The Contraption 2.0

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:01 am

Yestergay the towel was almost in the ring..

Two days of struggle and negitive progress.. So the cat put me down for a nap.. Woke up went to the shop, droped every nut and bolt.. them reassembled the whole thing.. Everything fell into it's slot..

Every thing is free hand made.. 1/4 inch off is not bad until the other end of 8 feet.. Then it's 1/4 mile off..

I had broken the first rule.. Do not tighten anything until it's all hooked up..

Now Back to work..

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:12 am

Fciron investigated those and suggested it to me a couple of weeks ago. I think it takes a large volume of steam to drive an injector. I think Iâ€™ll use an electric pump at first just for reliability. Then after a while of figuring things out and learning my way around a working system, then maybe something else more fitting.

I had broken the first rule.. Do not tighten anything until it's all hooked up..

That's a rule I still forget at times. Glad things feel into place on the second try. That struggle with no progress gets to you after a while. That's when I just have to walk away for a bit, but that's harder than it seems sometimes.

Dusza Beben · Post by **Dusza Beben** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:20 am

It, also just dawned on me that you visit the same forum occasionally
Le Chat.
"The steam God" as I think of him, is HAC on the SP forum.

Heck, just throw up a post about the project in tactile and he'll be all over it!
I'll PM him about this thread.

DB

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:21 pm

I'll try and swing by over there tonight. Haven't been in a while and need to check up on things on that board anyway.

stargeezer · Post by **stargeezer** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:50 pm

LCN: I have been enjoying this discussion and keep expecting to hear that it is fully operational. Sorry to hear about the latest set-back.

Now, coming from someone who has never worked on a steam engine, so consider the source, I have a question.

Is your main problem due to the thermal mass of the converted engine?

I have been looking at small steam engines and one thing they all have in common is that they have a very small thermal mass. That large casting can consume a lot of energy just to heat up. Would it be possible to open the valves and send steam through the engine to preheat it before you try to operate it. Looking at one of the posts above, it looks like the engine should be up around 300 to prevent the steam from condensing and losing all the energy.

Good Luck! I will keep watching for the good news.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:21 pm

Hey stargeezer!

The engine does get pretty hotâ€¦ enough to boil off any water that might drip onto it. But Iâ€™m sure it loses heat quickly as well, but I suspect there's something else at work here too. Even with the engine this hot it doesnâ€™t really respond and certainly can't start on ts own. Puzzlingâ€¦

Iâ€™m not giving up on it, just putting it on the back burner for a bit. The plan is shifting now to the internal combustion to insure a fun time for everyone on the playa. Afterwards I can relax and putz around with the steam as I can afford materials and time. I may even try machining an engine out by following the plans I purchased earlier. Who knows? Itâ€™ll be fun whatever it becomes and will continue to be an interactive project.

stargeezer · Post by **stargeezer** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:37 pm

LCN this is an interesting puzzle. It sounds like the ICE is the best idea for this year, but I am sure curious what the problem is with the steam and I am glad you will dig into it more later!!

Just another off the wall idea, could the valve timing be wrong for steam? Again, I have no experience directly with steam engines, but something keeps bugging me about the difference between compressed air and steam power. I know under the proper conditions, steam engines have a tremendous amount of torque, so it just does not make sense that it does not want to start.

While the answer is not obvious right not, I bet when you figure it out it will be one of those moments where you wonder why it took so long and everything will make perfect sense!!

Good luck with the ICE upgrade and enjoy it out on the playa!!!

stargeezer · Post by **stargeezer** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:48 pm

One last thought before I return to my normal lurking mode!!!

Early on you were debating between using all four cylinders, or just two, and as I remember, you went with four. When you get back to playing with this, I am wondering if you could learn a little by going to a 2+2 arrangement. Run two cylinders with compressed air to keep the engine turning, and apply steam to the other two. You could play with a wide range of variables, and just watch for the engine speed to be altered. Once you find the correct combination, you could then take what you learned and convert back to a four cylinder steam.

I wish you luck, and please keep posting so we can see your progress!!

