The Failures leading to 911

All things outside of Burning Man.
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Rob the Wop
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Post by Rob the Wop » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:30 pm

Alpha wrote:
stuart wrote:you are confusing the US strategic reserves, a bunch of oil sitting underground in tanks primarily in oklahoma, with our natural petroleum reserves, which are pretty vast.
Yep, I was confusing the bird in the hand for the two in the bush. Still, where do our natural reserves exist? If our natural resources are so vast, why should we even have to debate about drilling in ANWAR for enough oil to last a lousy 6 months/3 years/whatever ?
Can I hear an Amen for the Almighty Dollar?
Praise the Lord!

Same reason a lot of our industry has moved offshore. Cheaper to get oil in a third world country than to drill it out of our own backyard. Plus, after we use up everyone else's oil- we'll be the only ones with oil left.
[b]The other, other white meat.[/b]

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:13 pm

Adolf builds a bonfire and Enrico plays with it...

Did you know that the Iraqi christians were once the Assirians.

They knew how to rule their country back then!

Saddam would like Pee Wee Herman compared to them.

Should have let Saddam take Kuwait, the Saudis and helped him take Iran!

Ho Boy but we couldn't let him have all that oil!

Shit he owned us favors for builting his chemical plants and all the Black Hawks and the rest of the fucking military hardware we sold him that made .

We could be filling up with a buck a gallon gas!

He feared us! All those radical extremists feared him!

The Islamic extremist knew the only person that could get rid of him was george W. So lets try to kill his dad and leave some papers stolen from Iraq to frame him. GW and his cronies suck it right up as well as the CIA and FBI.

With saddam gone they now have the crossroads of the middle east and they will wait centuries to finalize their plans. We in the states get bored when a movie goes over 2 1/5 hours!

Do you have the guts and money for a two century war.

Crusade you say! Did a great job there!

A II Z




Then muscle in on him

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:57 pm

"Oh God, avenge America, oh God, avenge its allies," the prayer leader at Prince Sultan bin Abdel Aziz mosque in a northern Riyadh neighborhood said last Friday. "Oh God, order your soldiers to show them torture, oh God divide them, oh God avenge them for what they are corrupting in Iraq."

Yes, we gave them freedom... and internet porn, alcohol, pork and 24 hour walmarts!

The war has really helped our reputation in the Islamic war and I must thank GW Bush for visionary guidance as a real leader of westerm christian causes!

God Bless you GW!

A II Z

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:27 am

Sorry I am late to this party, although I am sure several of you are not, as I am also sure that Jordan will shortly agree with them.

I just re-read the thread and I have to say that while I appreciate Jordan's gameness in taking on all comers, his arguments really are misinformed and specious in almost every instance.

Despite all the convolutions, the bottom line is that the 9/11 attacks had nothing to do with Iraq, just as our invasion of that country had nothing to do with 9/11.

Whether or not Hussein was a brutal dictator does not justify the invasion of a sovereign nation. The world is full of them, and the fact that we picked this one is not random and unrelated to the resources available for plunder once the fix is in. Hussein could have bathed in the blood of infants for all of his days if he was squatting on some resource-poor African nation. This war is not about morality.

Iraq was no threat to the US, the world or its neighbors after we destroyed his military in the first Gulf War. At its *most* powerful, our army blew his army off the territory like dry leaves. The estimate of his military strength going into GWII was less than 10% of what it was. No airforce, no navy, no armor and a conscript army is not a good recipe for toppling Western Civilization. Of course, he had all those WMD's ready for their missile rides on 45 minute's notice...

Whether or not (not) Iraq had WMDs, also does not justify invasion of a sovereign power. We have the largest stockpiles of NBC weapons, (yes, all three) in the world. We are undoubtedly a threat to other nations, most recently evidenced in Iraq and Afghanistan, but you needn't go very far back to find Panama or Vietnam. As a matter of course we conduct military operations that rely upon the terrorization of the civilian populace in order to achieve political goals, this strategy really hitting its stride with the carpet-bombing of Germany and Japan in WWII and culminated in the Hamburg, Dresden and Tokyo firestorms and the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

By my count, that makes us WMD armed terrorists who have shown no compunction when faced with killing *huge* numbers of innocents with the most horrible weapons we can dream up. Put that in your morality pipe and smoke it.

