Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

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Molotov
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Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Molotov » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:01 pm

At the BWB Fall Summit a proposal was developed that will implement a sliding scale "BRC Carbon Tax" that will create additional funding streams through an increased fee in BM ticket prices to offset carbon footprint and fund sustainable and regenerative projects.

But the devil is in the details....reading on in the proposal, the sliding scale Carbon Tax increase to BM tickets will be based on the participant's distance traveled (making the event an even more west coast centered population) method of transportation (Burner Express doesn't serve areas to the east and south) , and amount of equipment brought to the playa like RVs, aircraft, mutant vehicles, generators, fixed and mobile propane flame devices, etc.

This "Carbon Tax" has the potential to drive already high ticket prices much higher, and could be discriminatory to those traveling to the event from long distances and foreign countries. So much for diversity.

Click here to read the report and draw your own conclusions.

Disclaimer:
This is only my personal opinion and I am not representing any camp or volunteer group at Burning Man.

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some seeing eye
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:31 pm

I would 1000% support a carbon tax built into the ticket. If it can be built into land transportation and generators on-playa, all the better. But the number for the greatest carbon impact is air travel.

Burning Man participants, like most people in society, are in complete denial of their role in climate destruction.

Thanks to BWB for moving the discussion forward!

Burning Man is a luxury pursuit. A week or two off work, all the "stuff," transportation, the carbon-content of the "stuff," and more, is expensive.

Own up. "Paying for my carbon-shit is oppressing me from my entitlement to Burning Man" is an unacceptable statement.

I have suggested the BLM officially institute carbon accounting for the event as a model for all BLM and NPS activities. We will have to wait for an election change to work toward it.

Where the challenge is, is to which pursuits the Burning Man climate fees are dedicated. It might not be exactly equitable to dedicate them to making Esalen 2.0 in Nevada.

(There are plenty of carbon offset calculators. One had round trip Berlin to Reno at $79. I find it hard to believe a burner taking $500-x000 a week off work + $500-2000 air fare + $500-1000 "stuff" + several hundred to several thousand dollars BxB to RV rental, can't afford a $79 carbon offset. The carbon offset for your Honda generator is a fraction of that additional.)
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Jackass » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:33 pm

Fuck that!

My carbon offset is that I use less resources driving to and camping out for a week, than I do driving to work and doing my thing for a week in the default... They're already a little overboard with the whole entertainment tax and ever increasing vehicle pass bullshit.

Are they going to charge me extra if my camp brings a fire pit, how many people in the camp will get charged for being able to have a fire??? Ridiculous, arbitrary crap in my opinion.
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Canoe » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:36 pm

Compare those proposed carbon offsets to the offsets that would be required for the various burns.

Or for the forest fires.

BM's emissions are trivial.

A few years ago, one fire in Indonesia emitted the equivalent of all the private vehicles in the U.S. for one year.

If you want to do something significant, pay to put scrubbers on the coal generators in India and China.
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by BBadger » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:48 pm

Yeah, but forest fires, and even structure burns are burning renewable resources, whereas transportation involving fossil fuels cannot be reclaimed in the same manner.

Not that I'm pushing for an environmentalist agenda, except when trying to convince people to put their money where their mouth is and not go.

One of the things that attracted me/impressed me about this event was the *lack* of an environmental agenda. The event is a celebration of creation and consumption, and basically everything that has to do with the event could, in theory, be put to more "productive" uses. But we don't go to Burning Man for that.

If this "carbon tax" will discourage more people from attending so be it. I think it'd be pretty impossible to enforce though. How are they even going to prove anyone came from a specific location?

What would be total *bullshit* is if a carbon tax encourages the greater use of mass transportation and also penalizes people for bringing (heavy) stuff to the playa. That is exactly opposite of what should be happening.
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Popeye » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:28 pm

I put a link to this page on the BWB Slack channel used by Burners working/thinking about the carbon tax idea and if and how it could be implemented. At least some of them will look at your thoughts so comment away!

The Carbon Tax is far from a done deal. At the BWB Summit many ideas where put forward. This is one of the ideas that have moved forward and are being talked about. Is it a completely stupid idea? If not what form should it take? How would you reduce carbon at the Burn? What are your priorities?
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Elderberry » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:14 am

The majority of polluting can be attributed to countries, large corporations and mother nature.

