curious about sobriety?
curious about sobriety?
since burning man is {among other things} a place where we can explore new experiences...if you would like to check out alcoholics anonomous,look for friends of bill w.meetings or visit hokey pokey camp we will be happy to chat with you.sobriety rocks![/b]
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Kinetic IV
- Posts: 2977
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:34 pm
- Location: Kyiv, Ukraine as of 10/27/06
Don't be shooting down AA. For some people it's a true lifesaver...and with all the temptations around in BRC...skygod wrote:Isn't going to BM for sobriety like going to McDonalds's for a salad?
And the Asian salad isn't that bad in a pinch.
K-IV
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Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!
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Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!
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Kinetic IV
- Posts: 2977
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:34 pm
- Location: Kyiv, Ukraine as of 10/27/06
Online posts suck sometimes because what's meant to be funny can be taken the opposite way. Sorry to kill what you were trying to do...
K-IV
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Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!
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Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!
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Cabanasprings
- Posts: 365
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:18 am
ah, so that's why men are walking around without pants! Icky "shirtcockers". Sobriety is totally cool although I think AA gets too much credit that should go solely to those who successfully emerge from it. Scientific research has shown that AA is ineffective, that their recovery rate is the same as when alcoholics just go it on their own. And there are many many problems with AA, and it is not dissimilar from a religious cult. There are recovery groups out there that are secular and whom actually change and improve their techniques over time, treating the problem as a science rather than a religion. There are even medications that have shown to be effective. I would urge everyone to google it before just taking AA as "gospel".
this is what cracks me up about blogs so many people are full of shit ...get your facts straight A A does work...it states that it is not afilliated with any faith or dogma,higher power can mean anything including aGroup Of Drunks who are willing to help the new ones .... oh as far as the psycological method,the lady who started the so called S.M.A.R.T. program got tanked and killed some people while driving... their's was a method based on self will she is now in prison...i also refer anyone to the doctor's opinion in the big book of A.A I won't bore you with a quote..read it for your self and then have an informed opinion...I'll see the rest of you at mAAcdonalds i'll be the one slouched in the corner eating a salad...by the way did you see the BED BUG?{my first art car} love ,peace,fire.
Regarding my statements that AA has been shown to be no more effective than going it alone (one study even showed you were more likely to fall off the wagon with AA), and my statement regarding AA's theology and its insistence that you believe in a higher power (and I don't buy the suggestion that atheists and agnostics can substitute "a group of drunks" or "a cheeseburger" for a higher power):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics ... 7s_critics
This institution was started by two religious fanatics. They created a program based on their faith in a Christian god, without using any true research or experimentation to acheive better results, and the institution has basically carried on its legacy of not changing the program or "The Big Book", which to me is like other religious documents, dead once they refuse to change or improve.
There are many programs out there that *can* show they offer you a better chance at recovery. And I'm not referring to that woman you cite. I said scientific proof, and I didn't offer any statement about her. I leave it up to alcoholics to do their own research on which programs work best, and which would work best for them.
But if you want to continue to praise AA as the Holy Grail, just close your eyes and do so. Or get *your* facts straight and have the wikipedia article changed. I merely wanted others to hear that there was a different side to your little message you came to preach.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics ... 7s_critics
This institution was started by two religious fanatics. They created a program based on their faith in a Christian god, without using any true research or experimentation to acheive better results, and the institution has basically carried on its legacy of not changing the program or "The Big Book", which to me is like other religious documents, dead once they refuse to change or improve.
There are many programs out there that *can* show they offer you a better chance at recovery. And I'm not referring to that woman you cite. I said scientific proof, and I didn't offer any statement about her. I leave it up to alcoholics to do their own research on which programs work best, and which would work best for them.
But if you want to continue to praise AA as the Holy Grail, just close your eyes and do so. Or get *your* facts straight and have the wikipedia article changed. I merely wanted others to hear that there was a different side to your little message you came to preach.
Abductor,
I guess it depends on what one wants to recover from. I can quit on my own, and be stuck with what is left sitting there without any substances to numb me. AA and related programs offer a way to change ones thinking, as well as have complete abstinance from substances. I personally wouldn't even object if one called it behavior modification. I rarely think of (even at BM) using drugs or alcohol, but my thinking/emotions can sure get out of whack, ESPECIALLY at BM. And, for THIS addict, I would be totally unaware of what was going on in my head, except that it was YOUR fault,.... without a 12 step program.
