Non-Electric Ice Production in The Desert

[13moons]

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/10/13 ... larice.pdf

this would allow us to produce ice in the desert without electricity!

[Zhust]

this would allow us to produce ice in the desert without electricity!

The short answer is "don't camp near me." I'd hate to rain on your parade, but it's not really a very good idea for Burning Man.

Let me add that when I first heard of this, I thought it seemed like an awsome idea. My question was, "what's the catch?" This is seemingly free refrigeration -- something that costs hundreds of dollars a year in everyone's homes.

Well the catch is safety. It's pretty viable in a fixed location, but consider the safety note in the document you referenced:

Working with pure ammonia can be dangerous if safety
precautions are not taken. Pure ammonia is poisonous
if inhaled in high enough concentrations, causing
burning eyes, nose, and throat, blindness, and worse.
Since water combines readily with ammonia, a supply
of water (garden hose or other) should always be on
hand in the event of a large leak. Our current unit is a
prototype. We will not place it inside a dwelling until
certain of its safety. Unlike some poisonous gases,
ammonia has the advantage that the tiniest amount is
readily detectable by its strong odor. It doesn’t sneak up
on you!

"Anhydrous ammonia" is what we're talking about here: ammonia without any water. The stuff you buy in the store is about 5%-10% -- it'll get you a little woozy and irritate your nose if you don't use it in a ventilated area. Scroll down through the Wikipedia article on Ammonia and this is what they say about anhydrous ammonia:

Anhydrous ammonia is classified as toxic (T) and dangerous for the environment (N). The gas is flammable (autoignition temperature: 651 °C) and can form explosive mixtures with air (16–25%). The permissible exposure limit (PEL) in the United States is 50 ppm (35 mg/m3), while the IDLH concentration is estimated at 300 ppm. Repeated exposure to ammonia lowers the sensitivity to the smell of the gas: normally the odour is detectable at concentrations of less than 0.5 ppm, but desensitized individuals may not detect it even at concentrations of 100 ppm. Anhydrous ammonia corrodes copper- and zinc-containing alloys, and so brass fittings should not be used for handling the gas. Liquid ammonia can also attack rubber and certain plastics.

Ammonia reacts violently with the halogens, and causes the explosive polymerization of ethylene oxide. It also forms explosive compounds with compounds of gold, silver, mercury, germanium or tellurium, and with stibine. Violent reactions have also been reported with acetaldehyde, hypochlorite solutions, potassium ferricyanide and peroxides.

That's when I started to think it was a bad idea. To set up all the plumbing with only black-iron pipe (no galvanized because it contains zinc) and stainless steel (no brass, copper, or soldered joints) seemed like a headache in the first place. Making it portable and easy-to-use challenges the safety factor. And then the way to combat a leak is with generous amounts of water -- gosh, just exactly what we don't have in Black Rock.

Couple that with tight living quarters and limited access to medical facilities, and setting one up in a camp seemed like an invitation for a disaster -- the "hundreds died in their sleep" kind of disaster. I wasn't ready for that kind of responsibility.

It may be viable, but I thought it too complex to handle. Setting it up as an alternative to Arctica (competition, even?) where people can get their water frozen overnight could be neat, as long as it was pretty far away from the camps.

[capjbadger]

Ran across this same PDF a few years back. Always wondered why Camp Arctica didn't set up something like this instead of running all those trailer freezers and shipping all the ice.

Badger

[MikeVDS]

It's just extremely dangerous. Even if you know what you're doing there is a high danger associated with it. You'll see big dairy and meat companies using this and a few specialized needs, but there is a reason most of us pump refrigerant. If you want to try this I believe you need to have a special license but I'm not 100% sure about that. Of course you could do it without but considering the dangers you really should know more than the minimum if you're setting this up yourself.

[mdmf007]

Keep it simple, I had a propane powered fridge / freezer. If you turn up the flow, it would freeze 12 milk jugs in about 3 hours.

already a proven tech, as is ammonia - but I do not like the idea of having to respond to an ammonia leak on playa built oput of Home Depot plumbing parts.

just my 2 cents

[gyre]

15 lbs of ammonia doesn't sound too radical.
I have an older fridge that uses ammonia with a compressor.
It hasn't leaked yet.

Ammonia will corrode aluminum really well.

[BAS]

I've seen that PDF as well, and decided that I didn't want to risk accidentally inhaling the ammonia while assembling and/or testing the thing. Added to that is worrying about whether or not someone will come across it and think it is some sort of interactive art exhibit really turned me off to the idea. (More the fact that if someone releases the ammonia innocent bystanders could be killed or seriously injured, than worry about the person who ignored the warnings which I would have to put on it.)

The propane powered fridge mentioned above seems to be the better approach for portable cooling and ice making, IMHO.


B.

[Captain Goddammit]

Almost every camper/trailer/motorhome has a propane fridge with a freezer, and most are capable of getting very cold. They use very little propane, are silent, and generally work great. I'd say go get one out of an old RV being parted out. New ones are alarmingly expensive. Try before you buy though!

[geekster]

My grandfather's business was a frozen food locker plant that used ammonia refrigeration. We had gas masks hanging on hooks in case. Early home refrigerators were kerosene units that also used ammonia so there have been designs that used ammonia inside the home.

Most of the information on anhydrous ammonia is probably designed more for agricultural quantities where one might be working with hundreds or thousands of gallons of the stuff at a time. It is pretty easy to get and any meth lab operator should have a large supply on hand so just drive up into the Santa Cruz mountains and sniff around or check out a local agricultural coop.

