Center Camp/coffee debate

III · Post by **III** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:35 pm

>I believe all rules should just be guidelines anyway.

huh? that sounds an awful lot like "rules are good for other people to follow, but i don't have to."

i'm getting where you're coming from, re the good outweighing the bad. i realize that there are a lot of people who appreciate what the cafe has to offer. it just strikes me as odd that the only group whodoesn't have to follow the guidelines (and are they really just guidelines if they are physically enforced everywhere else?) are the people making them.

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:35 pm

III wrote:>I believe all rules should just be guidelines anyway.

huh? that sounds an awful lot like "rules are good for other people to follow, but i don't have to."

Certainly not. I would never, say, throw trash in a porta-potty regardless of how convenient it was to me. Anyway, discussing the nature of rules, anarchy, and their relation to Burning Man sounds like a topic for a new thread.

That being said, I do understand your feeling vis-a-vis the llc saying no one else is allowed to vend, but they can. I'm willing to accept the contradiction, however, because I see the cafe as a positive thing, i.e. real-world benefits winning out over idealogical purity. Also, I'm more okay with the org doing the vending than anyone else, because any profit goes back into the event (no, I do not think it goes to Larry Harvey's Riviera mansion), and the org is usually balancing precariously between the red and the black anyway; if another group was vending, it would be profit for profit's sake. If the org was to branch out for some reason, selling beer or t-shirts or whatever on the playa, I would have a problem with that- it would be going too far for my tastes.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:03 pm

> real-world benefits winning out over idealogical purity.

Oy. If that's the argument, I'd much rather they sold beer. I'd say that
you and I are solidly on opposite sides of that argument, if only because
I believe that the ideology of no vending is fundamental to the event,
and breaking it seems to me to be excruciatingly hypocritical for fairly
little benefit.

> If the org was to branch out for some reason, selling beer or t-shirts or
> whatever on the playa, I would have a problem with that- it would be
> going too far for my tastes.

What's the fundamental (ideological) difference between
coffee/tea/lemonade and beer and t-shirts? None of them is necessary
to the Burning Man experience. All of them enhance it for some portion
of the population, especially if shared with others. All of them can be,
and are, provided, as gifts, by people on the playa, or by you yourself
because you're self-reliant, right? I don't get it. Where does one draw
the (ideological) line?

We're never going to agree on this issue, which is fine. The "because I
like it" argument is never going to hold water for me as a reason for the
LLC to fund something, but it's pretty much the only one I've heard here
or elsewhere. Because you like it is a great reason for you to do
something. It's not a great reason to expect someone else to do it for
you.

rogue agent · Post by **rogue agent** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:28 pm

BlueBirdPoof wrote:On the Tuesday after the burn, as we were leaving the Playa we saw an armored truck coming out to the Playa. I don't know what it costs to have an armored truck come out from Reno, but that's a five/six hour round trip. The salary for two armed guards. I'm sure that those suckers have pretty low milage. And they draw attention to the fact that "Here's Money!" So, I'd guess you don't even bother with hiring one until the high 4, low 5 figures.

There was an armored car parked all week at a camp at around 4:30 & whatever the B street was. It was an older model, maybe 60's era. That might be what you saw.

I've already wondered about what the take from coffee sales is. Costs are listed at just over $100K for 2002, for both coffee & ice.

RA

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:59 pm

[quote="precipitate
>What's the fundamental (ideological) difference between
coffee/tea/lemonade and beer and t-shirts? None of them is necessary
to the Burning Man experience. All of them enhance it for some portion
of the population, especially if shared with others. All of them can be,
and are, provided, as gifts, by people on the playa, or by you yourself
because you're self-reliant, right? I don't get it. Where does one draw
the (ideological) line?

Actually, it's more of a practical line than idealogical, I'm betting. Meditate on the difference between large crowds of people drinking coffee and tea and large crowds of people drinking alchohol, and I think you'll see what I mean. Also, Burningman largely grew out of the coffehouse bohemian culture of San Francisco that gave birth to the Cacophony society, as Bob Stahl has said before. (On the other hand, I rememmber when the Cacophony society met in the upstairs of the Edinburgh Castle, a Scottish pub, so what the hell do I know?)