Further, it is totally disingenous of Jordan to place the burden of solving this mess on those that criticize it. This is akin to someone who speeds through a red light, smashes your car and then demands you fix the dents on the spot as proof that he was in the wrong.

From this point, we have no good options in Iraq. There will be no clean end to this whether we cut and run or gut it out. Iraqi blood will flow for years either way, but American blood may not. I am of the mind that our strategy should be formulated along whatever lines are most likely to heal the wounds we have inflicted on the region rather than looking invincible or "staying the course" because we have begun it.

At the very least apologies should be made to the UN, and the Iraqi people. We should enlist the support and advice of the UN, the interim governing council and the most influential representative of the three main religions of Iraq. We should be asking them for guidance instead of issuing edicts and telling them what is going to happen and clinging to a churlish "with us or against us" attitude.

Long-term, we need to address the causes of terrorism instead of simply trying to eliminate the symptoms such as al Qaida while we conduct business as usual.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Post by DVD Burner » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:07 am

OK,

so anyway, lets see now.......this government is spending about 1 billion dollars a week on this Iraq war, so we've been so far told. This is not putting any strain on any American resources.

Hey is today another damage controll kind of day in the media?
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Apollonaris Zeus
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Bush's Blunder!

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:20 am

The Bush admin was mired in the "old school" cold war era missile defense and renegotiating the anti ballistic treaty with the Russians- It took NORAD forever to get their warning out and pilots in the air! Cheney and Carl Rove began planning the war on Iraq years before they ever took office and ignored the intelligence reports on terrorist sleeper cells operating in the US for 9 months.

Ms Rice came into office and slowly began taking apart the National Security Office thinking that it was influencing and directing domestic policy operations instead of being a "foreign policy coordination mechanism" that the admin should be doing. She didn't like that it was setting buget allocations as well- it took alot of money to do the survailence. OMB "the Office of Management and Budget- they do what accountants all do- just look at pinching pennies and saving money for DOD weapons that will never be functional in real world events.

In plain english it was became too powerful and was taking control away from the admin and its policy setting agenda.

She began to downgrade the National Coordinator (the head of the NSC) from what the Clinton Admin brought him and the department up from- a bunch of staffers that only made suggestion to the state department on just foreign issues!

In a meeting with only the Principals Committee, Paul Wolfowitz kept saying that it was the Iraqi Terrorist that were the cause of America problems- Wolfowitz is a Jew and like most Jews they believed that Saddam was paying a lot of money to families of suicide bombers- there is no relevant evidence of that claim. He also fire dummy missiles at Israel in the gulf war!

I know personally the source of that misinformation. Mike Finkel and I covered Burning Man for a Hooked on the Outdoors in 1999. He wrote about it and photographed it. I never ran into him at BM but that not incredible, but Mike was eventually fired from his job at the NY times. For What? Mike made up most of his stories or (highly elaborated) and was caught doing it when he reported a factious story about boys that sold themselves for sex in the middle east. The International Children's funds investigated the story they found out that the subjects were non-existent. The Times Fired Him! He was the only source of Saddam's funding of Suicidal Bombers that I have found and he was quoted by every newspaper in Israel. So Wolfowitz had a personal agenda to go to war using the US as his proxy like Israel has done since its beginning. Anyway that’s another story. Paul Wolfowitz told the NS Coordinator, “you give Bin Laden too much credit!”

It was 4 months from 911.

The FBI, CIA, DOD or NSC knew that Iraq was never a threat to the US and told the principals so.

Seven months after GW Bush was appointed he held his first briefing on the “War on Terrorism

The Date was September 4th.

And he calls himself tough on Terrorism, but he’s the Terrorists best friend!

And Iraq.

It will go down in history as “Bush’s Blunder!”

A II Z

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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:59 am

I want my taxes to stop going to Israel and would like to see Ariel Sharon put in prison.

(I have nothing against Jews. I was rasied with Jews.)