The God word, yes, it even bothers some members. HE/She/Goddess/Allah.....
In my initial desparartion i was going into a Catholic Church to pray on the way to the bar. Then at my first meetings, they said the Lords Prayer. Theres MY excuse for finding the nearest exit....But shit happens and i got institutionalized few months later.
Never knew Bill Wilson was a religious fanatic. He did say AA was a spiritual kindergarden tho. The 12 steps did evolve/borrow from a Christian group, the Oxford group. I suppose if Bill W and Dr. Bob were Sufis, they would have read Rumi or something. Christianity did seem to be popular in the 1930s tho. And you might be interested to know that they did explore the occult, if you will, by attending seances and such. they were very spiritually thirsty.
Personally, after 23 years of this "cult" thing (i must like em, i was a Moonie once too), I am a whole lot Less Christian than i was. My sponsor belongs to the Church of the NFL and that seems to work for him the last 20 years....
Hmmm, the Bible. it is My belief that IT has evolved. and the truth that it contained is very misconstrued many years later.
I am not saying AA is the only way. it is just the one i know works for me and others LIKE ME. And there are a lot of us on the playa. Its just the path we have found. Some people do find other ways to abstain from substance use. And if they want to meet in BRC, welcome. But for us its, AA or NA or CA or MA etc.
Hey, at least we're not robbing your house while your at BM. so something must be working. :D
I guess it depends on what one wants to recover from. I can quit on my own, and be stuck with what is left sitting there without any substances to numb me. AA and related programs offer a way to change ones thinking, as well as have complete abstinance from substances. I personally wouldn't even object if one called it behavior modification. I rarely think of (even at BM) using drugs or alcohol, but my thinking/emotions can sure get out of whack, ESPECIALLY at BM. And, for THIS addict, I would be totally unaware of what was going on in my head, except that it was YOUR fault,.... without a 12 step program.
The God word, yes, it even bothers some members. HE/She/Goddess/Allah.....
In my initial desparartion i was going into a Catholic Church to pray on the way to the bar. Then at my first meetings, they said the Lords Prayer. Theres MY excuse for finding the nearest exit....But shit happens and i got institutionalized few months later.
Never knew Bill Wilson was a religious fanatic. He did say AA was a spiritual kindergarden tho. The 12 steps did evolve/borrow from a Christian group, the Oxford group. I suppose if Bill W and Dr. Bob were Sufis, they would have read Rumi or something. Christianity did seem to be popular in the 1930s tho. And you might be interested to know that they did explore the occult, if you will, by attending seances and such. they were very spiritually thirsty.
Personally, after 23 years of this "cult" thing (i must like em, i was a Moonie once too), I am a whole lot Less Christian than i was. My sponsor belongs to the Church of the NFL and that seems to work for him the last 20 years....
Hmmm, the Bible. it is My belief that IT has evolved. and the truth that it contained is very misconstrued many years later.
I am not saying AA is the only way. it is just the one i know works for me and others LIKE ME. And there are a lot of us on the playa. Its just the path we have found. Some people do find other ways to abstain from substance use. And if they want to meet in BRC, welcome. But for us its, AA or NA or CA or MA etc.
Hey, at least we're not robbing your house while your at BM. so something must be working. :D
Its all one song- neil young
Well I applaud you for acheiving and maintaining sobriety. I stand by what I say, which came from research. I mean you say you didn't know about those guys, did you read that wikipedia info or look for corroboration elsewhere? Did you not read the Big Book and the other materials they publish and insist you learn and use, and all the talk about how you're powerless unless you believe in God? I'm not making it up, just a few of the many passages are listed in that article. I'm glad it worked for you, it's just that it seems you could have done it without having to debase and humble yourself. Any exploration of self, of psychology or philosophy, or any recovery program, would have told you that blaming someone else is wrong.
Perhaps we could agree that people should at least investigate both sides of the story and reach their own conclusions?
Perhaps we could agree that people should at least investigate both sides of the story and reach their own conclusions?
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kikidelosfeliz
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:05 pm
- Location: hollywood/losfeliz
BM = behavioral modification!