An individual's recycling contribution is a feel-good but useless contribution.
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Token » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:38 am

Oh, this is easy - everyone that gets a DGS ticket has to toss in an extra Benjamin as a carbon offset community gift.

Except Greta. Greta gets in free for life.

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by ygmir » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:51 am

Elderberry wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:14 am
The majority of polluting can be attributed to countries, large corporations and mother nature.

An individual's recycling contribution is a feel-good but useless contribution.
exactly this.^^^

the rest is "feel good hippie-ism", so people can smugly claim they are off setting their "carbon footprint" and look super cool and caring....it's all relative, IMHO. If you really "care", you should not go to TTITD. If you go, then your "caring" is tempered/diluted by your contribution, and therefor your hypocrisy is a matter of degrees, and judgement for others is illegitimate, again, IMHO.
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by XPTom » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:27 am

Where exactly is Burners Without Borders on BMORG flow chart? Are they part of our corporate governance or just another voice in the wilderness?
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

flexibility is the key to success....... and poor planning is the key to flexibility

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by some seeing eye » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:48 am

We all have opinions on this, thanks Mr Molotov for alerting us!


The project was the result of "design sprints" at a Fly Ranch BWB retreat. ePlaya & FB might be seeing it before sr staff, and certainly the board.

https://www.burnerswithoutborders.org/p ... -fly-ranch

If you go to https://www.burnerswithoutborders.org/w ... 072019.pdf and click on the lower right hand EcoSprint Workbook link of the carbon project, you can see some notes.

I understand the objection it won't "do anything" to an enormous problem. But I would say the old "consciousness raising" which the kids call "woke" has enormous value. :wink: Gen Z and post-Z is on this one. It's inspiring.

In my observation, the BORG is slow and steady in their economic plan. But they require a steady flow of new customers in their 20s+- who are going to demand action. With no action, the Burning ManTM brand is in trouble.

BWB liaison is probably 3-4 layers down from the CEO, but this issue has undoubtably been discussed before.

Let the board know your opinions!
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Token » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:45 pm

New Delhi, India.

Image

Beijing, China.

Image

Jakarta, Indonesia.

Image

Sao Paulo, Brazil.

Image

I guess we gotta start somewhere, like on the Playa would be perfect ... /s

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by lucky420 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:49 pm

Elderberry wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:14 am
The majority of polluting can be attributed to countries, large corporations and mother nature.

An individual's recycling contribution is a feel-good but useless contribution.
So you don’t try and recycle ever? So if nobody and I mean nobody ever recycled it wouldn’t make a difference? We’d have no materials made from recycled plastics so we’d have to use more oil to make more plastics, and would our mountains of plastic refuse and the plastic islands in the ocean be even bigger?

And for what it’s worth I think you can still try and recycle, combine trips (save gas $), etc and still do other things that aren’t environmentally conscious.
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Token » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:00 pm

lucky420 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:49 pm
Elderberry wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:14 am
The majority of polluting can be attributed to countries, large corporations and mother nature.

An individual's recycling contribution is a feel-good but useless contribution.
So you don’t try and recycle ever? So if nobody and I mean nobody ever recycled it wouldn’t make a difference? We’d have no materials made from recycled plastics so we’d have to use more oil to make more plastics, and would our mountains of plastic refuse and the plastic islands in the ocean be even bigger?

And for what it’s worth I think you can still try and recycle, combine trips (save gas $), etc and still do other things that aren’t environmentally conscious.
It is actually mind blowing how little of what we collect via recycling is actually recycled.

Metals like aluminum, steel, copper ... all get recycled.

Glass for the most part gets recycled.

The rest is a crapshoot... plastics in particular are iffy. Unless the plastic is sorted, uniform and clean, it either ends up in an incinerator or landfill in some third world country.

When China stopped buying our trash, things went south right-quick. Trade war.

The irony of this clusterfuck is that I remember a time where we didn’t have to recycle anything other than metals and glass, cuz we had this thing called butcher paper and it was sustainable.

And the milkman was AWESOME!