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:24 pm

Good suggestions, stargeezer. I'll definitely keep everyone posted when the steam is revisited. I'm the kind of nutcase that can patiently puzzle on a riddle for months, even years, so this will be explored again eventually. But yep, ICE is the way to go I think for now, and speaking of which...

Yesterday was spent on a roadtrip to a place outside of Cleveland, almost to Pennsylvania, to met Ed (the fellow who had the engines) and pick up some rusty iron. Iâ€™m very glad I chose to drive up there and check them out firsthand, rather than ship it blindly, because when I got there, I found that there were some problems with the one Iâ€™d intended to get. I was told the engine tech had it running smoothly a day prior but it was having some throttle control issues at that moment. It kept trying to run away and was difficult to keep at a reasonable RPM, jumping around to the point of being very unnerving, actually. I noticed that there had been some repairs to the head done at some point prior, and upon further inspection, it was found that there was another un-repaired crack in the head along the underside. I donâ€™t know if this had anything to do with the issues it was having, but I honestly donâ€˜t think the fellow who was selling it had noticed it because he got very quiet for a moment when I mentioned the problem. He offered to give me a replacement head and rebuild the carburetor for free, which I felt was a nice gesture.

But, man... I don't need another ify project at this point.

When we first arrived, I also asked him about what other engines he might have, and he replied that the only ones he had of a suitable size hadnâ€™t been gone over yet. He was told that one recent purchase was in running condition, but hadnâ€™t verified this. This was something he seemed reluctant to pursue at first, but after finding the cracked head, I asked if we could check them out and he seemed to warm up to the idea.

He pulled the one heâ€™d mentioned previously out of the inspection queue and rolled it up front. We both sat down to give it the once over.

Bearings were in good shapeâ€¦

Oil and grease looked okâ€¦

Had good compressionâ€¦

He put a little gas in the bowl and gave the flywheel a spinâ€¦

Nothing.

Roll around to the compression stroke and gave it another spinâ€¦

Nothingâ€¦ this went on for a couple more tries.

Remove and clean the spark plug, replace and try it againâ€¦

It started right up!

It was able to be adjusted anywhere from a ripping speed down to a â€œSunday driveâ€

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:44 pm

I love this! Oh, steam would (will) be cool but this is every bit as funky and will probably be less trouble overall. And you won't need tons of water.
I can't wait to see this motoring across the playa.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:26 am

Itâ€™ll be the only vehicle, for thousands of miles with three flywheels.

That seems like a lot of extra weight to move around, any way to get double duty out of either the contraptions or the motors?

Oh forget I asked that who needs the extra complication,...

Dusza Beben · Post by **Dusza Beben** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:03 am

~doin' the happy dance~
Hey! You were in my neck of the woods!
Wish I'd known as we could have shown you some NE Ohio
hospitality.
That engine is a BEAUTY! They have such a great sound.

DB

Dusza Beben · Post by **Dusza Beben** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:14 am

Here's another hercules so's to get an idea of the cool factor.

[youtube][/youtube]

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:18 am

The last weekend of this month is the Great Steam Up just up the road from me..

There will be steamer tractors as big as a house and little ones bout four foot long..

A steam powered lumber mill.. And steam powered ice cream makers..

A 12 foot fly wheel.. The engine is being reconstructed..

Then there is a real "old" blacksmith shop"work"

And in the middle of all this are hit and miss engines.. Again some as big as a house and some the size of two foot balls..

karine · Post by **karine** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:04 pm

I might be talked in to going to some "gatherings" like those, now!
This whole experience has been quite educational for me. and I've really been enjoying every minute of it.

I took some video of the new Hercules in motion while we were up near Cleveland. It's more beautiful up there in Northern Ohio than anyone had told me!

Okay - here's a link to the vid:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v685/ ... 130877.flv

Dusza Beben · Post by **Dusza Beben** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:04 am

karine wrote: It's more beautiful up there in Northern Ohio than anyone had told me!

Okay - here's a link to the vid:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v685/ ... 130877.flv

Shhh! Now everybody knows!

DB

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:15 am

karine wrote:I might be talked in to going to some "gatherings" like those, now!
This whole experience has been quite educational for me. and I've really been enjoying every minute of it.