Gordo, "I would be totally unaware of what was going on in my head, except that it was YOUR fault" is a brilliantly succinct way of putting one of the wonderful things about the steps! Getting outside of the addict logic.
What I see in those who've worked the steps is the same thing I see in, say the Dalai Lama. They laugh a lot, and don't take their navel quite as seriously.
Gordo, "I would be totally unaware of what was going on in my head, except that it was YOUR fault" is a brilliantly succinct way of putting one of the wonderful things about the steps! Getting outside of the addict logic.
What I see in those who've worked the steps is the same thing I see in, say the Dalai Lama. They laugh a lot, and don't take their navel quite as seriously.
cognitive dissident
I read the other websites of alternatives and i don't think it would work for me, but its great it does for others. I can understand some of the criticisms.
from the NA website (not AA i realize, but its where i go to meetings now) :
[Central to the Narcotics Anonymous program is its emphasis on practicing spiritual principles. Narcotics Anonymous itself is non-religious, and each member is encouraged to cultivate an individual understanding—religious or not—of this “spiritual awakening.”]
Most people i know don't believe in God, but do humble themselves to a power greater than themselves. I believe humbleness is central to any spiritual or unifying practice.
yes i've read the big book, worn 2 out actually, and have spent 10 years on the couch, took psych meds. gone to church, did heroin instead of speed, drank instead of heroin, joined the moonies, whirled with the sufis, done the monkey chant, found other ways to alter my consciousness, written volumes of stuff evaluating my life and my actions. Shared those things with another individual.
12 step programs, if one chooses to work those *Suggested* steps, are
damn hardwork. you have to take a very serious look at yourself. And change you must, or sooner or later you can't stand yourself anymore
and numbing yourself seems attractive again. Its just the way it is. Change or die. i know a hell of a lot more people who died before AA/NA than after. Sobriety isn't for pussies for sure. Its the hardest thing i have ever done. And the most worthwhile.
Personal accountability can be tough. yeah, it is a program of humilty. it can be hard to look in the mirror. Even at 17 years clean, i realize stuff about myself that i don't like.
But like i said, i'm not doing major shit that i am ashamed of anymore. (I still do stuff thats not right and i have to rectify those things. and its a good thing i didn't find the asshole that stole my bike or i might have another quandry...)
The whole powerlessness thing is incomprehensible to someone who is not afflicted with it. You can't imagine what it is like to pray to die, wake up , pray not to use and its the next thing you do . day after day. Thats not humbling, thats humiliating. My personal research shows 12 step programs and humility keeps me from experiencing that anymore.
enough out of me. Its a little jumbled but I hope i clarified something for you about the "god" thing. i am not an expert but have been going to meetings for 24 years now. I did learn more about alternatives and criticisms, some that i have struggled with at times. Thanks. (that wikipedia is amazing)
What i like most is a fellowship of likeminded individuals with a common problem and a common solution. without the worship. Its the path we have found and it works for us. No, not everyone finds longterm sobriety. Yes people still die. But it does give us a chance at a responsible and productive life. There are millions of us and i can go anywhere and find one. even in a remote lobster camp in mexico. I took a count this week at a BM "Any A" meeting and it approached 70 people. cool. and we weren't out stealing bikes.
Like Flygirl originally posted.....
."..if you would like to check out alcoholics anonomous,look for friends of bill w.meetings or visit hokey pokey camp we will be happy to chat with you."
if you wouldn't like to, then i guess don't.
No Flygirl, i don't recall seeing the Bed Bug.
What did it look like? i remember some zebra deal at a meeting. I was in Anonymous Village.
did you see my playa rat in the road out front?
Gordo
from the NA website (not AA i realize, but its where i go to meetings now) :
[Central to the Narcotics Anonymous program is its emphasis on practicing spiritual principles. Narcotics Anonymous itself is non-religious, and each member is encouraged to cultivate an individual understanding—religious or not—of this “spiritual awakening.”]
Most people i know don't believe in God, but do humble themselves to a power greater than themselves. I believe humbleness is central to any spiritual or unifying practice.
yes i've read the big book, worn 2 out actually, and have spent 10 years on the couch, took psych meds. gone to church, did heroin instead of speed, drank instead of heroin, joined the moonies, whirled with the sufis, done the monkey chant, found other ways to alter my consciousness, written volumes of stuff evaluating my life and my actions. Shared those things with another individual.