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Papa Bear » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:28 pm

Token wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:00 pm
And the milkman was AWESOME!
Was? Ours still is.

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Popeye » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:43 pm

XPTom wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:27 am
Where exactly is Burners Without Borders on BMORG flow chart? Are they part of our corporate governance or just another voice in the wilderness?
They probably aren't on any flow chart but they are talking to senior staff and have an influence. Burning Man is a do-ocracy. What is sucessfully done is replicated and improved. Money was found to buy Fly, to bring 100ish together for the BWB summit and now talking about what we can do. A lot of this is a result of EIA comments pushing BM to become more green. Burning Man's published goal is to be carbon negative by 2030. That may or may not happen but it is where we are headed. As usual the devil is in the details, we need to ensure that a worthy goal is not reached by destroying what we are.
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Canoe » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:27 pm

Token wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:45 pm
New Delhi, India.
Beijing, China.
Jakarta, Indonesia.
Sao Paulo, Brazil.
I guess we gotta start somewhere, like on the Playa would be perfect ... /s
Anything we do getting to/from and on the playa, or buying "carbon" offsets (CO2) for that, won't make a drop of a difference with those places using dirty two stroke engines, burning coal without scrubbers, a dated belief in burning field stubble and burning forest down to grow crops. The CO2 is minor; it's the PM that's doing the major climate & environmental damage, along with associated toxins.

If we're going to spend money on the issue, lets spend it where it will do some good, instead of on something that allows people to pat themselves and the back and feel good while, in practical terms, doing nothing effective.

For playa use, something of somewhat value would be a generator tax. Tax to make it more cost effective to use PV and batteries?

Or have multiple types of Vehicle Permits with different fees, scaled by type for efficiency:
  • passenger bus
  • RV/bus
  • truck/suv
  • car
with a ___ % reduction in fee if it's for an EV vehicle instead of an ICE vehicle.

p.s.
Using links to those photos instead of uploading them mean they'll disappear from this post in time.
Copyright fair use.
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:51 am

Since when do extra taxes actually get used for what they’re claimed?
Tax tax and more tax, that’s the solution.
Penalize the ones who work the most and try the hardest to make BRC, the ones bringing the MVs, big art, electricity, etc.
How about a BREAK for the ones doing the heavy lifting, and we tax the spectators more? Everyone enjoys BRC, the ones who just bus in and party are every bit as much a part of the pollution as the ones who worked and paid to bring it. Showing up to the party empty handed doesn’t make you the green one.

The best thing that will happen is the downfall of the event. And THAT will be greener.
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Token » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:55 am

Papa Bear wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:28 pm
Token wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:00 pm
And the milkman was AWESOME!
Was? Ours still is.
Ooh, I so envy ...

Granted, I can just grab a goat most months of the year and get real fresh milk.

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by ygmir » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:39 am

Canoe wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:27 pm
Token wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:45 pm
New Delhi, India.
Beijing, China.
Jakarta, Indonesia.
Sao Paulo, Brazil.
I guess we gotta start somewhere, like on the Playa would be perfect ... /s
Anything we do getting to/from and on the playa, or buying "carbon" offsets (CO2) for that, won't make a drop of a difference with those places using dirty two stroke engines, burning coal without scrubbers, a dated belief in burning field stubble and burning forest down to grow crops. The CO2 is minor; it's the PM that's doing the major climate & environmental damage, along with associated toxins.

If we're going to spend money on the issue, lets spend it where it will do some good, instead of on something that allows people to pat themselves and the back and feel good while, in practical terms, doing nothing effective.

Token and Canoe, IMHO, got it right here^^

And of course, Cap'n nails it:
Captain Goddammit wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:51 am
Since when do extra taxes actually get used for what they’re claimed?
Tax tax and more tax, that’s the solution.
Penalize the ones who work the most and try the hardest to make BRC, the ones bringing the MVs, big art, electricity, etc.
How about a BREAK for the ones doing the heavy lifting, and we tax the spectators more? Everyone enjoys BRC, the ones who just bus in and party are every bit as much a part of the pollution as the ones who worked and paid to bring it. Showing up to the party empty handed doesn’t make you the green one.

