Politics, Everyday, All day... morning, noon and night....

[stuart]

You know something Rian,

The ones that want the plonker are the ones that dont want to hear what you cowboy and definately I and others have to say.

baseless and indefensable premise

[cowboyangel]

And while I'm in the politics area, any opinions about the international court stating today that the wall Isreal is building is against international law?

This is about the only damn thing that will work at this stage IMO. Seperate the two factions with a clear cut divider for about 50-100 years, then start rebuilding and tear the wall down. Right now nothing will be accomplished as long as the cycle of terrorist/Isreal retaliation continues. The terrorists stand to lose when peace happens, so why ever stop? Isreal will not just stand there and take hits, so that starts the cycle anew.

A long cooling time of near complete seperation with clearly defined borders is required now. Peace and cooperation can come later.

why did the international court less it's american judge then declare the wall to be in violation of international law? Some accuse the Israeli's of using the wall as a pretext for grabbing Palestinian land....this appears to be happenening...even Israeli courts have challenged parts of the wall's routes because of hardship to Palestinians...the very wall you think may stop or curtail suicide bombers....might only spawn more.....

[DVD Burner]

hey DVD

nice revisionist history there

lets exaimine

Jewish? Israeli? Come join our Camp!

The purpose of the camp is to promote Jewish Awareness to the Burning Man community at large and to provide a place for Jews to gather.

now, lets follow badgers plan and sub a few words

Gay? Bi? Come join our Camp!

The purpose of the camp is to promote Homosexual Awareness to the Burning Man community at large and to provide a place for Gays to gather.

wow, so political! So terribly offensive!

Well I looked all over that thread for Badgers Gay thing and did'nt find it. a lot of other usual off the wall Badger stuff but not that. anyway, the topic was not about Gay stuff anyway.

now, I am not denying that bullshit comment about how there aint no palestinians but the record clearly shows that it was YOU GUYS who fired off the first salvo. YOU turned it into a political stage. As a matter of fact, you took away HER cultural stage and made it into YOUR political stage.

Stuart You seriously are really missing the point, th Isreali/Palistinian conflict is a sensitive thing. that should have been noted and thought about by Lizwiz before she decided to post what and the way she posted. if you dont understand that then so be it. it's niether here nor there now. weather I posted anything there or not someone would have blasted her out for what and the way she posted. like that or not that is the way the world is.

despite what you might think about the actions of the ruling class in Israel (keep in mind that it is an ethnic minority who run the country) you would seek to deny someone the right to peacably assemble around a cultural/religious bond. That makes you a fucking 1st amendmant denier. Shameful.

Exactly what the problem is. religion and politics. well there is a third also: Rasisim;

"The international high court decided clearly today that this racist wall is illegal to the root and Israel should stop building it and take down what has already been built of this wall. We welcome this decision,"

Most of the world feels the same. Now the thing that bothers me and should bother the jews is that what they are doing over in Isreal should be seriously rethunk. (rethank, rethinked.) as with what Bush has just done with America there will be a world that will hate Jews for all of time over something the Jews should have let go a long time ago.Either way it makes no difference to me, not my problem.

[Rian Jackson]

So the Paelstinians always owned Israel? Funny, I thought it changed hands between Jewish, Roman, Muslim, and Christians over the last 3,000 years. Matter of fact, I thought that the various Muslim empire (Caliphates, Ottoman, etc.) have been tossing out the years for quite a while. Or is it only the last 50 years that count?

Oh, yeah, and by the way, you might be really interested to know that I know Palestinian families with titles to land that go back to Ottoman times.

Doesn't solve that unsolvable quesiton about at what point we begin to count 'ownership' but it might make you think twice before ya post without knowing what you're on about.

Personally, i think i should get to decide Jerusalem's fate. After all, my heritage includes Christian, Hebrew, Arab, and Armenian - all four quarters of the old city. Let's hear it for the mutt pedigree!

Sharon hasn't yet agreed.

[Rob the Wop]

a one state solution, which most people have given up hope for, is the closest thing to justice we could have. one person, one vote, regardless of the demographics.

And this has worked successfully, right? No? So your alternative has never worked and I doubt will ever work. The wall will stop a majority of the violent issues NOW. It's drastic, sure. And what major roadwork/wall/park/etc. has ever been done without moving some existing structures? Did you think the peace fairy would come down from the heavens and solve a 150 year old war? I'd be interested in the 'scientific research' into the issue. Sounds like theory from a bunch of sociological researchers to me. Keyword 'theory'. Saying you have scientific proof that a large population can be influenced precisely one way or another sounds like guesswork to me.