12 step programs, if one chooses to work those *Suggested* steps, are
damn hardwork. you have to take a very serious look at yourself. And change you must, or sooner or later you can't stand yourself anymore
and numbing yourself seems attractive again. Its just the way it is. Change or die. i know a hell of a lot more people who died before AA/NA than after. Sobriety isn't for pussies for sure. Its the hardest thing i have ever done. And the most worthwhile.
Personal accountability can be tough. yeah, it is a program of humilty. it can be hard to look in the mirror. Even at 17 years clean, i realize stuff about myself that i don't like.
But like i said, i'm not doing major shit that i am ashamed of anymore. (I still do stuff thats not right and i have to rectify those things. and its a good thing i didn't find the asshole that stole my bike or i might have another quandry...)
The whole powerlessness thing is incomprehensible to someone who is not afflicted with it. You can't imagine what it is like to pray to die, wake up , pray not to use and its the next thing you do . day after day. Thats not humbling, thats humiliating. My personal research shows 12 step programs and humility keeps me from experiencing that anymore.
enough out of me. Its a little jumbled but I hope i clarified something for you about the "god" thing. i am not an expert but have been going to meetings for 24 years now. I did learn more about alternatives and criticisms, some that i have struggled with at times. Thanks. (that wikipedia is amazing)
What i like most is a fellowship of likeminded individuals with a common problem and a common solution. without the worship. Its the path we have found and it works for us. No, not everyone finds longterm sobriety. Yes people still die. But it does give us a chance at a responsible and productive life. There are millions of us and i can go anywhere and find one. even in a remote lobster camp in mexico. I took a count this week at a BM "Any A" meeting and it approached 70 people. cool. and we weren't out stealing bikes.
Like Flygirl originally posted.....
."..if you would like to check out alcoholics anonomous,look for friends of bill w.meetings or visit hokey pokey camp we will be happy to chat with you."
if you wouldn't like to, then i guess don't.
No Flygirl, i don't recall seeing the Bed Bug.
What did it look like? i remember some zebra deal at a meeting. I was in Anonymous Village.
did you see my playa rat in the road out front?
Gordo
Its all one song- neil young
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ckburn
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:23 pm
- Burning Since: 2000
- Location: you wouldn't believe me if i told you
With 3-1/2 years of sobriety through AA under my belt, I feel no driving need to read anyone else's ideas (corroboration?) about the program, it's history, perceived fanatacism, or anything else. It works, and it saved me from imminent death or prison. What more should I need? I love it. And I don't believe in a Christian God any more than I did when I got here. None of my close AA friends seem to, either. And we're in the Bible Belt!Abductor wrote:... did you read that wikipedia info or look for corroboration elsewhere? ... it's just that it seems you could have done it without having to debase and humble yourself. ...
And I am quite willing to "debase and humble" myself, or do anything else required of me, for my sobriety. I think cancer patients would say the same thing... debase and humble myself is all I have to do to avoid a horrible death? Hell yeah! Bring it on!
Curtis
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skygod
- Posts: 737
- Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:50 am
- Burning Since: 2004
- Location: Twentynine Palms, CA
- Contact:
Jeezus Crist I had shorts on under my djallabah I was just cold! Shirtcockers are the essence of ridiculous!Abductor wrote:ah, so that's why men are walking around without pants! Icky "shirtcockers".
As far as sobriety goes , I had to decide if I wanted to live or die, simple as that.
It's like people who smoke and they say "I wish I could quit.!" Lies! If they wanted to quit they would, they smoke because they want to.
"Come with me if you want to LIIIIIIIIIVE": that's the higher power talking to ya IMO. And that doesn't take away from it's sacredness. It's your genes talking to you.
"It will seem difficult in the beginning. But everything seems difficult in the beginning."- Musashi
What's wrong with you guys?
You don't need to have trouble with drugs to enjoy being sober at burning man.
It seems to me like one of the few places you don't need to be altered.
I wasn't so much staying sober as staying busy.
I had one cup of wine before being packed in with the nexus dome sound system on tuesday. That's out of two weeks.