The best thing that will happen is the downfall of the event. And THAT will be greener.
all the hippie "feelgoodism" stuff, is the easy path. They don't want to, or won't, confront the dirtiest of the dirty, because it's too hard, and might be "mean", and of course, depending on the country or region that was getting pressure, someone would play some P.C. card to say we are not being nice... Until, the places mentioned by Token and Canoe, and more, address their activities, some "tech-bro" paying an extra Benjamin to bring their 40'RV and tow behind 30KW generator, is, just a thing so others can pat themselves on the back and be "more caring".....
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Token » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:34 am

There are two major drivers of our “Climate Change of DOOM” world ending hysteria...

Population Growth

Economies based on perpetual growth

At some point we will run out of the stuffs that fuels both.

CO2 has become the boogeyman of the new millennium... cuz we simple can’t live without one.

The sad part is that the real drivers of our doom, that’s just too toxic to talk about in any meaningful way.

Until we grow some hair on the peaches and change from perpetual economic growth to sustainable economies with a stable world population, the kids and grandkids be doomed, not from climate change ... we gonna kill each other cuz we hungry long before climate change gets us.

So how the fuck does this tie into TTITD ... remember the whole EIS and permit fight we just went thorough ...

The BORG wants the same perpetual growth, 100K was the target, and a month later declares some lofty sustainable plan and carbon whatnot.

I sense a grand tension between the tech-glitterati and the tree-huggies in the BORG or maybe yet, a more sinister plan by the greedeteriat: “yolk the masses for the shiny feel-good of the Green Man legacy so we can continue to endlessly grow”.

Let’s see what happens.

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:05 pm

Thanks Mr Token, agree about the elephants in the room.

To that, read Herman Daly's books on steady state economics.

On population, the low UN population forecasts bring the world population below 4 billion by 2100. Lower birth rates are driven by education and career opportunities for women, and a lesser need for large families in agriculture or to compensate for infant and child mortality.

The other good books I would recommend for a positive vision are Paul Gilding's The Great Disruption and Miller's Spent: Sex, Evolution, and Consumer Behavior. The latter is irritating to read, but has some good clues toward the end. It also has theories about burner behavior and personalities.

The elephants are not an excuse to not reduce CO2 by technocratic means. It's not either / or.

Greta is on the endless economic growth problem.

I'm not in favor of the BORG monetizing the artists, but I think they should be monetizing the regionals and lessening the need for air travel. I think their plan to change the world is delusional, but they may be using that to attract big donors.
Last edited by some seeing eye on Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by XPTom » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:44 pm

SSE wrote: [quote][If you go to https://www.burnerswithoutborders.org/w ... 072019.pdf and click on the lower right hand EcoSprint Workbook link of the carbon project, you can see some notes. /quote]

Thanks.... I didn't see the itty bitty link. It doesn't look to me like these people are searching for better ideas, just better ways to sell us on ideas they already have. Preconceived ideas are just borders within the mind..... They need to go back one step and open up that border.
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by XPTom » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:44 pm

duplicate deleted
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

flexibility is the key to success....... and poor planning is the key to flexibility

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Popeye » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:03 pm

XPTom wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:44 pm
It doesn't look to me like these people are searching for better ideas, just better ways to sell us on ideas they already have. Preconceived ideas are just borders within the mind..... They need to go back one step and open up that border.
I kind of agree with you Tom. But the preconceived ideas are the ones that come to mind first. Everyone has heard something about them and they get talked about the most- kind of the low hanging fruit.
Could you join and throw out some new stuff?
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by XPTom » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:19 pm

Popeye wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:03 pm
Could you join and throw out some new stuff?


I have an Electrical Engineering degree and I have baked silicon wafers in ovens. My opinions on solar have a good foundation. I think Lithium-Cobalt batteries are a crime against humanity and bad engineering(fire hazard). My enviro-politics lean more global and not local. I don't believe in making one end of the swimming pool a "no pee zone". I'd love to contribute as long as those asking are really asking.
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

flexibility is the key to success....... and poor planning is the key to flexibility

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by jcliff » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:19 pm

The title of this post is off the mark in suggesting that Burning Man Project is considering a "carbon tax." Burners Without Borders came up with this at their Fall Summit and from what I understand there were no BOrg officials in attendance. BWB can propose whatever they like, but they do so only as Burning Man stakeholders and not in any BOrg official capacity. They are a Burning Man Project program, but they're one of many.