Ariel Sharon is a criminal.
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Post by DangerMouse » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:33 am

DVD Burner wrote:I want my taxes to stop going to Israel and would like to see Ariel Sharon put in prison.

(I have nothing against Jews. I was rasied with Jews.)

Ariel Sharon is a criminal.
Ariel Sharon will probably be indicted for fraud I believe. They're already working on it and have recommended that charges be pressed against him.

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Foreign aid to Israel

Post by Ranger Genius » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:44 pm

DVD: You probably don't know the half of the problem with foreign aid to Israel. Among other things:

Israel recieves the majority of our foreign aid dollars, most of which it spends on its military.

A fair portion of the money sent to Israel is sent back to the US via PACs (Political Action Committees) and is used thus as "Campaign Contributions" (read as: bribes) to congress to keep the money flowing.

The foreign aid we provide to Israel, unlike all other foreign aid, is paid at the BEGINNING of the Fiscal Year, rather than at the end. The federal budget therefore pays interest on these funds all throughout the year.

A bit off-topic, I know, but it was sparked. A good conversation os 90% digression anyway.
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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat May 01, 2004 12:13 am

stuart wrote:you are confusing the US strategic reserves, a bunch of oil sitting underground in tanks primarily in oklahoma, with our natural petroleum reserves, which are pretty vast.
Hey I'm wondering why GW didn't try to drill over those tanks cuz he never hit one drop of oil in any of his oil bidnesses. Shows you all his was was just a scam artist. Could have been one of those speculators trying to sell you a gold mine in death valley if he had been born a hundred years ago.

Another failure leading to 911:

When John Ashcroft took lead of the fbi before 911 he refused to funding for counterterrorism. He had his own pet projects- like medical marijuana, and having every street agent out investigating people for child porn. Even the fbi's memo on child porn and pedophiles state not to spend too much time investigating allegations because every ex-wife, ex- grl or boy friend or hate or whoever make false allegations to defame whomever. He had every agent looking for those nambla types, but never did he have every agent looking for possible and known terrorists in this country.

Then after Patriot Act one he comes out with Patriot II to further deteriorate your constitutional rights with no oversight commitees at all!

Just another flying bomb crashing into your town!

A II Z

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Post by DVD Burner » Sat May 01, 2004 12:17 am

DangerMouse wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:I want my taxes to stop going to Israel and would like to see Ariel Sharon put in prison.

(I have nothing against Jews. I was rasied with Jews.)

Ariel Sharon is a criminal.
Ariel Sharon will probably be indicted for fraud I believe. They're already working on it and have recommended that charges be pressed against him.
They let the rat off the hook today or yesterday.
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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat May 01, 2004 12:06 pm

Please people can you stay on track. This is not an Israeli bashing thread!

No one group of people have contributed more to society that the Jews. And no one group of people have affected society in a negative way then the christains.

So blame the Christians and if not them then Canada!

I blame the United States for supporting Israel with a blind eye to the true problems of the Area and not being more neutral in making decisions. But the Bush administration is perhaps the most ignorant admin in world affairs then any I've seen.

Bush took office as a Isolationist.

What a fucking liar!

I wish he took that approach. He would have been a better Pres and we would only have to deal with him on the environment and upper class tax breaks.

Fucking goddam idiot asshole he is!

Where are the Romans when you need them. Now those were some emperialists if we are to have an Empire (christian at that empire)!

At least they had over two hundred years of peace without a war!

We couldn't go two admin without one!

A II Z

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One country is not the whole of the religion

Post by Rusted Iron » Sun May 02, 2004 9:53 pm

If I disagree with the policies of Italy, would I said to be bashing Catholics?

Disagreeing with the policies of Israel may be bashing Israel, however it's not bashing Jews. Remember, not all Jews live in Israel. Not all Jews support what Israel is doing and not all citizens of Israel approve of the actions of their government. (Sound familiar? Like not all the people in the US approve of the shit our nation is doing?)

