Why is Burning Man so white?

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Ron
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Post by Ron » Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:56 am

diane o'thirst wrote:.... But here's the point: We all came from Africa
Indeed, that's the point. :)
diane o'thirst wrote:....But at what point does a culture become "Native" to the geographical region it inhabits?
If you ask me, my answer is that "native" is an arbatray descriptor and anyone can claim it as they will.
diane o'thirst wrote: Can you stand a Hutu tribesman next to Shaquille O'Neal or a Somali next to Bill Cosby and say they're the same?
Sure, depending on the level of detail one choose to look at. Certainly they're all part of the same species. And, in this example, they're all the same gender. Again, it's really an arbitrary choice based on what degree of detail one feels is sufficient for the given question.

Honestly I was mostly reacting to the idea of their being "real," vs "un-real," europeans. We're all real, IMHO, and none of us really have the right to be the arbitrating authority on who is more, or less, a real whatever, as far as I can see...

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Post by stuart » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:09 pm

Here in the Great Outdoor- everybody camps, ski or even flyfish and I mean everyone.
so, um, does your latino population in montana compare to mine in L.A.?

so your point was?

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Post by stuart » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:13 pm

I will take on the native, non native argument.

I would say your race is native to a given geography when your racial traits reflect genetic adaptations that are advantageous to that geogrpahy and climate. Skin color is a fine example of this.

Us lilly white northern euros are melanin challenged in order to be able to eek out our vitamin D quota from our meager amount of solar radiation.

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Re: Why is Burning Man so white?

Post by WhatsInAName » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:37 pm

Well, well, well... I'm surprised how much interest my simple question has piqued, most of all I am TRULY BLOWN away at the amount of bigotry it has exposed (and in the Burner Community at that!) :(

So where do I begin - first of all I had no idea that under the cloak of enonymity so many burners have so much hostility. Well that may be fodder for another thread but to all the bigots I bid Adieu before I even bid you Hello. So take your hostility & stuff it...

Apologies to the rest of you, now to more constructive discusions. Lets be clear I never made an "issue" out of it nor do I see a problem with it. These are simple observations that I do care to discuss, analyse & UNDERSTAND.

I think it does have a lot to do with:
1. "Birds of a feather..." mentality, which another poster compared to his/her midget theory.
2. It does not have as much exposure/awareness in the non-white community
3. With their best intentions, some non-white folks feel patronised by other well meaning (white) people at BM

By the same token, I'm not convinced it has anything to do with:
1. Cultural difference: as in family bonds, church, existing communities, etc.
2. Socio-economic strata: a plurality of burners comes from the Bay Area. The same part that has an overwhelming number of Asian & East Indian Americans, that have the same/similar socio-economic status as their white counterparts, yet the Caucassians colleagues go in droves (yes I use the term loosely) to Burning Man year after year while the Asians, Indians (& Mexicans) don't! WHY?

Now what?
WhatsInAName

P.S.
I hope that puts the well meaning dissenters at ease that I am not a shit-stirring blah blah blah... rather someone that has a genuine interest in our "Experiences of Burning Man!"

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:43 pm

In Comming!
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Post by diane o'thirst » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:53 pm

Development of racial characteristics in response to the environment. Yes, that's a good benchmark. So here's the question to that: Since the human race has mostly removed itself from the process of natural selection/refinement, that's pretty much stopped. Indeed, those members of the gene pool that would, in a natural setting, be screened out by whatever means, are actually doing the bulk of the procreation: vis-a-vis, infertile couples are going in and conceiving and bearing litters of five, six, seven!

True, Euro-Americans would be more suited to the Mediterranean/Subarctic/north temperate band of latitudes they naturalized in, but they're everywhere now. The aforementioned Athabascans are related to the Ainu, which makes them a Caucasian tribe and they look it, physiologically. They'd also chew you a new one if you compared them to, say, the Aztecs and the Lakota.

At the moment I'm playing a character in a live-action Werewolf game; he's a Get of Fenris and he's also a member of the Ymir's Sweat camp — if you know the game, it's a nod to the historical Vinland colony of Newfoundland, which means he's a descendant of the Vinlanders. Anyone who knows the history of the colony knows that they were abandoned by their leader and melted away, disappearing — "Gone native," as it were. Sound familiar? Does "lost colony of Roanoake" and grey-eyed Crotoan ring a bell?

Anyway, this is all academic. We have Burning Man because we *don't* have Kwanzaa.
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:00 pm

WhatsInAName wrote:I hope that puts the well meaning dissenters at ease that I am not a shit-stirring blah blah blah... rather someone that has a genuine interest in our "Experiences of Burning Man!"
My apologies... I stand corrected in my initial impression of you. Glad you set that straight and hope you (or any other for that matter) didn't take my post the wrong way.