Burning Man Project published the "official" party line on sustainability in July. The full text of the document is here: Burning Man Project: 2030 Environmental Sustainability Roadmap

The BOrg draft plan doesn't make any mention at all of a "carbon tax." It does discuss carbon offsets as a viable option that needs further exploration, but not in any compulsory way or in relation to increased ticket prices. The entire document is a pretty quick read, but you can jump to a list of the initiatives they plan to explore in the Appendix.

Their draft sustainability plan is less of a "plan" and more of a statement of values and goals, but I think it does a pretty good job with offering a jumping off place. Here's what I like about it:
  • It makes a pretty solid justification for why Burning Man needs to engage in environmental sustainability reforms.
  • The focus of the draft plan is largely on what the BOrg needs to move on rather than what participants should be doing.
  • They seem to be banking on incentives, education, facilitated collaboration among camps, and enhanced BRC infrastructure as the best way to get buy-in from camps.
  • The plan seems to establish that they understand the complexity and enormity of their sustainability roadmap, and that they're thinking on the right level. I appreciate that they're talking about inventing new systems rather than changing current ones....and that they're using an open-source approach that will encourage the community to get involved in creating solutions.
  • I didn't see anything that could be considered dictates, mandates, etc. for our community. For example, they don't suggest limiting opportunities for artists to burn their art on playa but do propose to work with artists to find a second life for art in other communities.


As far as the Burners Without Borders proposal, I applaud them for addressing environmental sustainability but I think they completely failed in their approach. They led with a proposed BRC Carbon Tax on ticket prices with several mentions of "creating new funding streams" for "new projects".....immediate turn-off. Their lead was already incendiary but managed to go farther into the "fuck that" realm with a suggestion to up the tax for BRC travelers, large vehicle owners, art cars, etc. Terrible move introducing a master plan with proposed taxation out in front.

As far as the Burning Man Project's draft plan....I'm totally supportive of the direction it offers. I'm with some of the other posters here that are frustrated with focusing on individuals climate change interventions rather than the 100 or so multinational corporations that are responsible for 70% or so of the atmospheric pollutants driving it. But, I also believe that climate change is the most pressing existential threat for life on earth and that it should be addressed by our community. It's right to direct responsibility to corporate polluters, but that also requires us to examine our consumer habits that keep them in business. Burning Man has a great opportunity to tap into its huge brain bank and legion of makers to create new environmental systems, models, innovations that could percolate out into our default communities. I think the BOrg sustainability draft plan is super ambitious and contains to some really big stretch goals, but I think it offers a good starting place.

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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Elderberry » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:40 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:51 am
Since when do extra taxes actually get used for what they’re claimed?
This is a topic in and of itself. And fixing it should be a high priority.
JK
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When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me

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Canoe
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Canoe » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:48 pm

some seeing eye wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:05 pm
...
The elephants are not an excuse to not reduce CO2 by technocratic means. It's not either / or.
...
It's not CO2; that was the hypothese. The conclusion (after all of the CO2/carbon offsetting businesses got rolling) was that the warming contribution was from the particulate that typically goes hand-in-hand with CO2, only many (most?) sources have significantly more PM output with a given CO2 level. So looking at CO2 is a naively lower contribution, you have to look at the PM emissions.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Canoe
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Re: Burning Man Project wants more of your $$$

Post by Canoe » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:56 pm

XPTom wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:19 pm
... I think Lithium-Cobalt batteries are a crime against humanity and bad engineering(fire hazard). ...
They can make more fire-resistant cells, but the cost goes up. I used Headway's LiFePO4 for my e-bike pack.

There is research (out of Austin?) that hopes that lithium may in a short time be replaced by solid-state batteries, with no dendrites, doped 'glass' as electrolyte (try leaking that), and 2.2x to 5x the energy density of lithium (hence EV range goes up by a similar amount for the same weight), somewhat less physical volume than lithium cells for the same Ah, degradation at 2000 charges is the same as lithium at 500 charge cycles, and most importantly, without the lithium. Fingers crossed.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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