Dutch Auctions are the answer for how tickets should work

[melodiousdirge]

(way overstated) scalping problem.

I realize that BORG does actively try to intercept and interfere with scalping, but I submit there aren't a whole lot of numbers available to base the 'overstated' portion of your statement on. Maybe there are from previous years, but things are changing fast. How do you know half the tickets yesterday weren't snapped up by people running 100 spoofed IP addresses?

[vargaso]

Those are the people most likely to be able to afford throwing a higher amount at the tickets in the first place, and it'll be worth it to them because they know people will pay outrageous prices once they're quickly sold-out. This would do zero in solving any (way overstated) scalping problem. Counterfeiting is much more of a problem than real scalping, and the Dutch Oven plan would drive that through the roof.

You may be correct; I guess it depends how the actual auction went. If tickets did sell out at $1000 as some are speculating they would, then scalpers could still make profits, but it takes a bit of the wind out of their sails if they have to hang $1000 out there to make a $1500 sale instead of scamming the system with software and getting tickets for $390 to turn around at $1500.

Software like this: http://ticketbots.net/products.asp?page ... nner%20Bot

From the description:
"The bot grabs hundreds of tickets for multiple event simultaneously and let you choose cream tickets from them to buy with just a single click."

Only $750, what a bargain. I can't imagine people aren't using this very product for Burning Man tickets. It includes "multiple proxies for different threads," meaning Ticketfly server thinks each proxy is a unique user, so that the 2 ticket limit isn't a problem for someone running this software. No tech skills needed, even.

[ACfromSAC]

I didn't read the entire book... I mean post... and there was no Cliff's Notes available, but from what I read it sounds like a great way to finally solve that pesky radical inclusion problem. Be gone ye peasants who can't afford tickets at double the current cost!

[remi]

I always have been a big believer that non transferable tickets would solve all.. but the powers that be keep giving mediocre reasons why that shant be used... even thought it's more then obvious that the pro's outnumber the con's.

[666isMONEY]

I liked it when you could buy three tiers of tix.

$800 pre-sale is too much, I could afford more than the $466 I paid this year, I usually give a donation too.

[melodiousdirge]

I didn't read the entire book... I mean post... and there was no Cliff's Notes available, but from what I read it sounds like a great way to finally solve that pesky radical inclusion problem. Be gone ye peasants who can't afford tickets at double the current cost!

"I didn't read it the part where my exact problem was discussed because I'm lazy but I want to say something snarky and useless anyway"

[vpismo]

Ticket prices did rise and sales at the gate were (mostly) stopped to harness in the growth, but mostly I think it's on that linear path because the playa is harsh and remote -- it takes work and time to come to BRC and is supposed to.

The real problem is too many people want to go and there are not enough spots. IMHO there are two ways to solve that:
1. Make another burning man event (discussed ad nauseam in another thread)
2. Make Burning Man more harsh. They can't make it much more remote but they could make it more harsh. How about no RV's? Or maybe charge RV's a premium price? Maybe RV's and houses for camp heads and artists only and everyone else in tents. Charge extra for various pop up housing units? Tents could be the same price and ban everything else. That would make the experience truly harsh and more meritocratic. I for one could not convince my wife to go if an RV wasn't an option.

[melodiousdirge]

They can't make it much more remote

Oh hell yes they could. 2 hour drive from reno is hardly remote.

Or maybe charge RV's a premium price?

Something like this I could get on board with. This might direct the cost penalties preferentially to people who can afford it. Vehicle pass; $50. RV Pass; $150. RV Pass for 25+ feet: $250... etc.

[Jovankat]

There would be a lot of folks today willing to pay $800 for a ticket who passed on the opportunity when offered it a few weeks ago in the Presale.

How true. Peace of mind,especially for those coming from a good distance, had to be worth $400. In retrospect of course.

THAT'S THE ANSWER!!!!!! Put the pre-sale expensive tickets AFTER the regular sale and just call it the post-sale. People will be happy to pay the higher price and nobody can be called an elitist anymore for waiting to buy the expensive tickets. WOW a win-win.

I wasn't suggesting that at all. I was making the point that the concept of how much a ticket is worth is tied to how scarce they are.

[bradtem]

Indeed, the use of non-transferable tickets has been discussed for a while and the BMOrg does not wish to do it with the bulk of tickets, but it is considered appropriate for subsidy tickets, which is not a bad compromise. It is only tickets that are sold below market that need protection from scalping. Absent people who change their minds between the sale and the event, you can't scalp auction tickets because anybody willing to pay more than the price would have been in the auction and gotten tickets. You can only scalp to those who did not bid their true heart, and people who didn't know they wanted to go at the time of the sale.

For those who like randomness -- and there are many, since the BMOrg decided in 2012 to try that as the main allocation method -- it unfortunately is very difficult to implement. As they saw in 2012, if there's a free lottery, lots of people enter as many times as they can. If it's a web-site "who clicks at the right time" lottery then they use ticket buying software, or keep open several buying windows, or recruit friends. (A very simple strategy is if the ticket maximum is 4, and you have 4 people, all 4 people request 4 tickets during the sale. One of you is likely to win, and you sell the others -- at face value or a profit as your ethics suit you.)

