Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

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Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by bdevoid » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:42 am


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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:46 am

Isn’t everyone sick of these stupid racial equality at Burning Man stories? Talk about manufacturing an issue that doesn’t exist.
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by some seeing eye » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:36 am

Personally, I don't think ePlaya is the place for a debate between Bernie DeVoid, who sounds like a made up identity and has never posted here before, and Favianna Rodgriquez.

Burning Man is a do-ocracy.

ePlaya is not an argue-ocracy.

People who are interested in the thesis of Rodgriquez can read posts on journal.burningman.org, then reach out personally to the team working on it and volunteer.

Do-ocracy: personally, I want more artists and fewer DJ's at the event, so I'm bringing virgin friends IRL who are artists and not DJs to the event. I've brought 6 so far.
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Sham » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:21 am

I find the discussion of attempting to increase the number of any particular group a bit bizarre. Burning Man does not survey who it sells tickets to, nor does it partition out batches of tickets for any group based on ethnicity. ANYONE who wants to buy a ticket, can buy a ticket. It's what radical inclusion is all about.

The event is considered (at least by me) a counter-culture arts festival that takes place in one of the harshest environments possible. It does not attract the same crowd that goes to quilting conventions or even the Comic Con crowd. However, any of these folks are certainly welcome if they choose. 8)

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Skuzzy61 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:14 am

To the OP: Radical Inclusion does include race, moron. This is reaching a new low by trying to create an issue that does not exist.

You want to go to Burning Man? BUY A TICKET! Just try to get turned down. I dare ya.
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by goodleaf » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:43 pm

I’m a POC and have been surprised by how little burners want to talk about racial dynamics in comparison to other topics of conversation.

In talking to other POC folks this year at the burn, it sounded like others had this experience too. Talking about social change, capitalism, environmental causes etc including hot button issues all generally seem to be common topics of conversation at the burn.

But when it comes to race, people on playa tend to get uncomfortable, defensive, they tend to clam up or they tend to attack someone for bringing it up in the first place.

Side note: I’m also struck by how a lot of the rhetoric about burgins and acculturation starts to sound like the rhetoric of anti immigration folks (protect our culture! Protect it from the invaders! Etc). The only way a group of people evolves with good ideas is to welcome new people and listen to them - at least that’s my view.

My first year, just going to the desert seemed radical - I was at least four degrees away from knowing anyone who had been to BM (and I thought everyone found BM this way - then I met a ton of burgins who were part of camps and I realized most people come because they know someone else who attends).

This year, my second, seeking out other POCs helped me understand that I’m not alone in feeling this way. And being able to talk honestly about racial dynamics with the folks that were willing to engage felt pretty transgressive both for the playa and for the default world.

Still thinking about how I want to convert the above thoughts into action for next year.

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Ratty » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:56 pm

Nope, not everyone came to their first burn with friends. My first 7 burns were solo. The last 3 are a small camp we formed after years of on playa friendship. If you're looking to change the event with your actions, invite friends and family to join you. Educate them on the principals. Form a camp, (or not). Give a show. Speak your mind. Most of all have fun and be an asset to the burner community. Make sure everyone either volunteers for a department or provides a service to your neighborhood on playa. Lead by example.
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by goodleaf » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:41 pm

Oh I’m sorry, let me clarify - I didn’t mean to say everyone or even most people camp with their friends their first year.

What I meant to say - most of the people I met who were attending for the first time said they either knew someone personally who had attended, either that year or a previous year or knew of someone in their circles who had attended. Many of them decided to camp solo but they knew someone.

I commented on that because it was very different from my experience of not knowing anyone or even of anyone that had been.

Agree on your point re leading by example. I hope the folks that have or observe knee jerk responses to race stuff do the same.

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Ratty » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:12 pm

Story
Fly Ranch and the Burning Man Project, with the support and vision of Yodassa Williams and her advisory committee, are excited to be hosting our first writing expedition for women of color and non-binary persons of color this October 3 - 6, 2019 at Fly Ranch.
People of color often do not have access to either writing spaces or outdoor spaces. When Fly Ranch invited queer black writer, Yodassa Williams, to their property in Spring 2018, she shared a vision for the space to be an incubator for writers of color seeking liberation, solitude, and inspiration, knowing such a space was necessary. Writers Emerging was crafted for, and is honored to exclusively serve women of color and non-binary writers of color with this event. To learn more about the inception and passion that birthed this project, read the blog post (https://journal.burningman.org/2019/05/ ... n-stories/).