I took some video of the new Hercules in motion while we were up near Cleveland. It's more beautiful up there in Northern Ohio than anyone had told me!

Okay - here's a link to the vid:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v685/ ... 130877.flv

The Cat has a vidio disc of last years Steam Up.. Also, You have not been to Gods contry until you come to the other coast where I live..

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:56 pm

Well? Are you out driving it Le Chat?

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:43 pm

I can picture him explaining to a highway patrolman that heâ€™s a member of a reformed Amish group and the contraption being an expression of his religions difference from the traditional modes of transportation and a difference from secular culture and thatâ€™s why he isnâ€™t required to have it licensed or insured ,... no really

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:41 pm

Heh Hehâ€¦

Nope, not driving it yet. Spent the week with an installation on bill paying side of the shop that damn near busted my butt. Spent today trying to rest some in between cleaning on the shop in prep for whatâ€˜s next. And of course this evening I worked on the engine.

I'm really starting to become enamored with this little thing the more I peck around on it. And I've found some interesting stuff about the history of Hercules Engines and the XK series. The K meant it had a slightly modified carb that could also run on Kerosene. The carb has a side bowl for starting. Gas is always used in this bowl for getting it warmed up, then you switch over to the main tank, which could be either gas or kerosene (Side Note: This makes me wonder about veg oil as well).. And apparently the red paint means it was marketed via Sears as an â€œEconomyâ€

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:58 pm

I'm glad to hear that you're happy and interested in the old gas engine.
I think it's every bit as cool as steam would have been (or will be).
I sorta hope this is a big enough engine to power the Contraption, 1 1/2 HP doesn't sound like it is, but I don't know the torque it makes... if it's making 1 1/2 HP at super-low RPM it ought to be OK.

Dusza Beben · Post by **Dusza Beben** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:16 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:I'm glad to hear that you're happy and interested in the old gas engine.
I think it's every bit as cool as steam would have been (or will be).
I sorta hope this is a big enough engine to power the Contraption, 1 1/2 HP doesn't sound like it is, but I don't know the torque it makes... if it's making 1 1/2 HP at super-low RPM it ought to be OK.

Here's a two horse traction engine.

[youtube][/youtube]

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:06 am

Too much paint. I would wire-brush that off, and see about all-naturel, or black or black accents. Which would be the SP look?

Dusza Beben · Post by **Dusza Beben** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:51 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:Which would be the SP look?

Needs more brass.

DB

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:18 pm

This weekend was set aside for Contraption work since it was too damn hot to forge anyways. At least that what I told myself. So with a small window of opportunity, I wanted to roll the olâ€™ girl inside and see if I could get that engine mounted.

And of course I ran into a bit of an ob-stak-ul. That seems to be the theme of this year, the year of Sisyphus. But I must admit that Iâ€™ve never faced a problem such as the one I found needing solved.

When I untarped the vehicle to begin rolling it in the shop, I found a little surprise, foretold by a Finch taking flight. In the folded up bonnet was a perfect little nest in the perfect little spot.

A closer look revealed a most perplexing situationâ€¦

I learned, via the interweb, that the pink speckles on the eggs meant that they were fertile and could hatch. Dangâ€¦ now what to do? Some might say, â€œOmeletâ€

bigbluedoggy · Post by **bigbluedoggy** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:28 pm

Hey LCN! Kudos to you for your exceptionally kind and ethical treatment of what others might consider a major nuisance to be disposed of (and I don't mean your mother in law). It's just another measure of the high caliber of person behind the incredible Contraption. Nice to see that, even though it's taken a slight left turn, progress is once again moving forward! Gonna be great to see you two on the playa again in a month! GASP!!! Gotta hurry... see ya!!!!

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:54 pm

Yup one of them new fangled Hybrids

and it was produced with Dolphin , Green sea turtle, and finch safe practices

karine · Post by **karine** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:25 pm

No finch were actually harmed in the production of this contraption!

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:01 pm

Impressive in every regard!

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:05 am

Awesome. You are just awesome man.