You've got altitude, exhaustion and distraction to contend with.
Burning Man may cause drug use the rest of the year though.
It makes everything else seem so boring.
I did get solicited for "psychedelics" in the fire conclave by a painfully obvious narc. I told him there were drugs in Reno.
You don't need to have trouble with drugs to enjoy being sober at burning man.
It seems to me like one of the few places you don't need to be altered.
I wasn't so much staying sober as staying busy.
I had one cup of wine before being packed in with the nexus dome sound system on tuesday. That's out of two weeks.
You've got altitude, exhaustion and distraction to contend with.
Burning Man may cause drug use the rest of the year though.
It makes everything else seem so boring.
I did get solicited for "psychedelics" in the fire conclave by a painfully obvious narc. I told him there were drugs in Reno.
"Everything is more wonderful when you do it with a car, don't you think?"
-girl by the fire, watching a tree moved by car bumper in the bonfire
It would be a shame if I had to resort to self-deception to preserve my faith in objective reality.
-girl by the fire, watching a tree moved by car bumper in the bonfire
It would be a shame if I had to resort to self-deception to preserve my faith in objective reality.
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darren y
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:54 pm
- Burning Since: 2004
- Camp Name: VAMP CAMP
- Location: Sparks, NV
Re: curious about sobriety?
lets see 3 burns so far, just bought the tickets for 2007, been sober 12 + yrs.....flygirl wrote:since burning man is {among other things} a place where we can explore new experiences...if you would like to check out alcoholics anonomous,look for friends of bill w.meetings or visit hokey pokey camp we will be happy to chat with you.sobriety rocks![/b]
wouldn't want it any other way!!
aka: Mr. Mister
Re: curious about sobriety?
darren y wrote:lets see 3 burns so far, just bought the tickets for 2007, been sober 12 + yrs.....flygirl wrote:since burning man is {among other things} a place where we can explore new experiences...if you would like to check out alcoholics anonomous,look for friends of bill w.meetings or visit hokey pokey camp we will be happy to chat with you.sobriety rocks![/b]
wouldn't want it any other way!!
This year will be year 10 for me going to the Playa and year 20 for for sobriety..
I was Born OK the 1st Time....
Don't bring defaultia to Burning Man, take Burning Man to defaultia...... graidawg
Don't bring defaultia to Burning Man, take Burning Man to defaultia...... graidawg
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Ugly Dougly
- Posts: 17612
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
- Burning Since: 1996
- Location: เชียงใหม่
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misfit
- Posts: 573
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:45 pm
- Burning Since: 1996
- Camp Name: wish you were here
- Location: norcal
- Contact:
i started NA/AA when i was 16yo, thru the claire foundation in socal. seems they where more interested in sucking me off than actually getting me sober. i started using twice as much, since i really didn't want to be anything like them.... Hmmmm, maybe i didn't stay in the program long enough, but i was getting a little exausted and sore....
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unjonharley
- Posts: 10434
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
- Burning Since: 2001
- Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
- Location: Salem Or.
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flightless
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:11 pm
- Burning Since: 2007
- Location: washington, dc
- Contact:
There's an excellent "Sober on the Playa" thread over in Q&A -- I am coming to the festival for the first time this year & felt very reassured by the comments in that thread!
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=9047
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=9047
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philosopher
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:35 am
- Location: Chico, CA
About drugs on the playa: I don't see why--except habit or debilitating hangups--one would feel especially drawn to experiencing an altered state of consciousness in an altered state of consciousness. Your basic playa-altered state of consciousness, if you will just let it happen, already puts a whole banquet on your plate.
About sobriety: I think if you get it right in BRC, the proper categorical contrast is between natural ecstasies and alcohol-modified ecstasies. Having tried a lot of both, I like the personally transformative experiences of natural ecstasies more because when the ecstasy happens naturally, it is really you learning the way outside yourself instead of, in a sense, having it done for you.
About sobriety: I think if you get it right in BRC, the proper categorical contrast is between natural ecstasies and alcohol-modified ecstasies. Having tried a lot of both, I like the personally transformative experiences of natural ecstasies more because when the ecstasy happens naturally, it is really you learning the way outside yourself instead of, in a sense, having it done for you.