I think this could be a healthy dialogue if all involved handle it with the proper respect and avoid knee jerk reactions. Don't know much more to say about it at the moment.
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Re: Why is Burning Man so white?

Post by Tiahaar » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:47 pm

WhatsInAName wrote:Well, well, well... I'm surprised how much interest my simple question has piqued, most of all I am TRULY BLOWN away at the amount of bigotry it has exposed (and in the Burner Community at that!) ..... "
Oh, I say this delicately, but could it be you would like to believe that you found what you were looking for, hmmm WhatsInAName bless your heart? Reading back over the posts I find a healthy dialogue reflective of open and even humourous minds (I nearly split a seam over the LilyFlower/DVD thing back on page 2, that was funny!!!) Ahem. Seriously though, because a few folks declared this a non-issue for them you called in bigotry? Nanana...remember you don't want the rest of us thinking you are just a pot-stirrer, right? What were your favorite parts of the Burning Man experience?
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Post by Tiahaar » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:58 pm

(I nearly split a seam over the LilyFlower/DVD thing back on page 2, that was funny!!!)

Speaking of which....should I add WhatsInAName to that group? I like the discussion this thread has generated 8)
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:08 pm

Perhaps I am stumbling into a hornet's nest by responding. . .
1--I think that most discussions of race are greatly helped by an attitude that we have all grown up in an incidiously racist culture and carry the scars and damage (whether or not we are ideologically racist.) (Of course it's different for those that are not from the States.)
2--My guess is that's it's a varient of the "self-limiting" idea. There's a certain sort of "free expression of personality" that is much more acceptable to/for whites. When I was in college radio, the people were prodominently white too. Many of the people of color were those rather dreary politicized types that made me feel really awkward, because every conversation became a heavy sociolocial anaylisis. Not that I thought they were wrong, it just got to be too much after a while. Based on observation of and conversation with the one black (sorry, can you tell I grew up in the 70s?) man I became close to, he--while not unaware of color differences--felt different enough from his community of origen that he had a viewpoint about music ect closer to the white staff members than the political ones. (This also changed over time--when I first knew him he was a big Joy Division fan, later he got into jazz, and referred more often to African American factors.) Also, depending on the community in question, there is a certain amount of "race-traitor" (to g-r-e-a-t-l-y exagerate) guff that you may have to take from family and friends. Not easy.
3--I would not be surprised if socio-economic and varients in how you feel you are supposed to spend money are a factor.
4--As a side-bar to the "characteristics of the local environment" discussion, how do you feel about the idea that some "racial" varients may be related to "sexual selection" based on local/tribal ideals of beauty?
5--White (german, polish, jewish)
6--In general, I think "race" is less of an issue in BRC than elsewhere in the States. However, that doesn't mean that cultural styles don't come into play, making people of color feel awkward and less likely to return.

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Screw that...

Post by Rob the Wop » Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:07 pm

My question is...

Image

why is my ass so white?
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:55 pm

which reminds me, Where's Trey?
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:57 pm

Tiahaar wrote:(I nearly split a seam over the LilyFlower/DVD thing back on page 2, that was funny!!!)

Speaking of which....should I add WhatsInAName to that group? I like the discussion this thread has generated 8)
Thanks, I thought it was pretty funny too. :oops: :lol: :wink:
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Post by BAS » Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:51 pm

DVD Burner wrote:woha LeChatNoir, that was pretty intense.

Ok,

so does that mean that everyone else on this thread is black?
Nah, it means I have been away from my computer. I'm clear plastic! :P
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Re: Why is Burning Man so white?

Post by Bob » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:48 am

WhatsInAName wrote:....I am TRULY BLOWN...

...the Bay Area...has an overwhelming number of Asian & East Indian Americans...

...Asians...

...Indians...

...Mexicans...
Blows my mind, too.

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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:02 am

So.....

Anyhoo,

If I'm to assume that this may be you Imageand judging by the dancing, am I to guess what your ethnic background is?

Image

Just joking with ya. Really you dance really umm good. :shock:
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Post by THE ORIGINAL DIGIMAN » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:19 am

Why is Burning Man so white?

Because that's what happens when when you throw a great party. your "White hot". Ya just cant touch it.