But aside from being hard to implement, randomness wreaks havoc. Camps find half their group is without tickets. People don't know if they're going until February. (Tried to rent an RV for that week in the SFBA after February?) There is little to like about it other than a perceived "fairness."

I a society with relative income equality, auctions actually do solve shortages. They solve them by allocating tickets to those who are most willing to give up the money. With income inequality, this switches so that for some it is based on who is able, rather than willing, to spend the money. Which is why you fund subsidy tickets. You can't solve the shortage of subsidy tickets with an auction or other monetary means, that's true. Tickets sold below market need another scheme. That conflict with radical inclusion may be impossible to solve.

While people talk about radical inclusion, it is not well understood. Burning Man is actually quite exclusive in many ways. It is limited to those who can take up that much time and get to the remote location. It is limited to those able to handle the rough physical conditions. Think of every reason people have told you they won't go to Burning Man, other than "it doesn't sound like my scene." Each of those other reasons is a way in which it is exclusive. We get to talk about radical inclusion because it is not exclusive in certain realms that are unusual. We don't care how freaky you are, and we try to welcome you no matter what -- if you can come.

For a long time, though, the BLM cap was not the biggest barrier. Until 2011, the event did not reach its cap. (The cap was a factor in decisions like not having weekend sales or gate sales of any kind.)

I can understand that in time, demand might get so high that you could have 70,000 people each willing to cough up $1K. We're not remotely there yet, and I suspect we don't ever get there. Other events get started, other barriers to attend get applied to push people to go to the other events. Perhaps the only way to go to the Gerlach Regional Burn is to first attend another regional, thus showing a very high commitment. Who knows? We'll burn that bridge when we come to it.

[The CO]

Tapping the surplus demand of the burner community, rather than discarding it or letting scalpers take it, allows us to have more of what we want inside the community. More art. More services. An efficient no-wait gate. Cleaner potties. More BRAF taking art out into the community. Better playa restoration.

If you think the solution to the highlighted bits up there is as simple as throwing money at it, you have a great deal to learn about this event.

[melodiousdirge]

We're not remotely there yet, and I suspect we don't ever get there.

I suspect that you're incorrect in that, but the point is a bit moot.

Personally, despite the massive shakeup, the incredible bitching, and the tearing up of large camps that the lottery caused - it's a solution that fits many people and probably the one that suits the principles the best. On the other hand I probably feel that way because I don't really give a shit if White Ocean is there or not. I'd rather see a few hundred individuals with their individual contributions, but that's just me.

[ACfromSAC]

I didn't read the entire book... I mean post... and there was no Cliff's Notes available, but from what I read it sounds like a great way to finally solve that pesky radical inclusion problem. Be gone ye peasants who can't afford tickets at double the current cost!

"I didn't read it the part where my exact problem was discussed because I'm lazy but I want to say something snarky and useless anyway"

Precisely. No Cliff's required to understand my post.

[ACfromSAC]

Also, +1 to all tickets being transferrable only through STEP. Still amazed this hasn't happened.

[bradtem]

Tapping the surplus demand of the burner community, rather than discarding it or letting scalpers take it, allows us to have more of what we want inside the community. More art. More services. An efficient no-wait gate. Cleaner potties. More BRAF taking art out into the community. Better playa restoration.

If you think the solution to the highlighted bits up there is as simple as throwing money at it, you have a great deal to learn about this event.

Saying that money can help those problems is not the same as saying you can solve them by pushing a button and spending more money. More money is a tool that can be used to help. For example, many of the activities listed are handled by volunteers, and it would take a huge amount of money to have paid staff do it, since mixing paid staff and volunteers is difficult. But you can apply money to make it easier for volunteers to do their jobs, or make their jobs easier so more people are willing or able to volunteer. You can train volunteers better, you can get them technology. WIth the potties, that is not a volunteer-run service, and it seems likely that is a place where money could more simply make an improvement.

[The CO]

Not derail things, but:

Gate has been doing exactly what you describe, but until there is more than a single 2 lane highway for access to the event, there will always be a wait at the gait.

Potties will not get cleaner until humans stop acting like monkeys. USS does an amazing job, especially when you consider that BRC is the second largest event as far as toilets in the united states. Bonnaroo is the only event with more shitters than us. They literally had every available truck in the west out there. Stop people from making a mess to get cleaner toilets.

Playa restoration: All volunteer crew. If you think it needs improvement, that is quite a fuck you to them, as they are the ones that enable us to continue getting a permit each year. To say that they could improve is BS.

[mdmf007]

You offer up 50,000 tickets at 1000 each and they will still all be gone in one day. Now only those that can spend a 1000 on a ticket are going.

[vargaso]

We're not remotely there yet, and I suspect we don't ever get there.

... because I don't really give a shit if White Ocean is there or not. I'd rather see a few hundred individuals with their individual contributions, but that's just me.

Hell yes to that.

[bradtem]

I do not think playa restoration does a bad job. Why do you take such an antagonistic attitude and turn "perhaps we could make their job easier" into "that's a fuck you to them?"