That having been said, I'm not a big fan of religion. While there are a few that are innocent, most of them have been used, or are currently being used to justify a wide variety of evil acts. Most of them are. I don't think people would behave that much better without religion, but without the pretence of following the law of a god, perhaps there would be a bit more honesty... maybe not. Through out history, societies have needed the Other. Someone to rally againts and gang up on.


Man, I've taken this so off track...

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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon May 03, 2004 11:34 am

Oh you Catholic Basher, YOU!

only kidding!

I think that someone in the bush admin is reading this thread. I'm sure there are closet republican burners in the capitol- at least I hope so.

The bush admin is talking to baathists about re-enlisting in the rebuilding state.

It was so stupid to make a blanket edit of not allowing all of them in the reconstruction. The Baathist was estamblished long before Saddam and not all participated in many of his horrors. It would be like prohibiting republicans after the watergate affair- well almost.

A II Z

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon May 03, 2004 2:16 pm

DVD Burner wrote:Everyone that is being kidnapped, shot at and killed are truck drivers and contrators like Blackwater. (who deserve it as far as I'm concerned.)

I said that awhile back. So as it turns out, "PRIVATE CONTRACTORS" & the "CIA" were involved with the Iraqi prisoner abuse huh? Figures.
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue May 04, 2004 5:17 pm

Yea, lets hear it for "Outsourcing!"

Did you say. Nazi or Stalin Unlimited was the name of your company, Sir?

I find it interesting that the prison was where Saddam did the most of his torturing at!


Huh, the evil spirits made me do it General!


A II Z

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Post by DVD Burner » Tue May 04, 2004 5:41 pm

No wonder why there's not much of a difference between Iraqi and american prisoner abuse. One of the AMERICAN soldiers involved with the Iraqi prisoner abuse case is a prison gaurd in his civilian life.
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri May 07, 2004 12:34 pm

So do you still think we will know the truth about 911?



Tape of 9/11 Controllers Was Destroyed

May 7, 8:10 AM (ET)

By LESLIE MILLER





WASHINGTON (AP) - Air traffic controllers who handled two of the hijacked flights on Sept. 11, 2001, recorded their experiences shortly after the planes crashed into the World Trade Center but a supervisor destroyed the tape, government investigators said Thursday.

A report by Transportation Department Inspector General Kenneth Mead said the manager for the New York-area air traffic control center asked the controllers to make the recordings a few hours after the crashes in belief they would be important for law enforcement.

Investigators never heard it. Sometime between December 2001 and February 2002, an unidentified Federal Aviation Administration quality assurance manager crushed the cassette case in his hand, cut the tape into small pieces and threw them away in multiple trash cans, the report said.

"We were told that nobody ever listened to, transcribed or duplicated the tape," Mead said in the report sent to Sen. John McCain. The Arizona Republican asked the inspector general to look into how well the agency was cooperating with the independent panel investigating the attacks.

Neither manager told anyone outside the center - including their superiors and law enforcement officials - about the tape's existence, the report said. The Sept. 11 commission learned of the tape during interviews with New York air traffic control center personnel between September and October.

The destruction occurred even though the FAA sent a directive three days after the hijackings: "Retain and secure until further notice ALL Administrative/Operational data and records. ... If a question arises whether or not you should retain the data, RETAIN IT."

The quality assurance manager said he destroyed the tape because he felt it violated FAA policy calling for written statements from controllers who have handled a plane involved in an accident or other serious incident. He also said he felt the controllers were not in the right frame of mind to have consented to the taping, the report said.

The manager said he waited several months to destroy the tape because he promised the local controllers' union vice president that he would get rid of it once the control center's formal accident package was complete, the report said. That package was sent to FAA headquarters in November 2001.

The report did not characterize the tape's destruction as an attempted cover-up. But it said the recording could have helped provide a fuller explanation of what happened on Sept. 11.

"What those six controllers recounted in a group setting on Sept. 11, in their own voices, about what transpired that morning, are no longer available to assist any investigation or inform the public," the report said.

Mead said his office referred the case to federal prosecutors in New York, but they declined to prosecute because of lack of criminal intent.

FAA spokesman Greg Martin said the quality control manager was disciplined for violating the directive to keep everything relating to the hijackings and to turn them over to investigators. He said privacy considerations prevented him from disclosing how the manager was disciplined.