>We're never going to agree on this issue, which is fine. The "because I
like it" argument is never going to hold water for me as a reason for the
LLC to fund something, but it's pretty much the only one I've heard here
or elsewhere. Because you like it is a great reason for you to do
something. It's not a great reason to expect someone else to do it for
you.[/quote]

Again, I do understand your point. I can't help adding that my anarchistic instincts think that "because I don't like it" is not necessarily a good reason to ban something. Of course, that leads back to why money transactions are not allowed in the first place. Oy. Good night, John Boy.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:14 pm

I think the LLC with input from other memebers of the BM project will be making clarifications in the future about the role of monies raised at Center Camp. Honestly, I really don't have a problem with the commerce that goes on because I understand that the funds are in fact given to the local scholl district and the old folks home - if I'm not mistaken. The money raised is substantial enough that the school finally got internet access for the classrooms which I believe is a good thing.

My only sore spot with Center Camp is the fact that there is or seems to be a concerted effort to collect tips from participants to be divied up among those folks who 'volunteer' there. As I mentined earlier, i was pretty floored when the coffee bar opened in the early hours of Monday morning and the first person I met serving said to me "Whata ya got for me." It was a pretty scalding experience from a personal point of view. Not wanting to toot my horn but I've volunteered for the past six years and the idea of accepting money for my labors is just so....counterintuitive to the idea of what volunteering is all about.

Off my soap box now.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:50 pm

Disgusting tip jars? You should see the local mohel's.

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:59 pm

Anyone actively bugging people for tips like that should, in fact, be called on it and publicly humiliated in the most devasting way possible. All the cafe shift managers I've talked to say they wouldn't aloow it if they caught it -but they can't be everywhere at once.

There are asshole cafe workers, just as there are gift-greedy-greeters, power-tripping rangers, and arrogant attitude-flashing DPWers. Not to mention obnoxious participant yahoos...

Angry Butterfly · Post by **Angry Butterfly** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:34 pm

KellY wrote:
Actually, it's more of a practical line than idealogical, I'm betting. Meditate on the difference between large crowds of people drinking coffee and tea and large crowds of people drinking alchohol, and I think you'll see what I mean. Also, Burningman largely grew out of the coffehouse bohemian culture of San Francisco that gave birth to the Cacophony society, as Bob Stahl has said before. (On the other hand, I rememmber when the Cacophony society met in the upstairs of the Edinburgh Castle, a Scottish pub, so what the hell do I know?)
.

I am so Hijacking this thread to say that this interests me because RISD decided to shut down the tap room the year I attended and the quality of campus interaction and Ideas and quality of the whole school went to hell. A little "social Lubricant" is a good thing.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:24 pm

Badger wrote:As I mentined earlier, i was pretty floored when the coffee bar opened in the early hours of Monday morning and the first person I met serving said to me "Whata ya got for me." It was a pretty scalding experience from a personal point of view.

OOF! To use offical terminology, that sucks big ole donkey dick. I started volunteering with the cafe 2 yrs ago, and I know for a fact that if the cafe managers heard anyone act like that, they'd get the proverbial and appropriate bitch-slapping and be sent packing. I've seen it happen.

A more frequent occurence is that some young hottie will spontaneously jump on the counter and strip to entertain the crowd.

I'm so sorry that was your defining experience in the cafe. It reminds me of the one I had with the Post office - in 98, my first year, I heard that I could send a postcard to another camp. I went , waited in line, and got up there to met by a slob in a baseball camp that said the exact same thing "whaddaya got for me?" I didn't understand, asked him what he meant, and he just sat there looking me up and down and making me feel like I was supposed to suck his dick for the privilege of talking to him. He was really hostile and I got super-flustered, running away so embarassed that it just brought all my newbie anxiety to a head and I cried myself all the way back to my camp.

Now, I was still in my twenties then, and I sure as heck don't fluster easily now, and I have been assured that the Post Office is no longer populated with such rank assholes, but I still find myself avoiding it on the playa.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:41 pm

Badger wrote: My only sore spot with Center Camp is the fact that there is or seems to be a concerted effort to collect tips from participants to be divied up among those folks who 'volunteer' there.

I'd like to offer up a practical explanation for this:

You just can't have people handling money without letting them have some of it or they'll steal.

I see the shitstorm coming, but hear me out.

Now, I feel that burners comprise some of the most honorable people around. But the realities of dealing with money is that most people simply can't deal with having it in their hands, being reminded of what it represents, feeling it, smelling it, without wanting it.

