women when they point out these issues.

/Maybe the M&G should be relocated to Retrofrolic

[maladroit]

Best proof that sexual preference is not determined by choice: a lot of us would have said "I'm done with this bullshit!" and switched teams already.

[VultureChow]

Best proof that sexual preference is not determined by choice: a lot of us would have said "I'm done with this bullshit!" and switched teams already.

I don't think women are any better than men.

[Eric]

Best proof that sexual preference is not determined by choice: a lot of us would have said "I'm done with this bullshit!" and switched teams already.

I'm pretty sure this was intended as humor, but it's proof of what VultureChow was saying about culture ways of women being programmed into us: the "Oh those crazy women, amiright" trope has been so beaten into our heads so much it's a default "joke" position that's not even questioned.

Thinking that just because you're dating or married to the same gender you woouldn't have disagreements or different ways of looking at the world shows that you've obviously never been in a same-gendered relationship. I have, and am (for over 28 years now) - it's not the "men are from/ women are from" bullshit, it's the simple fact that "one of you is from/ the other one is from". All people vary in how they view the world, and how they interpret things. How you negotiate those minefields is what makes for a successful (or unsuccessful) relationship. Yes, there are people who are genuinely crazy in relationships, but their gender has nothing to do with it.

Here's the deal. Even if you are not part of the problem, you can be part of the solution. And frankly, that means not dismissing women when they point out these issues.

This. All the "thousand-times"'s I can give to this.

[ygmir]

ok, let me try to save myself:
I love people.
I try to respect, and treat them the best I can, and yes, some of my jokes miss that mark, and when it's hurtful I truly am sorry.
There are people I choose to have sex with, but that has no bearing on what I think of them or their gender.
I try hard to be equal in my treatment, jokes, and issues, across genders, all genders and preferences.

I am just, at times (maybe too much), sensitive to being lumped, as a male (White, Idealistic, Male, Pagan) into the "men are pigs" category, and feel, at times, I want to say "not all of us, and not all the time". Seldom, does anyone say that.
I also realize, people are different. Some are taller, thinner, with differing mental strengths, smell funny, and walk like ducks.
and, I see no reason not to ask the 7' tall person, to change the light bulb, instead of the 4'10" person, knowing both can, but for one it's much easier.
It does not mean I value anyone more, but it also means, sometimes, it does matter as to characteristics. And if a person wants to, even if it's harder, good on 'em, but if you know no different, picking the person seemingly suited is natural.

*treading water, waiting for floaty or anvil*

[FIGJAM]

If you want me to save you, don't make me wait while you put rocks in your pockets!!!!!!!!!

[Ratty]

Quick Ygmir, you only have 30 minutes to revise that post.

[Joeln]

Pretty damn well said Yggy! I too have lamented being lumped in with the schmucks.

However until structural oppression of all types (race, gender, orientation....) ends, the experts on any particular variant of oppression are decidedly those who suffer under it. And it really does take more than just saying "I'm not one of the problem males." It takes the awareness to catch yourself when you are unconsciously participating in it and, as Simon suggests, doing something when you see others perpetuating the oppression.

[Eric]

I am just, at times (maybe too much), sensitive to being lumped, as a male (White, Idealistic, Male, Pagan) into the "men are pigs" category, and feel, at times, I want to say "not all of us, and not all the time". Seldom, does anyone say that.

Yggy, I love you, but ... honestly, it's said so much it became a Time Magazine article and an internet meme: "#notallmen".
You are correct, we are not all like that (even those of us who aren't straight still get societal conditioning on women), but instead of getting defensive, just listen to what they're saying. Not all women will agree with a statement either, there is no monolithic consensus, but listening to them without talking over them is a good place to start (not directed at Yggy, but at all of us in general). This goes for any community we're not a part of.

*treading water, waiting for floaty or anvil*

I'll totally throw you a floaty, because I know you're a good person. I also know you listen, and learn, and teach.

Pretty damn well said Yggy! I too have lamented being lumped in with the schmucks.

However until structural oppression of all types (race, gender, orientation....) ends, the experts on any particular variant of oppression are decidedly those who suffer under it. And it really does take more than just saying "I'm not one of the problem males." It takes the awareness to catch yourself when you are unconsciously participating in it and, as Simon suggests, doing something when you see others perpetuating the oppression.

We have a winner!

[VultureChow]

*treading water, waiting for floaty or anvil*

I've got two big floaties for you to grab anytime.

Sigh... I get it. No one likes to be misjudged. That's essentially what we're all talking about here, isn't it. The gender stereotype are not good for anyone. Men are hurt by them too.

[maladroit]

Best proof that sexual preference is not determined by choice: a lot of us would have said "I'm done with this bullshit!" and switched teams already.