The Writers Emerging expedition takes place at Fly Ranch, a 3,800 acre property just north of the Burning Man event site. Fly Ranch is located on Northern Paiute land 12 miles north of Gerlach, Nevada. The property is home to dozens of hot and cold springs, three geysers, acres of wetlands, dozens of animal species, and more than 100 identified types of plants. Fly Ranch is becoming an incubator site for innovation and creativity.

Please help us create a magical life changing experience in the desert!

Special events of this nature can be costly, but we are asking the community for contributions which will go towards scholarships, transportation, food, teaching fees and other event related expenses.

Supporting a historic event building empowerment of women of color is a worthy investment. We are grateful to those who are able to give at any level and we encourage everyone to spread the word as we hope to receive enough support to plan a repeat of this expedition.
Yodassa Williams • September 13, 2019
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by lucky420 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:46 am

goodleaf wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:41 pm
Oh I’m sorry, let me clarify - I didn’t mean to say everyone or even most people camp with their friends their first year.

What I meant to say - most of the people I met who were attending for the first time said they either knew someone personally who had attended, either that year or a previous year or knew of someone in their circles who had attended. Many of them decided to camp solo but they knew someone.

I commented on that because it was very different from my experience of not knowing anyone or even of anyone that had been.

Agree on your point re leading by example. I hope the folks that have or observe knee jerk responses to race stuff do the same.
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by lucky420 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:48 am

ePlaya is not an argue-ocracy.

:lol: I beg to differ. :coffee:
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by lucky420 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:49 am

Hahahahaha look at all the whitedudes saying it’s not a problem
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by unjonharley » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:11 am

This thread, is picking a scab where there is no sore .. In the last few years, of helping to fix broken bikes.. I have met people from all countries and walks of life.. I have often punned " that people with dark skin are smarter then those with pink skin.. Look at the fools running around in the most extreme conditions .. "
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:42 am

Good catch Ratty, a pleasant surprise happens.
lucky420 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:48 am
ePlaya is not an argue-ocracy.
As for Lucky, them's fighting words, but IDC2 :D
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by lucky420 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:58 am

some seeing eye wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:42 am
Good catch Ratty, a pleasant surprise happens.
lucky420 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:48 am
ePlaya is not an argue-ocracy.
As for Lucky, them's fighting words, but IDC2 :D
Hahahahaha. I do appreciate you sse
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:23 pm

lucky420 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:58 am
Hahahahaha. I do appreciate you sse
And I love the Reno burners! Reno burners carry a lot of the burning man corporation load, or as we say in capitalism theory speak, externalities.
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Ano » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

goodleaf wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:43 pm

But when it comes to race, people on playa tend to get uncomfortable, defensive, they tend to clam up or they tend to attack someone for bringing it up in the first place.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding

I wish I had a large bell I could ring right now, like a clock tower bell. Sing it from the top of a mountain, even.

I love Burning Man, I really do, but being a POC at Burning Man can be a little bit unique... and some folks really dislike me bringing that up. I've been attacked by campmates and folks I respect out there for introducing the notion that there are problematic aspects of the racial experience out there. I find it very interesting that the Borg department I am a part of had a three-page spread about gender justice in our handbook years before any notion of racial justice was ever introduced. This year, 2019, was the first year I heard anything about racial justice in our yearly re-orientation. And this was a department that did a full-on top-down restructuring of how we address each other in respect of gender justice, in 2013.

Folks seemingly get ridiculously upset when I bring any of this up. I've had to endure open racism within my department and out on the playa, because any challenge to said racism tends to lead to people telling me to lighten up, get over it, its not a big deal. And, I guess in the grand scheme of things, maybe it isn't? But it sucks to hear someone remind me that I'm brown with absolutely no prompting on my part, and it sucks to see the people around me neglect to realize it's a shitty situation and to tell me to get over it. Switch the shitty racist comment for a shitty sexist comment, and suddenly people are up in arms. Make it an ageist comment, and people are ready to defend. Bring up the fact that a racist comment made you uncomfortable... lighten up!