When I first had this idea proposed to me, I was like "no way, that's total bullshit". But then I worked a shift at CampArtica because they were short of folks, and I hated it. The people were are cool, but I hated touching the money. It got me to thinking about money, my general need for and want of it in "real" life, and I couldn't wait for my shift to end.

It interesting that while people spend millions of dollars talking about their deepest darkest issue with sex, and romance and body image and family, they don't talk about money in the same way, when our personal relationships with money are SO loaded.

This might sound like an argument against any vending, but I'm with Kelly and Badger on the idea that the charitable benefits of having the controlled vending that we do are worth it. Further to that, the tipping doesn't bother me.

Angry Butterfly · Post by **Angry Butterfly** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:50 pm

woah, Tecnopatra, i just have to say how right on that is, partiularly being broke. I have a fucked up relationship with money myself. I think we all do.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:08 pm

Angry Butterfly wrote:woah, Tecnopatra, i just have to say how right on that is, partiularly being broke. I have a fucked up relationship with money myself. I think we all do.

Yeah, I don't know about you, but no one in my family ever really discusses money outside of divvying up a dinner check. t least with sex you could pick up some basic (if sometimes dubious) knowledge from your friend's older sister. Wish there had been some kind of financial equivalent.

III · Post by **III** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:15 pm

excerpt from a post i sent to a mailing list today. dunno if it's apropos, or just egotistical interjection.:

i see money as a social lubricant that reduces the need for personal interaction. it's great for going to the store, for getting your car fixed, and for being reimbursed for the effort you provide at your job. it'd certainly be a pain in the ass to have your boss pay you in milk and eggs.

however, that reduction in personal interaction becomes an anathema when introduced into a community that is *built* on personal relationships. at best it's a monkey wrench that upsets the balance of those relationships, at worst it serves to separate and insulate people from one another. as was mentioned by someone else, charging money allows someone to expect you to provide a service for them - it stops being a relationship of trust and gifts, and becomes dominated by the aspects of quid pro quo and return on investment.

that's my take on it, based in part on gut instinct, part on experience, and part on observation. i won't claim that disagreeing with it implies a lack of intellectual rigor - i certainly haven't put a lot of it in, myself. but i've gotten okay at recognizing kernels of truth in my life (what patterns people a la alexander call the smell test) and this seems to fit in there, to me.

Angry Butterfly · Post by **Angry Butterfly** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:16 pm

Ok, the problem in my family is that my parents spoke ( meaning yelled) of little else and squandered a fortune on bad real estate deals and FUCKING AMWAY. Now I am so screwed up about it I won't use a checking account or even own a credit card, I am terrified to talk to my husband about money, and for years wouldn't get a joint account, and I am now thinking of starting a secret account to hide money. I have an honest to god panic attack every time we pay rent or a bill. Yeah, it's pretty fucked up. I dont know about the older sister thing, I didnt have one, and actualy was a virgin till i was 20.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:23 pm

III wrote:excerpt from a post i sent to a mailing list today. dunno if it's apropos, or just egotistical interjection.:

I think that was totally on topic. In my dream world, we would flip this issue on it's ear - off-playa, we would be able to interact with money and each other in a way that wouldn't be an anathema to positive social interaction.

Of course, I have no freakin' clue how that could be accomplished.

On the surface it could just be good manners - being nice to folks with whom you have money dealings. But in reality, you often transact with people that you have no interest in bonding with socially at all.

My god, did I just say that capitalism is, by having a definitive nature in commerce, a big ole vibe killer? Damn my hippie parents.

Angry Butterfly · Post by **Angry Butterfly** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:34 pm

this is why I suck at the business end of my work. I really only like to work with people I dig. Fortunately I'm a pretty easy going person.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 6:35 am

Arrr... Chroist Oilmightyyy...

A number of constant themes are revealed in this thread, aside from the cafe being an endless source of amusement amongst them that flocketh. Exchange of goods and services for consideration has been mortally troublesome from the Antediluvian period to Buy Nothing Day.

Shame, shame, shame on us all, that Cain slew Abel, and that their lord -- let's call him Larry -- should require a gift in the first place.

All three, eternally shameful, and eternally shameless. God made the earth and all the creepy things upon it. Abel was a lover of sheep. Cain was the builder of cities, but ended up as a vagabond marked with a life-like sentence, right on his forehead.