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Post by VerbenaMaya » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:43 am

Thinking of what LeChatNoir was saying, and can you really judge a persons race by their skin? I look rather "white" but I am a mutt- Filippino, Spanish, mixed Off-White & a bit Cherokee. My mother endured people repeatedly asking her who's child she had kidnapped. One of my best friend looks "black" , is Lumbee Indian & White, gay, great artist & accomplished flutist. Another is a jewish, black, native american, black belt militant feminist married to a "white guy". I could go on, but they are all just labels. As is the label "freak", often commonly applied when you are seen to be doing anything outside what society deems is your acceptable stereotype image & behavior. I am attracted to BM because it says be whatever you want to be, and if you dont fit into the conformity stereotypes of the outside world, odds are you'll feel at home. What's in a Color? How white does one have to be to be white? Is it blood origin percentage or is it perceptions of how we define what is "white" behavior? I plan on going and having a good time, I have no intention of wearing an ingredient label while I am out there.
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Post by stuart » Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:07 pm

4--As a side-bar to the "characteristics of the local environment" discussion, how do you feel about the idea that some "racial" varients may be related to "sexual selection" based on local/tribal ideals of beauty?
there have been lots of nifty studies on this. There are elements of beauty that are universal like facial symmetry, long necks, appearance of healthiness. Those elements of local ideals of beauty that are part of an evolving culture generally do not stay trendy long enough for them to affect the genepool. An example of this is desired skin tone among whites. In our recent past it was desirable to have deathly white skin. This was connected to class. If you had tanned skin it meant you were out working in the sun i.e. you were working class. Now it is the polar opposite. Tanned skin points to resources and leisure. Wierd stuff.


as an aside, I found some of the posts to be a bit racist, but only in a way that we in our culture find it nearly impossible to avoid.


as another aside, looking at the census, forget about race, why do men outnumber women on the playa? Perhaps if we can examine this issue in it's slightly less divisive context we can get clues to the questions about race.

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Post by Ron » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:39 pm

stuart wrote:...I would say your race is native to a given geography when your racial traits reflect genetic adaptations that are advantageous to that geogrpahy and climate. Skin color is a fine example of this.....
I'd say you're running the possibility of having a self referential system, doing that. What exactly is a "racial trait," anyway? Skin color? Hmm, that's interesting.

There's a great book out there called Genes, Peoples, and Languages by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza that I highly recommend for deconstructing one's notion of race, and racial traits. In it he examines the results of various DNA studies done on lots of different "racial" and/or ethnic groups around the world. These studies examined how similiar, or dissimilar, the DNA of different racial groups actually are. In as much as skin color is a racial trait one would expect those groups with the most differing skin tone to also have the most differning DNA, right? We say dark folk are black because of their skin color, mostly, light folk are white due to it, and so on. However, it turns out that skin color is an *awful* predictor of the difference in DNA between people.

In fact, if one does a mathmatical analysis of the numerical difference between the DNA in various races, and then groups the results into the most similar piles possible, know what we find? Every ethnic group found outside of Africa has more in common with each other than any given ethnic group within Africa. In otherwords, using DNA to determine race (and if race is indeed something one inherets then DNA seems like the best indicator available to me) shows that that there are many different human races within and from Africa, and everyone else is baically the same race. The difference between the DNA of a south east asian and a far north western European is les than the difference between two arbitrary breeding groups in/from Africa seperated by a fraction of the distance.

Indeed, this makes sense when you consdier Africa as the place where we evolved. We've been there the longest, it's where we'd have had the most time to develop the most diversity, genetically. Furthermore, most folk "from" outside of Africa probabably decended from the, or a limited number, of breeding populations that left that contintent. It also increases the value of Africa for our species, it's where most of our genetic insurance policies live. If genetic diversity is important for other species, and it is, it's also imprortant for us humans, I think.

So be careful of defining racial traits, would be my advice. Back in my undergrad physical anthropology classes the proffs spent a bunch of time quantifying differences in ear wax type, hair construction, skin tone, facial ratios, finger print patterns, and so on and finding mathematical correlations between them and what the profs already considered racial groups. As it turns out, based on DNA, most of those racial groupings were scientifically erroneous.

Race, it seems to me, is a social construction more than one of natural selection and human evolution, in as much as the nature vs. nurture idea has any validity at all. As such the things we've been trained to think mean race, like skin color, certaintly do mean race when we use them to inform our actions and bigotry. But when we look to DNA we find that those same "racial traits," don't index with DNA differences at all....