However, in nearly every situation for which i have the particulars, attacks into Israel are made in direct relatiation for personal loss.

And the circle of violence is complete. Palestinian attacks are justified because 'he hit me first!'. The Isreali deaths, however, are inconsequential and should not be counted. Don't you fucking realize that the Isrealis are justifying their attacks by leveraging the suicude bombers? That this type of thinking is exactly what keeps it going?

As far as your 'terrorists have nothing to gain from peace' comment - well, that's basically ignorant bullshit. Because the vast majority of the people you would refer to as terrorists want only a few things - their land, their freedom, and their lives. If there is a JUST peace, then they will gladly lay down their weapons, open a shop, drive a taxi. I'm sure there are a handful that are so jaded and so destroyed by occupation that they might not agree, but i have complete confidence to tell you that you are wrong.

Hamas is utterly innocent. Jeez. I need some of what you're smoking. Here's a link for you. The Hamas is dedicated towards the liberation of the Palistinian state through Jihad, and the implementation of a Islamic governement. This state unfortunately includes Jewish Israel. As long as there are Jews in Israel, then Hamas cannot fulfill their charter. They keep trying to point out that the Ottoman empire was a nice peace-loving, religiously tolerant bunch of folks until the Europeans came along. Come back to Islamic rule. Hate to bust your ceramic pipe, but when you conquer lands- it's generally not nice. I will admit that the Ottoman Empire tended to be more tolerant than others (most specifically the Crusade driven Europeans).

Now, you can argue all you want that the above is a biased account and i will grant you that. But most of it is well supported fact. Sources are a mixture of well respected academic texts, first hand knowledge, and second hand accounts from those who have survived all of this.

The above is very biased. And any time someone says something is 'well supported fact' without cites, I say bullshit myself. Simply by implying that the Hamas actions are for peace, and that they only act in retaliation- makes me write you off as having anything useful to say. They both have been pointing to earlier actions every time something happens. In my personal opinion, both sides can't be trusted to keep from killing each other- which is why the wall is necessary. The younger generation needs to cool the fuck off, passions need to be lessened with time- each new slaughter fuels more hatred. If there was just a 20 year span of no murders- it would pave the way to better relations.

[DVD Burner]

The other problem Isreal will have is all those nukes that the world wants to monitor.

[DVD Burner]

Hate to say it Rob but your "theories" are about to be shot to hell.

The wall will sove nothing and has not since it's conception. It will only create more fury.

Actually I dont even want to get any more into this right now but I will say this....too bad people aren't smart enough to see when they are wrong. Shorone is wrong and all that follow hime is wrong and Shorone is a convicted criminal. that is a fact.

[Simply Joel]

The other problem Isreal will have is all those nukes that the world wants to monitor.

Anti-Semitism anyone? :roll:

[DVD Burner]

The other problem Isreal will have is all those nukes that the world wants to monitor.

Anti-Semitism anyone?

There's nothing Anti-Semitism about it. Isreal is sitting on the biggest arsenal of nukes on the planet. If anything it makes Isreal the biggest biggott.

[Rian Jackson]

Exactly what the problem is. religion and politics. well there is a third also: Rasisim;

I'd even put racism before religion. IMHO, religion has been far more a justification than a cause.

Most of the world feels the same. Now the thing that bothers me and should bother the jews is that what they are doing over in Isreal should be seriously rethunk. (rethank, rethinked.) as with what Bush has just done with America there will be a world that will hate Jews for all of time over something the Jews should have let go a long time ago.Either way it makes no difference to me, not my problem.

Well, personally i would hate to see this happen. Because there are:
1)Plenty of Israelis who are not Jewish
2)Plenty of Jews who do not support Zionism
3)Plenty of viewpoints (although most pretty rightist) in Israel

At the end of the day, just because the Zionists have chosen to draw all of Judaism into their bloody little game, the whole community shouldn't be hated for it. And maybe it will happen... who knows? It can be a fight not to fall into those ways of thinking.

Part of the problem is the supporters of Zionism in the US - especially Christian rightists, who believe, in the words of my great-aunt or something, that the Jews are the chosen people and that we are trying to drive them into the sea. Yeah, right. Now, that's been asked for and fueled by Zionists all over, but it isn't the 'Jews' who are doing it.

Actually, I wasn't surprised by LizWiz's response. Because that sort of naivete is somewhat common among American Jews, from what i know. Of course, there are MANY like Chomsky who know better. But LizWiz seems to be suffering from misinformation and, perhaps, the inability or lack of desire to look at it critically.

It's important to note that Israelis are constantly propagandized by their government and media. (as are americans....)