And Larry hath the balls to say, "If thou didst offer well but divide badly, hast thou not committed sin?" What??? He wants the tip jar, too?

Give Cain a break -- poor guy had technical difficulties during his Burn. Larry looked down, saw a scarecrow and a bunch of sputtering vegetables on a pile of wet hay bales, shook his head, and emitted a Lurch-like grumble.

Verily, and this was centuries prior to carpenters using neon to start fires.

<blockquote>God's Song (That's Why I Love Mankind)

Cain slew Abel, Seth knew not why
For if the children of Israel were to multiply
Why must any of the children die?
So he asked the Lord
And the Lord said:

Man means nothing, he means less to me
Than the lowliest cactus flower
Or the humblest Yucca tree
He chases round this desert
'Cause he thinks that's where I'll be
That's why I love mankind

I recoil in horror from the foulness of thee
From the squalor and the filth and the misery
How we laugh up here in heaven at the prayers you offer me
That's why I love mankind

The Christians and the Jews were having a jamboree
The Buddhists and the Hindus joined on satellite TV
They picked their four greatest priests
And they began to speak
They said, "Lord, a plague is on the world
Lord, no man is free
The temples that we built to you
Have tumbled into the sea
Lord, if you won't take care of us
Won't you please, please let us be?"
And the Lord said
And the Lord said

I burn down your cities-how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we
You all must be crazy to put your faith in me
That's why I love mankind
You really need me
That's why I love mankind

Randy Newman, 1972
</blockquote>

III · Post by **III** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:41 am

>we would be able to interact with money and each other in a way that wouldn't be an anathema to positive social interaction

there's that story about a scoprion getting a ride across the river from a frog: "it's in my nature".

the whole point of money in the first place, why it exists, its purpose for being, is to reduce social interaction. as the world became industrialized and labor divided, as people specialized and relied on more and more people to provide those things that weren't their specialty, the need arose for a standardized means to exchange value, rathe rthan just kind of keeping tack on a mutual feel good basis. enter money.

and that, to my understanding, is why burning man was made a no-commerce zone. and that's also why some of us find it frustrating that the centerpiece of the whole city violates this. it makes me me wonder whether the people throwing this just use the word "community" as a sales buzzword, without actually understanding what it is they're selling.

earlier you also said:

> But the realities of dealing with money is that most people simply can't deal with having it in their hands, being reminded of what it represents, feeling it, smelling it, without wanting it.

and

>This might sound like an argument against any vending

i think it *does* sound like an argument against vending, and i'm not quite sure i got the "but" part. could you please elaborate?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:44 am

T-shirt booths were banned by those with the power to do so because they didn't want to see T-shirt booths. How this esthetic choice became cloaked in the appearance of ideology is obscure.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:56 am

Bob hits one of the underlying issues spot-on. We don't know why coffee is sold. That lack of understanding causes us to theorize endlessly about the why.

I have a theory, but i recognize that it's based partly on my own experiences, so i think posting it would not contribute to understanding.

What would contribute to understanding is if the org/llc gave us a reason, much like the eplaya admins gave us reasons for revamping the eplaya.

Sure people will probably find reasons to poke holes in the explanation or point out contradictions, but at least then we would have a common framework from which to start an educated discussion.

So what say you Larry, et al, can you give us a reason or reasons to consider?

Angry Butterfly · Post by **Angry Butterfly** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:53 am

III wrote:
there's that story about a scoprion getting a ride across the river from a frog: "it's in my nature".

I hate that story, I had this melodramatic high school boyfriend who was all about that and told me that story as an excuse for his being a jerk. So I cheated on him. A LOT.

It was in MY nature.
And Billy's
And Geoff's
And Eric's
And Joel's....

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:51 pm

....We don't know why coffee is sold....

Originally, AFAIK, because Ms P talked with Larry prior to the 1996 event about doing a cafe in Center Camp that year; and the smell of the coffee, and the excellence of establishing a cafe in the tradition of the city whence Burning Man sprung, was apparently stronger than any taboo against charging inveterate coffee junkies a fair amount for their fix.

IMO it went to hell when they first started serving chai. Aside from chai being a vile broth of incompatible cooking materials, the person who brought the chai set up a booth overtopped with a commercial logo advertising his chai business.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:45 am

precipitate wrote: Oy. If that's the argument, I'd much rather they sold beer.