Ron, the long winded...;)

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Post by stuart » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:38 pm

I'd say you're running the possibility of having a self referential system, doing that. What exactly is a "racial trait," anyway? Skin color? Hmm, that's interesting.
I agree with some of what you are saying but you are making a bunch of assumptions about what I am saying. I am not talkin bout comparing DNA. I am talking about emergent physical characteristics. You might say My DNA is similar to someone who is a native of southern africa, but I can assure you that no one will misstake us as relatives.

besides that, skin color is only one of many physical characterstics I would refer to as adapted to a regions climate. There is nothing sinister in the admission that as humans fanned out into the world the various 'clines' adapted to their environments. I am not saying one group has a bigger brain case than the other. I am simply saying I have lighter skin because where my (recent) ancestors are from we have a need to get the same amount of vitamin D from a lot less sun. Is that so wrong? I hardly feel it makes me a bigot.

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Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:31 pm

stuart wrote: as another aside, looking at the census, forget about race, why do men outnumber women on the playa? Perhaps if we can examine this issue in it's slightly less divisive context we can get clues to the questions about race.
I think it's economics. It's expensive to go to Burning Man. Probably more men have the disposable income for it. Statistics will demonstrate that, although I'll admit I have no specific source to quote.

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Post by Ron » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:23 am

stuart wrote:....I agree with some of what you are saying but you are making a bunch of assumptions about what I am saying. I am not talkin bout comparing DNA. I am talking about emergent physical characteristics.
I understand that. My point is that your "emergent physcial characterics," is a subjective criteria for defining race that makes a self referencial system that does not check out with the DNA based analysis. I'm saying that skin color, while an obvious trait to the eyes, does not constitute a reliable marker for indicating differences in genetics between people. If you want to use it as an indicator of race, then you must also admit that "race," as you're using the term, is not genetically based. For, if it were, then those race markers you're using would be reflected in our DNA.

(And, BTW, I do believe that most of the time "race," is a socially created thing...)
stuart wrote:...You might say My DNA is similar to someone who is a native of southern africa, but I can assure you that no one will misstake us as relatives.
Which, again, demonstrates my point. Those traits which we have considered to be "racial," it turns out aren't. While my short, blonde, mother may never be the person folk would guess birthed me, nevertheless the DNA shows she did. That tells me that clues we're using to inform our guesses aren't as accurate as we'd like to think they are. The things we've used to define who is what, are not, physically, very accurate. Wether or not it *looks* like you're closely related to that person, you are.
stuart wrote:...
... I am simply saying I have lighter skin because where my (recent) ancestors are from we have a need to get the same amount of vitamin D from a lot less sun. Is that so wrong? I hardly feel it makes me a bigot.
And I didn't say you were a bigot. I did say that it turns out the most obvious traits, like skin color, do not index with differences in DNA between breeding populations. This means that they are not good indications of how far removed from each other those breeding populations are, in terms of evoluationary background. Just like the fact the sun appears to move across the sky does not mean that the earth is in the center of the universe, it's also true that differences in skin color, and other obvious physical traits, do not mean that those folk are genetically removed from each other.

Obvious physcial differences do a great job supporting bigotry, that I said and agree with. They do a poor job indicitating differences in DNA. As for your attitudes, I don't know you and couldn't say. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about ways of thinking and how well earlier data lines up with more modern data. We use to think the sun orbited the earth because any fool could see that it traveled across the sky, while we remained stationary. Further observations showed that the data of how it appeared to be happening was misleading. For all it looked like the sun orbited the earth, in fact it was the other way around. For all it looks like skin tone should be a good indicator of genetic differences, it really isn't.

Ron

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Post by stuart » Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:38 am

While my short, blonde, mother may never be the person folk would guess birthed me, nevertheless the DNA shows she did.
A critital enough DNA analysis would show that you were the product of your mothers and fathers DNA combining in such a way that dominant as opposed to recessive genetic characteristics were manifested.

I might be misunderstanding you, but I see you on the one hand stating that DNA is the obvious choice for classifying race and on the other saying it is a poor indicator of race. We can drop the term of race if you like and say cline or something else but I am not sure this sidebar addresses my original statement about adaptation or the OP.


there are a bunch of defs from webster, this is the one I am thinking about

c : a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type

but just remember, I am Irish, and the Irish are the blacks of Europe.

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I suppose I'm obigated to wade back in. . .

Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:02 pm

No arguement here on the basic idea that "race" is a muddy classification at best that's more about the internal workings of society than any actual difference. (My favorite was reading a book that discussed some 18th/19th century idea that ended up using beards as a racial characteristic, with some typical white men are more manly because of their manlier beards undertones. Nothing like reading something completely out of date to point out how silly these systems are.)