Just my two cents over nine years of Burning Man, it's gotten significantly better, but it's still not really in a great place.

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by lucky420 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:47 pm

Ano wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm
goodleaf wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:43 pm

But when it comes to race, people on playa tend to get uncomfortable, defensive, they tend to clam up or they tend to attack someone for bringing it up in the first place.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding

I wish I had a large bell I could ring right now, like a clock tower bell. Sing it from the top of a mountain, even.

I love Burning Man, I really do, but being a POC at Burning Man can be a little bit unique... and some folks really dislike me bringing that up. I've been attacked by campmates and folks I respect out there for introducing the notion that there are problematic aspects of the racial experience out there. I find it very interesting that the Borg department I am a part of had a three-page spread about gender justice in our handbook years before any notion of racial justice was ever introduced. This year, 2019, was the first year I heard anything about racial justice in our yearly re-orientation. And this was a department that did a full-on top-down restructuring of how we address each other in respect of gender justice, in 2013.

Folks seemingly get ridiculously upset when I bring any of this up. I've had to endure open racism within my department and out on the playa, because any challenge to said racism tends to lead to people telling me to lighten up, get over it, its not a big deal. Apnd, I guess in the grand scheme of things, maybe it isn't? But it sucks to hear someone remind me that I'm brown with absolutely no prompting on my part, and it sucks to see the people around me neglect to realize it's a shitty situation and to tell me to get over it. Switch the shitty racist comment for a shitty sexist comment, and suddenly people are up in arms. Make it an ageist comment, and people are ready to defend. Bring up the fact that a racist comment made you uncomfortable... lighten up!

Just my two cents over nine years of Burning Man, it's gotten significantly better, but it's still not really in a great place.
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I think some people think if it’s not a problem for them then there’s not a problem...that’s not how it works people
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Canoe » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:18 pm

unjonharley wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:11 am
... I have often punned " that people with dark skin are smarter then those with pink skin.. Look at the fools running around in the most extreme conditions .. "
Mad dogs and Englishmen.

There's also the need to be in a demographic where you can afford the time off of work and all of the various costs.
So if you're part of a demographic where unemployment is higher, under-employment is higher, wages are less, more likely to have family members who have less and need help, more likely to be living paycheck to paycheck, high health costs mean higher rates of lower health due to the former economic factors, etc., then on top of it all you've got to be stupid enough to spend your money and time-off out baking in the sun on the playa...
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Ratty » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:58 am

Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by goodleaf » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:19 pm

Thanks for sharing that article, Ratty - I'm so glad to see other folks who share my feelings. A couple of quotes from the article:

"Admittedly, I was nervous. I only knew 2 people of color who had been and they were hard to find."

"I started the Black Burner Project to create an informative space that would inspire and encourage other people of color with curiosities to explore the unfamiliar. There just isn’t enough representation in the dust and although we are out there, I truly feel more of us should be witness to the magic and encounter this transformation experience."

I agree with a lot of what's said in the article in terms of increasing participation and representation. I'm excited that people of color are spearheading projects and I want to figure out what my project is going to be on this front.

I also hope that there are some white people who attend Burning Man who'd spearhead similar projects to increase representation or actively help with Black Burner Project or others in the works - I assume there are white folks who want more representation out there.

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:01 am

Canoe wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:18 pm

There's also the need to be in a demographic where you can afford the time off of work and all of the various costs.
So if you're part of a demographic where unemployment is higher, under-employment is higher, wages are less, more likely to have family members who have less and need help, more likely to be living paycheck to paycheck, high health costs mean higher rates of lower health due to the former economic factors, etc., then on top of it all you've got to be stupid enough to spend your money and time-off out baking in the sun on the playa...
This.


In order to discuss racial dynamics at the burn its helpful to first acknowledge the aspects of the systemic and institutional racism of our society.