The voices that are the most important in the struggle for truth are those from the inside, like Chomsky. He gets called a self-hater for it, of course, but there are many like him.

~*~Rian

Come to me wherever you are
Whatever you have become
And return colour to my cheeks
And meaning to my being
Return and take me into your eyes
Take an olive branch
A toy
Take a stone from our house
So that our descendents
Will remember their way home

-Mahmoud Darwish, 'Lover from Palestine'

They shut me in a dark cell
My heart glowed with sunny torches.
They wrote my number on the walls,
The walls transformed to green pastures,
They drew the face of my executioner,
The face was soon dispersed
With luminous braids.
I carved your map with my teeth upon the walls
And wrote the song of fleeting night.
I hurled defeat to obscurity
And plunged my hands
Into rays of light.
They conquered nothing,
Nothing,
They only kindled earthquakes.

-unknown

[Rob the Wop]

So the Paelstinians always owned Israel? Funny, I thought it changed hands between Jewish, Roman, Muslim, and Christians over the last 3,000 years. Matter of fact, I thought that the various Muslim empire (Caliphates, Ottoman, etc.) have been tossing out the years for quite a while. Or is it only the last 50 years that count?

Oh, yeah, and by the way, you might be really interested to know that I know Palestinian families with titles to land that go back to Ottoman times.

Doesn't solve that unsolvable quesiton about at what point we begin to count 'ownership' but it might make you think twice before ya post without knowing what you're on about.

Personally, i think i should get to decide Jerusalem's fate. After all, my heritage includes Christian, Hebrew, Arab, and Armenian - all four quarters of the old city. Let's hear it for the mutt pedigree!

Sharon hasn't yet agreed.

The Ottoman Empire is as far back as your go? I could write out a piece of paper claiming spots in Iraq. Why not? We essentially just conquered it. The Ottoman Empire isn't that old y'know. Not compared to Byzantine or Roman Empires. I'll bet you could find some deeds from back then claiming spots owned by others. Apparently you know 'more better what you're on about' since you have Palestinian buddies. Guess I'll have to throw away those history books that date past the 1800's. Unless the latest conquerers make the rules. Oops. I guess that leaves it a Jewish state, doesn't it?

I don't have the answers, but the current setup hasn't/won't work. This is the same 'borders' issue with a new 20th century twist. Now it's just an escalation of violence. Once that is stopped for a number of years, then maybe something constructive can happen. Right now it's just bloodshed.

Oh and international law is fuck all. Thanks for asking. I'm sure suicide bombers and unprovoked Hamas leadership assasinations are fine by the Geneva Convention too. No? Israel's nukes puts things on a very different perspective when it comes to making a country do what the world wants it to.

[Rob the Wop]

Hate to say it Rob but your "theories" are about to be shot to hell.

The wall will sove nothing and has not since it's conception. It will only create more fury.

Actually I dont even want to get any more into this right now but I will say this....too bad people aren't smart enough to see when they are wrong. Shorone is wrong and all that follow hime is wrong and Shorone is a convicted criminal. that is a fact.

You never do want to 'get into it'. You are the master of screaming statements of hot air. Neither providing proof, nor any type of logical arguement. Shoot my arguements if you have any ammo. If the refutation is good enough, I may change my mind. I know I don't have the answers, I simply go with what sounds good.

Oh and you're wrong and those that follow you are wrong and that is fact. Unless that sounds stupid. OK, never mind. Didn't sound any more factual or logical when I said it either.

[Rian Jackson]

Rob -

i said 'justice' not peace. peace follows justice.

and i didn't say those things to legitimize violence against civilians - i myself and many many palestinians do not condone this.

btw, Israel sacked any hope for a one state solution. just as 'generous offer' they make is not anything of the sort.

as far as Hamas, i suspect that the longer Palestinians are strangled the more they will turn to religious extremism... that's how it goes. I don't like it either. You might be interested to know that Hamas is strongest in the Gaza strip, where they killed what, 9 yesterday? Routine day for the military. And that percentage-wise, Palestinians are largely faithful to Fatah, which is SECULAR. Besides, are you talking Hamas or the Qassam brigades? Distinctions. Specifics, Rob.

And then there's the bit that Palestinian resistance has historically taken the form of civil disobedience or of being samud - steadfast - and waiting. But, unfortunately, the economic, social, and military violence got to be too much. In reaction, come parts of the Palestinian public were 'militarized.' Read your history books.

You want my citations? Come over, and read the library. Although you might note i already suggested a book that is full of good studies and, yes, citations. (Rian smiles a sweet but deadly smile)


but you didn't want to read my posts that carefully, did you now? Try reading for actual content rather than what you want to believe that i am saying.