However, I do not understand why the fact that there is only a 2 lane highway to the playa causes the on playa wait at the gate to be longer. If anything, the choke of the road should even out the flow modestly and make doing the gate easier, not harder. It's a common experience (outside of the few hours around opening) to have a reasonably quick trip up 447 and onto the playa to then face a long wait at the gate.

[jneilvindy]

Not derail things, but:

Gate has been doing exactly what you describe, but until there is more than a single 2 lane highway for access to the event, there will always be a wait at the gait.

Potties will not get cleaner until humans stop acting like monkeys. USS does an amazing job, especially when you consider that BRC is the second largest event as far as toilets in the united states. Bonnaroo is the only event with more shitters than us. They literally had every available truck in the west out there. Stop people from making a mess to get cleaner toilets.

Playa restoration: All volunteer crew. If you think it needs improvement, that is quite a fuck you to them, as they are the ones that enable us to continue getting a permit each year. To say that they could improve is BS.

Maybe I got lucky but every potti I visited the entire week was in great condition and very clean. One of them had a broken latch on the door but hey, I was peeing so it didn't bother me.

[666isMONEY]

Two-lane highway leaving is a bottleneck but for some as yet unexplained reason there was no bottleneck last year at Exodus.

[The CO]

I do not think playa restoration does a bad job. Why do you take such an antagonistic attitude and turn "perhaps we could make their job easier""Better playa restoration." (actual quote) into "that's a fuck you to them?"

However, I do not understand why the fact that there is only a 2 lane highway to the playa causes the on playa wait at the gate to be longer. If anything, the choke of the road should even out the flow modestly and make doing the gate easier, not harder. It's a common experience (outside of the few hours around opening) to have a reasonably quick trip up 447 and onto the playa to then face a long wait at the gate.

As I said, I think you have a lot to learn about the event.

I get antagonistic when I see my fellow DPW not being appreciated.

[bradtem]

Two-lane highway leaving is a bottleneck but for some as yet unexplained reason there was no bottleneck last year at Exodus.

Surely, but what I didn't understand was the claim that the highway capacity related to the wait to get in at the gate.

The Exodus crew learns new things every year to help improve things, but there are some physical limitations that still sit in the way. A major shift like that requires people to have changed their behaviour leaving. Not out of the question. For example, the combination of a 4 hour gate wait to get in and 7 hour trip to get out in 2013 was quite frustrating (particularly because I was already changing the pattern and arrived and left at times that normally should not have had such waits) and that makes me even more eager to arrive/leave at different times. But 11 hours of time on playa for us is worth more than the price of a ticket to me.

To "The CO" -- if you're going to continue to take my remarks as a fuck you, even after having read a statement that they are not a fuck you, our discussion has ended.

[melodiousdirge]

I get antagonistic when I see my fellow DPW not being appreciated.

The butthurt is strong.

[vargaso]

I do not think playa restoration does a bad job. Why do you take such an antagonistic attitude and turn "perhaps we could make their job easier""Better playa restoration." (actual quote) into "that's a fuck you to them?"

However, I do not understand why the fact that there is only a 2 lane highway to the playa causes the on playa wait at the gate to be longer. If anything, the choke of the road should even out the flow modestly and make doing the gate easier, not harder. It's a common experience (outside of the few hours around opening) to have a reasonably quick trip up 447 and onto the playa to then face a long wait at the gate.

As I said, I think you have a lot to learn about the event.

I get antagonistic when I see my fellow DPW not being appreciated.

DPW attitude at its finest, right there.

[The CO]

Nah, DPW at it's finest is when 30-40 of them are out for a month plus cleaning up after the 70,000 of us that only stay for a week or two.

[maladroit]

I'll have to remember to partially bury a thoughtful thank-you note along with a gift card to Starbucks.

[vargaso]

Nah, DPW at it's finest is when 30-40 of them are out for a month plus cleaning up after the 70,000 of us that only stay for a week or two.

Oh they do that, really? There should be a parade then, or maybe someone should write multiple blog posts about it on the Burning Blog, or perhaps a DPW member him/herself should tell everyone within earshot how much work they do. Yes, the DPW does not get enough uncritical hero worship, for sure.

[Eric]

(way overstated) scalping problem.

I realize that BORG does actively try to intercept and interfere with scalping, but I submit there aren't a whole lot of numbers available to base the 'overstated' portion of your statement on. Maybe there are from previous years, but things are changing fast. How do you know half the tickets yesterday weren't snapped up by people running 100 spoofed IP addresses?

How do you know they were? We're both running on exactly the same information.

[some seeing eye]

Two-lane highway leaving is a bottleneck but for some as yet unexplained reason there was no bottleneck last year at Exodus.

The reason is that the vehicle pass system worked, the pulsing or whatever it is called now worked to keep the flow on 447 about 1000 vehicles per hour, the Twitter and BMIR gave people better information on when to leave their camp, and burners are sometimes smart and well behaved when it is useful. Minimizing stupid passing and falling asleep accidents is also a big part of it and varies each year.

It is a system of pieces designed by Larry & Co and LEO which worked.

This thread is getting off track....