Can I hear an amen, brothers and sisters?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:00 am

Aside from chai being a vile broth of incompatible cooking materials,

Fucking heretic.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 8:36 am

Aside from chai being a vile broth of incompatible cooking materials,
Fucking heretic.

The truth hurts.

But I suppose one could apply similar criticisms to various coffee preparations polluted with dairy products which originated among those swarthy Mediterranean types.

Angry Butterfly · Post by **Angry Butterfly** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:47 am

I used to think Chai was pretty nasty until I was really cold in the Cafe One night and shared a Chai with a new friend who had a coupon for a free one. I must say it was much yummier and not as gross as i thought, but It could have had a lot to do with the person I was with. But the same could be said for giving head.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:58 am

Being the morning shift leader for CampArctica I absolutely detest the tip thing... that being said I just want ya all to know that nearly all of my crew ALWAYS leave their tips to go back into the Gerlach & Empire community.... (they make me sooooo proud!!)

and.. WE NEVER ask anyone to tip... matter of fact I am usually surprised how many people actually willingly leave their money (and other gifts) in the tip cups... there have been times where we haven't set the tip cups out and people will ask us where they are or even throw their money on the counter if the tips cups aren't there...

IF I had my way we wouldn't accept tips at all, but its true that Gerlach & Empire benefit greatly from the generosity of the BRC denizens... On our way home to see the people from Gerlach and Empire with their handmade signs thanking us gives me great joy in knowing in a small way I have done something to be proud of....

I'm sorry that some of you had a bad experience slinging ice.... if ya ever want to try it again come see me on my shift 9 to noon..... we have a fun time..... and can always use the help....

as for the NEED for ICE, who said we could do with out... unless ya have some sort of refridgeration... then ya REALLY need it.... can ya imagine THAT smell eminating from your Ice (without) chest.... unless ya plan to have warm drinks and spoiled foods all week.. not to mention the REAL need for it in Medical, it becomes a Health issue.... and we are required to provide ice.....

as for the coffee thing, if everyone just stopped buying it... then they wouldn't have a reason to make it available....(hmmm! or would they?) other than giving people a very cool place to gather and talk over a cup of fluid of some sort or another... Ahhhh well.. the debate rages on as it does every year.... guess we can't please everyone no matter how hard we might want to.....

Bare

Badger wrote:I think the LLC with input from other memebers of the BM project will be making clarifications in the future about the role of monies raised at Center Camp. Honestly, I really don't have a problem with the commerce that goes on because I understand that the funds are in fact given to the local scholl district and the old folks home - if I'm not mistaken. The money raised is substantial enough that the school finally got internet access for the classrooms which I believe is a good thing.

My only sore spot with Center Camp is the fact that there is or seems to be a concerted effort to collect tips from participants to be divied up among those folks who 'volunteer' there.
Off my soap box now.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:14 pm

> We don't know why coffee is sold. That lack of understanding causes us
> to theorize endlessly about the why.

Really? I haven't heard many theories as to why. I've heard a lot of
justifications as to why it should continue or stop, based on its
sociocultural merits (i.e., "because I like it"). I'm not sure whether it
matters why it started, and I'm quite sure it doesn't matter what we
"decide" here. Larry's gonna do what Larry's gonna do.

> as for the NEED for ICE, who said we could do with out..

The royal we could do without. Probably wouldn't choose to, but could.
Who said you needed cold beer or fresh food? Ice is a luxury. But one
with a lot of uses, and it's not something I've heard anyone say shouldn't
be sold. I've said it needn't be sold, but that's not the same thing.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:35 pm

precipitate wrote:
abeerinthemorning wrote:> We don't know why coffee is sold. That lack of understanding causes us
> to theorize endlessly about the why..
Really? I haven't heard many theories as to why. I've heard a lot of
justifications as to why it should continue or stop, based on its
sociocultural merits (i.e., "because I like it"). I'm not sure whether it
matters why it started, and I'm quite sure it doesn't matter what we
"decide" here. Larry's gonna do what Larry's gonna do.

I see what your saying. I was trying to address the issue of whether or not the sale of coffee represented an outrageous violation of the fundamental principles of the event, and was (perhaps naively) wondering if Larry would fill us in on his thinking.

In my opinion, I think it's a justifiable exception to the rule.

Center Camp/coffee debate

Burning, Man -- Its/It's Ideology, Stupid!

Why is coffee sold at Center Camp?

OT

Tips and the need for ice