And the reaction to my statement above proves yet another layer of gender bias. I consciously ensured the wording above had no indication of gender, yet everyone assumed it was about men.

[GreyCoyote]

I am just, at times (maybe too much), sensitive to being lumped, as a male (White, Idealistic, Male, Pagan) into the "men are pigs" category....

Whoa. Total wiplash here! Ygmir just admitted to being a W.I.M.P?

Just goes to show ya, aint nuthin' sacred on eplaya anymore.... And NO, I aint believing it.

[Eric]

Best proof that sexual preference is not determined by choice: a lot of us would have said "I'm done with this bullshit!" and switched teams already.

And the reaction to my statement above proves yet another layer of gender bias. I consciously ensured the wording above had no indication of gender, yet everyone assumed it was about men.

Guilty as charged. And you're correct in it proving unconscious biases (more than just gender): if there is no gender stated, the gender is assumed to be male. If there's no sexuality mentioned, it's assumed to be straight. If there's no race mentioned, it's assumed to white. Wheeee!

[GreyCoyote]

Guilty as charged. And you're correct in it proving unconscious biases (more than just gender): if there is no gender stated, the gender is assumed to be male. If there's no sexuality mentioned, it's assumed to be straight. If there's no race mentioned, it's assumed to white. Wheeee!

Well, that's what we get for letting our ancestors call it "Mankind" instead of "Personkind".

Those racist, sexist bastards anyway...

[Captain Goddammit]

I just got home... I see that Ygmir pretty well cleared up what I meant.
All I meant was anyone treating anyone like shit sucks, and women don't have an exclusive on that.
Men get treated like shit by women too.
And about the pay statistics - maybe it's a local thing but I happen to know a LOT of couples where the woman makes much more money than the man does.

[ranger magnum]

Ya know what? Fuck this bullshit. I'm so sick of hearing about how women are treated.
Most of my life, women have treated me a lot worse than I treated them.
I doubt I'm that much a minority.
People are people. Some are douche bags. Others aren't.

This right here ^^^^^

An asshole is an asshole, whether they have boobs or balls.

And I love strippers. They have it figured out. Use what you have to get what you need.

[maladroit]

Guilty as charged. And you're correct in it proving unconscious biases (more than just gender): if there is no gender stated, the gender is assumed to be male. If there's no sexuality mentioned, it's assumed to be straight. If there's no race mentioned, it's assumed to white. Wheeee!

I'll also enter a plea bargain regarding the other half of your response above, where I ignored for comedic effect the fact that same-gender relationships have just as many problems. It's not that men don't understand women, or vice versa...it's that we're all supercomputers trapped in bodies that only allow 300baud connections to each other. Any sort of relationship takes hard work and time, so there is always a great temptation to use a cached template for others' behavior rather than investing the time to understand every individual.

[Savannah]

I'm sorry if someone accused you of something you haven't done.

I think it's telling that this thread went from (starting before the break) "Yo I'm a DJ bringing hot strippers for a desert kegger" to "lets talk about the poor representation of women in EDM" to "Not all men are sexists, so shut up." Not one of the comments here said anything about men. It was all about structural examples of sexism.

And the vast majority of the discrimination is not conscious. I don't think that the men in these meetings are looking at me and thinking "Oh, a girl. Well she's only good for making coffee, so I'll make her get me coffee." But unconsciously they've absorbed the lesson that we are there to serve. Likewise, marketing people and DJs don't sit down and discuss how to degrade women today. But results are the same. And they have mothers, and wives, and daughters and sisters. And if you told them what they were doing is sexist, I'm sure they'd react with anger and shock. They're just doing their job. The market demands sex and that's what they produce.

Here's the deal. Even if you are not part of the problem, you can be part of the solution. And frankly, that means not dismissing women when they point out these issues.

/Maybe the M&G should be relocated to Retrofrolic

Well said.

[Eric]

Men get treated like shit by women too.

Individual men, yes. Systemically, no. You don't see a system in place where men are judged on their appearance, where their job performance is judged on their gender, where their opinion is judged by the size of their boobs, and where how they are dressed plays a role in determining how a crime against them is treated. There are reams of studies showing these are all true for women, as a systemic issue.

And about the pay statistics - maybe it's a local thing but I happen to know a LOT of couples where the woman makes much more money than the man does.

It's a personal thing. Again, you're taking people you know and applying that to the tens of millions you don't. Study after study has shown that women in this country (amongst others) are paid way less than men, as a whole. Are their exceptions? Of course there are. But to use people you know to make a general case is like me saying "I know a lot of gay men, so most men must be gay". Any study that uses a small sampling is bound to have errors when applied to a larger group, our personal knowledge & circle falls into that "small sampling" category.

[lucky420]

This ^^^ +1000

[Elderberry]

I just want to know if you got the coffee?