A-B-C-D...
that should get you started.

put your blind anger away long enough to listen. your sort of reaction is why these problems are never solved. i'm not likely to hurt you. really

[Rian Jackson]

The other problem Isreal will have is all those nukes that the world wants to monitor.

Anti-Semitism anyone?

Hi. Israel has nukes. They were outed by one of their own folks, who was then imprisioned.

And would it interest you to know that Arabs are also Semites?

OH MY GOD! THEY SAID THE WORD NUKES! I GUESS THEY ARE AGAINST EVERYONE OF MIDDLE EASTERN EXTRACTION!

Really. (Rian shakes her head)

is it too much to ask for a little intellectual rigor here?

[Rian Jackson]

The Ottoman Empire is as far back as your go? I could write out a piece of paper claiming spots in Iraq. Why not? We essentially just conquered it. The Ottoman Empire isn't that old y'know. Not compared to Byzantine or Roman Empires. I'll bet you could find some deeds from back then claiming spots owned by others. Apparently you know 'more better what you're on about' since you have Palestinian buddies. Guess I'll have to throw away those history books that date past the 1800's. Unless the latest conquerers make the rules. Oops. I guess that leaves it a Jewish state, doesn't it?

i'm sorry. my bad. i should have specified that they have been on the same parcel of land continuously until a few years ago, when they were kicked off to build a road to an illegal israeli settlement near bethlehem.

good enough for you?

like i said, we're not going to solve that problem.

but how's this:

Most of the original 12 tribes of Judah no longer live in Israel/Palestine. Many want nothing to do with Israel and will not return. Most current Israelis come from Europe (eastern and western) and Russia. Of course, to boost numbers and get cheap labour now that they can't use the Palestinians as well, they are importing folks from all over.

The people there now, by and large, have NO TIE to that land prior to this century.

the fact that i know palestinians gives me little credence. having actively sought out knowledge, including having lived it, might *begin* to. but the stories i tell are true stories of people's lives... which is what *history* is, right? now, you were talking about history books?

[DVD Burner]

You never do want to 'get into it'. You are the master of screaming statements of hot air. Neither providing proof, nor any type of logical arguement. Shoot my arguements if you have any ammo. If the refutation is good enough, I may change my mind. I know I don't have the answers, I simply go with what sounds good.

Oh and you're wrong and those that follow you are wrong and that is fact. Unless that sounds stupid. OK, never mind. Didn't sound any more factual or logical when I said it either.

Need I remind you of the 911 thread where your theories were seriously flawed. Also my hot air in that thread turned out to be correct also. next time I suggest you cite as you say my hot air statements.

[Simply Joel]

Really. (Rian shakes her head)

is it too much to ask for a little intellectual rigor here?

in a word, yes.

[DVD Burner]

Joel is really funny today.

[Rob the Wop]

The people there now, by and large, have NO TIE to that land prior to this century.

the fact that i know palestinians gives me little credence. having actively sought out knowledge, including having lived it, might *begin* to. but the stories i tell are true stories of people's lives... which is what *history* is, right? now, you were talking about history books?

Wow. Admonishes me to read his posts when he himself is blind. Who did your Ottoman ancestors get their land from?

The definition of history is simple. It's written by the victors. The Isrealis I work with have a different opinion of the Hamas. I guess there is more than one side to any story.

The link I posted was The Islamic Covenant translated. Famaliar? This applies to all of the Hamas, right? Try reading it. To paraphrase
"A-B-C-D"
Y'know, it sounds just as ingrating and insulting as when you said it. I love that you accused me of hatred right after insulting me. Wow, I guess I'm convinced. You are a rational, thinking being and a stunning intellectual. FYI, I don't hate anything- that's your projection onto who you think I am. I haven't said that the Hamas are solely to blame, I said they SHARE the blame.

[Rob the Wop]

You never do want to 'get into it'. You are the master of screaming statements of hot air. Neither providing proof, nor any type of logical arguement. Shoot my arguements if you have any ammo. If the refutation is good enough, I may change my mind. I know I don't have the answers, I simply go with what sounds good.

Oh and you're wrong and those that follow you are wrong and that is fact. Unless that sounds stupid. OK, never mind. Didn't sound any more factual or logical when I said it either.

Need I remind you of the 911 thread where your theories were seriously flawed. Also my hot air in that thread turned out to be correct also. next time I suggest you cite as you say my hot air statements.

Good God where is my plonk button?

Time to play psychiatrist for a bit. Just because you don't agree with something does not mean there is automatically mountains of research-driven evidence to explain your viewpoint.