So, do "racial" "charateristics" mean anything? Some do seem to be adaptions (to avoid skin color and the attendent contentions, let us note the stocky bodies and--is it more total or more oxgenated?--blood in populations that have been in the Andes a while or the stockier bodies--again--of the Inuit) to local conditions, and some seem to be more random but how did they get established in populations anyway? At least enough for the human brain to see patterns? Or is the whole idea of "race" simply a phantom made by our brain's adaptive ability to make patterns out of fragments with the side effect of occationally creating patterns out of coincidence?

Thanks for the refutation of my suggestion, Stuart. If the studies are truly "nifty" it might be fun to see them, I like a good, accessible study. If not, I'll take your word for it, because it means someone has spent a lot more time thinking it through than I have. As you can see, I still have some trouble letting go of that line of thought, but it might be that I just don't like the acceptance of randomness rather than pattern.

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Post by actiongrl » Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:43 pm

1) Not too many know of Burningman
2) a few of the ones that may know about Burningman feel it's for freaks only
3) Some feel uncomfortable or may feel like they may be unwelcome.
4) Like most people they feel they are not artists or have anything to offer
It could be argued that this is probably stopping lots of "white" folks from coming, too. Point?

I don't mind seeing this discussion - it's interesting to see what everyone thinks. But as soon as someone suggests we "do something about it" because it's a problem, I'm going to heave. Let people do what comes naturally to them; Burning Man has always grown by word of mouth, and I think that any group/subsect of the human race that isn't represented widely at the event will hear about it eventually, and the interested parties from within that subsect will attend if they'd like.
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Post by unjonharley » Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:52 pm

Our camp was surronded by Russian campers. I asked for a count. They said over 180. They were from SF and NY some from over seas. Good people, hope they camp near me this year.
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Post by Badger » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:03 pm

But as soon as someone suggests we "do something about it" because it's a problem, I'm going to heave.
Glad we have the same gag reflex AG. I've seen it come about in threads remarkably similar to this one. The suggestion the 'we' need to something so that 'they' can do what the rest of us are finding cool/interesting/stimulating/significant is the height of arrogance and presumption. It suggests that we owe it to another group or community to inform them of something we deign is (or might be) necessary for them to enjoy or learn from while in the process assuaging guilty white folks about coming here and enjoying themselves in what IS very much an event attended by a majority of caucasian folks.

BTW, I don't mean to suggest that that's the OP's intent in starting this thread.
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Post by Stephen Lynn » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:21 pm

All's I know is that a few years back I showed the black gal I was dating at the time several photos from my recent Burning Man experience.
She looked at them, shook her head, and said,
"Man, you white people are crazy."

Just because there are certain aspects that sometimes are more prevalent in one group(based on race, religion, income, political affiliation, height, weight, amount of teeth you have, etc) than another doesn't mean that pointing them out reflects some kind of bias or fear or prejudice.
I mean, you can go all "Nietsche" on us and say there is no "truth" if you wish. But I'm just keepin' it real.

I was raised rather lower-middle class in Long Beach, CA, a port town,
in the early/mid-70s; VERY racially mixed. My friends were black, Hispanic, recent arrivals from SouthEast Asia, whatever.
Even still, with our shared geography and experiences, on the whole
there were still are a lot of differences. But decent people reach out and make it work and know better than to paint with too broad a brush.

Frankly, I'd like a little more "Freaknic" at BMan.
I was thinking of creating "Ghetto Booty Camp", just to bring a little LBC to the playa. I've seen several black folks at Burning Man, but not enough.
Every black gal I've seen immediately grabs my attention and are very beautiful.
I get a bit uneasy seeing too many white people in one place, but that's just my prejudice talking, eh?
Fer shizzle.
a.k.a. Gargoyle

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LeChatNoir
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Location: Louisville, Ky

Post by LeChatNoir » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:33 pm

I agree, actiongrl. That’d be messing with the flow. That was part of what I was trying to say within my long, ramble post earlier. The event is what it is and I am occasionally curious as to why. Not to perceive ways to change it, but to understand what my acute desire to attend says about myself. That’s what I want to learn more about.
Stephen Lynn wrote:I get a bit uneasy seeing too many white people in one place, but that's just my prejudice talking, eh?


Yep, I understand this perspective, too as mentioned earlier. But when I look at Burning Man, I don’t get that uneasy feeling like I’ve had sometimes before. The people I’m going with this year and the things I’ve seen about it so far lead me to believe that it just doesn’t matter there (the more white than not thing I mean). I get the impression that you could show up with any skin color and be accepted without even an eye being blinked. In fact, the funkier the color the better...
Stephen Lynn wrote:Frankly, I'd like a little more "Freaknic" at BMan
Well... Show up, whoever you are, and throw what you got in the pot... that’s what I say. Then let it flow where it will of it’s own volition.
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather

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