Martin said the FAA believes the tape is consistent with written statements and other materials provided to investigators. It "would not have added in any significant way to the information already provided to investigators and members of the 9-11 commission," Martin said.

The report said the controllers who made the tape had either talked to the hijacked planes that crashed into the World Trade Center or were working radar positions that intersected with the jetliners' flight paths.

The report concluded that there was "some measure of consistency" between witness statements later taken from the controllers and what was recorded on the tape. That conclusion was based on interviews with the six controllers and all 10 witnesses to the taping, and on sketchy notes taken during the tape recording. Also retained were radar data and recordings of radio transmissions from the cockpit.

John Carr, president of the air traffic controllers' union, said he did not know whether the manager did the right thing by destroying the tape.

"It was a traumatic time for him," he said. "He was the custodian for the darkest moment in our nation's history."
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat May 08, 2004 2:05 am

What was up with Norad?

Aren't they like one of the first defenses against a thermoneuclear attack. They couldn't get a jet into the air for like 30 or 40 minutes.

Yeah, bet the pilots were playing Top Gun on their Nitendo or something!

Just bending over and kissing my ass good bye!

A II Z

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Sources of Alternative Journalism

Post by ohafirenymph » Sat May 08, 2004 9:52 am

www.rainbowpuddle.com/11SeptPage.html

was put up in the days following 911 by veterans of Gulf War I and Vietnam. While the page needs some updating it still contains lots of valuable links to national and international media that present perspectives you might not read or hear in your daily news.

It's heavily weighted towards the outrageous concept that war and violence may not be the proper methods to end war and violence.

Thanks for checking out the site. There is nothing for sale there.
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(!!

Post by sparkletarte » Sun May 09, 2004 8:31 am

The US government is far too arrogant to learn anything.

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Re: Sources of Alternative Journalism

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sun May 09, 2004 1:46 pm

ohafirenymph wrote:Thanks for checking out the site. There is nothing for sale there.
Now that makes me very suspicious!

I hope GW Bush and his cronies get indicted for war crimes abuses!

1- first for going to war based on lies!

2- for breaking the Geneva Convention Rules

3- for using dirty bombs containing nuclear waste!

Everything we accused Saddam was found out to be a lie, but GW has commited them all! The Fucking Nazi!

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Post by DVD Burner » Sun May 09, 2004 10:22 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: Everything we accused Saddam was found out to be a lie, but GW has commited them all! The Fucking Nazi!

A II Z
Makes you wonder about the "Lost nazi gold" the bankers involved and the Bush family.

P.S. following Bush is the equivalent of following Enron. Image
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Post by Simply Joel » Mon May 10, 2004 10:31 am

cites, anyone?

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon May 10, 2004 11:01 am

Simply Joel wrote:cites, anyone?
about the "Lost nazi gold" the bankers involved and the Bush family or following Bush is the equivalent of following Enron?

If about the Nazi gold, your research wont get you any further than a little know fact that members of the CIA found it atop a mountain and took off with some of it.

The bigger question is, if covering up things is genetic.
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon May 10, 2004 12:40 pm

Also,
In my searches this always pops up. I don’t consider it to be that legitimate, but some parts of what I read in it has come up in several documents and Medias including the History channel.

So I guess taken with a grain of salt? :?

is this enough thread drift?
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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:58 pm

well looks like that necessary "mission accomplished" war in Iraq is doing just great.

Seems like the United States can keep fighting over there for a few more days or so huh?
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dead horse meat anyone?

Post by Simply Joel » Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:22 pm

DVD Burner wrote:well looks like that necessary "mission accomplished" war in Iraq is doing just great.

Seems like the United States can keep fighting over there for a few more days or so huh?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 30-18.html

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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:29 pm

Lots of suckers that will fall for this :

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 30-18.html

will have a rude awakening very soon.


none of the suggestions in this report will work but I tell you what will work are what some people that have been called terrorists are gonna do and get away with it. Why? Because they are smarter than the average Americans. :lol:

(Specific Americans at that. :lol: )
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