Burning Man is an experiment above all, but it is also a product of our society. If Burning Man and the culture that surrounds it wants to fancy itself as RADICAL its nigh time to have this discussion.

And for the old white guys chiming in that racial dynamics at the burn are a non-issue, I'd like to inform you that in 2020 we are going to be talking about racism a lot more than in 2019. Just cause your "colorblind" old eyes can't see it doesn't mean it ain't there.

If it's an issue in the default world (which it is) it's an issue at the drug party in the desert.



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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by FlyingMonkey » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:54 pm

bdevoid wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:42 am
Burning Man Is A Doughnut

Image
Burning for 23 years and your 1st post is a link and a picture? :roll: (I feel like I need an extra-large bag of troll food)

Well let me be the first person to say "Welcome to ePlaya"!


I'm sorry but being old, white and cisgender (a term I consider to be a slur) I do not have the answers you seek because only you can answer that for yourself.

But that won't stop me from talking out my ass.....
- Are there racists in the world? Yes (and they come in all colors)
- Are there racists at Burning Man? Yes, there’s nothing magical about Burning Man to prevent that.
- Are you forced to associate and be discriminated by them? No, feel free to associate with the tens of thousands of Burners who are actually pretty cool. Just like you do in real life.
- Are all races and walks of life equally represented or at least statistically represented at Burning Man? No. Should they be? Is that important? Why is that important? That answer is different for everyone.

I've never felt like imposing my reality or what I think is "Right" on the burner community. You may feel that need. I would never want everyone to think and be like me. Do what you feel is right as long as it doesn’t fuck someone else’s Burn.

Again, just talking out my ass…..I’d recommend self-identifying as a Burner first & see if that helps foster an open conversation. It’s much less adversarial because it lowers barriers when everyone starts as a Burner. Identifying as a POC first frames your perspective and (believe it or not) limits your objectivity.

In the end Burning Man is an expensive & extravagant event that we all somehow justify going to in the name of freedom & self-expression. About the only barrier to attending it that I can see is the expense and having time. If someone really wants to go they will find a way (No shit, it really happens). No one has an innate right to go and are somehow being denied by an unjust racist society. To be honest it’s a lavish self-indulgent experience that a lot of people who have greater responsibilities (like supporting a family on a limited income) shouldn’t even consider attending. I’m not excluding anyone, I just think people need to check their priorities first.

So I guess the answer is YES (But it’s just a principal and not adhered to by everyone). Shocking. I know, I know, some people are asshats.

Oh yeah.......Burning Man isn't a fucking doughnut.
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by goodleaf » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:38 pm

“Identifying as a POC first frames your perspective and (believe it or not) limits your objectivity.“

Not my choice to identify as a POC first bro, I’m reminded every day by Burners and non-Burners alike. Filing this piece of advice away with “I don’t see color” - well intentioned but ultimately naive and complacent.

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Token » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:51 pm

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:54 pm
bdevoid wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:42 am
Burning Man Is A Doughnut

Image
Burning for 23 years and your 1st post is a link and a picture? :roll: (I feel like I need an extra-large bag of troll food)
Add a dash of self-promotion, as our distinguished guest is the author of the linked writ.

Yeah, the troll is strong with this one.

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by wraith » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:49 pm

goodleaf wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:38 pm
“Identifying as a POC first frames your perspective and (believe it or not) limits your objectivity.“

Not my choice to identify as a POC first bro, I’m reminded every day by Burners and non-Burners alike. Filing this piece of advice away with “I don’t see color” - well intentioned but ultimately naive and complacent.
Yup. Naive as hell to expect someone to just ignore the parts of themselves they cannot (and shouldn't be asked to) change because that perspective makes for unflattering perspective and some very valid criticism of something you like.

Much like FightingMonkey taking "cisgender" as an insult rather than a bare description of someone who identifies with the gender they were assigned at birth, it's all about the inherent biases. We can all benefit from a moment to stop, look at the assumptions we are making, and ask if they're fair or accurate.

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by Ano » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:25 pm

FlyingMonkey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:54 pm

I’d recommend self-identifying as a Burner first & see if that helps foster an open conversation.