What fucking theory? What statement that you have ever made has ever been factual (besides in your head)? You said my theories on the wall were incorrect without providing cites, yet ask me to provide cites that you are correct in saying my theory is wrong? You would make a great research assistant. Please return to babbling insanely, at least I could tune that out a bit.

[DVD Burner]

Here is a plonker for you Rob.

As far as me pointing out your flaw in 911, I will leave that to you. I refuse to embarrass you cause I think you're pretty neet.

[DVD Burner]

messed up that plonker. here is the plonker for you

[Rian Jackson]

Really. (Rian shakes her head)

is it too much to ask for a little intellectual rigor here?

in a word, yes.

Damn, i think you just made my crush list.
Oops, wrong thread!

[Rian Jackson]

Ah, well, i think that this discussion has degenerated past the point of continuing.

It's been good... or at least more interesting than work.

[Rob the Wop]

Ah, well, i think that this discussion has degenerated past the point of continuing.

It's been good... or at least more interesting than work.

Agreed. I don't like being insulting as a rule. Especially when there is some merit to an arguement. There are Palestinians here that I work with, and my girlfriend is Arab/Irish that spent quite a bit of time living with Palestinians. I'm not blind to the plight, I just don't think there's much choice in the way of diplomacy right now. Something ain't working, and it's high time something did. Maybe the wall is a bad idea, but nothing else has seemed to work.

[theCryptofishist]

Evacuate 1/4 of Germany and ship the isrealis there.

[cowboyangel]

wow...mention Israel or Palestine and watch the thread take off like an angry bull. I believe that all of us want to see peace in the region.....how to go about achieving this is the big question....I think the past 20 or so years have proved that violence only begets more violence....no matter who is doing the violence. Much can be done by the US to stop the violence but this takes the kind of courage our political leaders on all sides, lack. We as citizens can do things too....like joining Israeli or Palestinian peace efforts, or NGO's .
Marshall Rosenberg has a beautiful thing going with his Non-Violent Communication Seminars http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/

He's brought this work to Isrealis and Palestinians and has success stories to tell on his website. Conquering fear is key to this approach. In my travels around the globe, what impresses me the most I guess is how much alike we all are. Somehow, citizens have to take more responsibility in smaller circles to create an atmosphere for peace...our governments seem incapable of leading us there........

[DVD Burner]

And outta all the bickering done today no one has made mention of this. (which I think is more important.)

For anyone that does'nt belive how fucked up your government is and how fucked up Bush and the cronies are, read this. Fresh off the press today

Bush Military Service Files Were Destroyed -
Report
Fri Jul 9, 2004 04:11 AM ET


NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Pentagon says military records related to President Bush's service in the National Guard more than 30 years ago were inadvertently destroyed, The New York Times reported on Friday.
Payroll records of "numerous service members," including Bush, were ruined in 1996 and 1997 during a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service, the newspaper said, citing the Pentagon.

Bush's whereabouts during his service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War have become an election-year issue, with some Democrats accusing him of shirking his duty.

The destroyed files cover three months of a period in 1972 and 1973 when Bush's claims of service in Alabama are in question, the newspaper said. No back-up paper copies of the records could be found, the Pentagon said in notices dated June 25, according to the Times.

The loss of the records was announced by the Defense Department's Office of Freedom of Information and Security Review in letters to the Times and other news organizations that for nearly half a year have sought Bush's complete service file, the newspaper reported.

In February, the White House released hundreds of pages of Bush's military records. Those records did not provide new evidence to place Bush in Alabama during the latter part of 1972, when some Democrats say he was basically absent without leave.

Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director who has said the released records confirmed the president's fulfillment of his National Guard commitment, did not return two calls for a response, the Times said.

© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.

[stuart]

Well I looked all over that thread for Badgers Gay thing and did'nt find it. a lot of other usual off the wall Badger stuff but not that. anyway, the topic was not about Gay stuff anyway.

it's in the case studies thread.

YOU are missing the point. Go back and read my post. The idea is to look at her OP with those substitutions. When you do so and look at your response the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you are an ideological bigot who would deny someone their right to peacably assemble. You got out your axe and started griding.


And as far as Israel having the largest nuke arsenal, get off the crack pipe son, there are at least two other nations in line on that front. Just go ahead and try citing that one.

The irony that you are missing is that in a general sense you are exhibiting the same behavior on an individual level that you are condemning on an international level.

[stuart]

Most of the world feels the same.

I doubt most of the world feels you ought to take to task some poor kid from Texas because she wants to make a theme camp based around her heritage.