[snip]

Identifying as a POC first frames your perspective and (believe it or not) limits your objectivity.
I had to walk away for a few days before I could adequately respond to this, and honestly I still don't have a response to it.

Instead, I've taken a screenshot of your post and I intend on printing it and sharing it with people when they want to have serious and frank discussions about the racial experience at Burning Man. This is an absolutely beautiful and fantastic example as to how incredibly ignorant people can be. It's so damn good that it should go into a book.

The only response I can muster without getting unreasonably sad:

I can't, dude. I literally cannot do that. And I'm not the one who gets to make that choice.

And once you figure out why I cannot do that, or why others cannot do that, and why we aren't allowed to make that choice, you might start figuring it out. But until then, I don't think there's too much more productive dialogue to be had here. I hope you rethink your feelings or begin to understand the experience. Have a good one.

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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by FlyingMonkey » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:47 pm

Ano wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:25 pm
FlyingMonkey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:54 pm

I’d recommend self-identifying as a Burner first & see if that helps foster an open conversation.

[snip]

Identifying as a POC first frames your perspective and (believe it or not) limits your objectivity.
I had to walk away for a few days before I could adequately respond to this, and honestly I still don't have a response to it.

Instead, I've taken a screenshot of your post and I intend on printing it and sharing it with people when they want to have serious and frank discussions about the racial experience at Burning Man. This is an absolutely beautiful and fantastic example as to how incredibly ignorant people can be. It's so damn good that it should go into a book.

The only response I can muster without getting unreasonably sad:

I can't, dude. I literally cannot do that. And I'm not the one who gets to make that choice.

Actually, you are the only one who can change that.

I can do very little to influence how people treat you. I wish I could. I can only control how I treat you. I could give 2 fucks what color your skin is. If you’re on my team or in my camp and you help out then you’re alright in my book. Obviously you have met people who are racist assholes.

Can you honestly say that there is a systemic problem with racism at burning man? I'd be curious to hear more. Would you say it's just in the Org or with the participants in general?

There’s nothing magical about burning man to keep racists from buying tickets and I'll go out on a limb and say that the event probably attracts more people with open minds than you would find in default world (statistically speaking).

It would be pretty unrealistic to think that you would never encounter a racist on the Playa. But if you have had a lot of bad experiences that’s different.

Especially if you think it has affected Radical Inclusion. Not everyone cares about the principals to be honest most probably can’t list all 10.

So aside from the people you had mentioned previously, have you felt you have ever been excluded or not welcome at a camp or art car because of the color of your skin? That would be a larger problem.

As far as the other stuff, if you're (let’s say black) and you go up to a white person and make the statement "There’s a problem with racism at burning man" most people (white folk) will automatically get defensive because the implication is "you are white. You are part of the problem". Which may or may not be true. But if you approached it differently and said "I have had X happen to me & I think people are treating me differently because I'm green". "This is something I'd like to discuss" then I think people would be more receptive. I don't know how you approached it.

When I said identify as a Burner first I meant don't start by identifying as opposite to someone else because they will be defensive & probably not talk. If you identify as a campmate, burner, artist....and have common bond with the people you want to talk to then it will go a lot easier. Yeah, your purple, but if I see you as something that I identify as too I will be more willing to have that talk. It's the difference between wanting to talk (one way) or discuss (open).

Now if someone specifically refers to you by your race (assuming in a derogatory way) they probably are a racist or at least clueless. About all you can do then is talk to them and ask why they only see the color of your skin and not your other qualities and have them explain why that matters. Depending on the quality of their answer chose to be around them or not. The playa's a big place & you can't fix stupid.

But that’s the difference. Is it individuals that you feel are racist or is it Burning man as a whole that you feel is excluding you?

Let’s have this frank discussion.
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by FlyingMonkey » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:51 pm

Some how I double posted......
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goodleaf
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Re: Does Radical Inclusion equal Racial Inclusion?

Post by goodleaf » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:26 pm

“I can do very little to influence how people treat you. I wish I could.”

This is complacency. Why don’t you (1) ask how you can help influence how people treat others or (2) research how you can help influence people? Instead of assuming you can’t?

Members of any majority population are often the best situated to influence how the majority treats others.

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