Most electric/propane RV refrigerators ARE ammonia refrigerators by the way. Ammonia is the working fluid and it uses only a very small ammount. Here is one example:

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-r ... rm2620.htm

[geekster]

Most RV refrigerators are the "continuous cycle absorption" type that is described here:

http://www.nh3tech.org/abs.html

They use a small gas flame as the heat source but anything could be used such as a candle.

[gyre]

They can use electric too.
It isn't as efficient as a compressor though.

[robotland]

How to produce ice without ammonia:

Locate Center Camp. Look for the long line somewhere Westish of the shade structure and stand in it. At the end of the line, produce two bucks. Haul resulting ice back to camp and enjoy!

TIPS: -It can help the time to pass if you remember to bring hand puppets and annoy those around you in line with them.

-Hanging a bag of ice from each end of your bicycle handlebars is a tried and true method for crashing said bike.

[dragonfly Jafe]

.....We had gas masks hanging on hooks in case...

That might do something (not sure what - maybe there was something in the filter to absorb ammonia) in a small leak, but in a big leak a gas mask will not help you - you are still lacking oxygen, and will pass out quickly in a large ammonia cloud. Better to spend that time running to get away. You need a SCUBA breathing system to safely go into an ammonia cloud.

But then that was the old days for you (my Grandpa's farm was a place of delight as well as danger - I especially enjoyed helping him uproot trees using dynamite)

I also would imagine some of the spilt ammonia would soak into the Playa. How would ammonia and Playa react, anyone know?

Interesting, but hardly practical for Burningman. Unless someone wanted to build one on a trailer (for use at the cabin or whatever) - then haul it down to use it for a week at BM. Otherwise the setup - monitoring - tear-down would dominate your entire burn. Just spend a lot less $$$ buying the ice, or buy a propane fridge.

[gyre]

Wouldn't want to do anything impractical while I cross the country to camp in a desert.

[robotland]

Wouldn't want to do anything impractical while I cross the country to camp in a desert.

Touche'!

-If I remember my chemistry, when ammonia contacts playa it produces a cloud of Earth Guardians.
Just watched the "Stinky Car" episode of Mythbusters again not long ago...They were surprised at how quickly the ammonia from the rotting pig carcasses penetrated their respirators and overcame them. All it takes for me is some slightly vintage cat litter.

[geekster]

The point stands, though, that just about every single absorbtion fridge used in RVs, popup campers, and boats is an ammonia fridge.

[phil]

Captain and bartender of the "Playa Cruiser" margarita-serving cabin cruiser mutant.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05 ... n_marg.php
says Mexican farmers are burning their fields of blue agave so they can plant the more profitable corn crop.

And German farmers have switched to corn instead of barley, so you know what that means vis-a-vis German beer.

A long, cold future ahead of us with propane fridges and no beer, no margaritas.

[phil]

Sheesh, guys. This is Burning Man. You all sound like a father whose teenage daughter is about to go out on her first date and she asked what a BJ is.

[Ugly Dougly]

Maybe freon would be better for the environment.

[MikeVDS]

This is Burning Man. You all sound like a father whose teenage daughter is about to go out on her first date and she asked what a BJ is.

This is true, but he's asking about them. If he knew what he was doing, he'd just do it in ways he knew were fine and no one would know any different. Once he knows what he's doing he can make his own decision on if he can handle such a project. With some things, if you have to ask, the answer is no.

[Tiahaar]

The point stands, though, that just about every single absorbtion fridge used in RVs, popup campers, and boats is an ammonia fridge.

Yep. And I've actually seen ads in ebay selling used ones that say 'nice fridge, smells of ammonia...' Ha, which means they are leaking and thus virtually scrap. You used to hear of shops that would repair and recharge them but now the best you can do is get a whole new cooling unit installed, or pay $$$ for a new one. Or, get lucky and find a wrecked RV and salvage the fridge (I just scored!!...have the older take-out unit here in SB if anyone is interested.)

Oh hey, speaking of anhydrous ammonia got a photo to share of how that was used on the ranch I worked for. Note the big white tank on the tractor below, it was charged with the AA which was then injected into the ground by the grain drill for fertilizer. The truck to the right had three tanks of the anhydrous in the bed, driven up to the ranch and back by we young 20-something non-hazmat drivers...Idaho was pretty lax then.

The bottom photo shows what happened when a tank valve got knocked off by yours truly. The boss was guiding me back into a shed to protect the seed grain in the back-end of the truck and didn't notice that the filling valve tower on the rear tank just missed clearing a beam. There was a 'crack', than a mighty 'HSSSSSS' and he was all like "Get Out Of There!!" I thought he meant get the truck out of the garage so I gunned it forward a ways till it dawned on me to evacuate...just turned off the key and bailed out the door with the truck still rolling. Huge cloud of toxic gas spread all down the ranch...after a quarter hour or so the pipe iced up enough that the boss was able to poke at the valve with a long stick and close it. Nasty stuff, a whiff will knock you over.

[gyre]

There are places you can get used rv fridges.
The newer ones don't destabilize in storage because of some design change.
Often the old ones have be flipped over to restart them.
It's a pain to remove them.

12 volt is the way to go if they will be plugged in most of the time.

[Ugly Dougly]

Don't you dare bring anything flammable out to the playa.
Might cause a conflagration.
Would't be prudent.

[Zhust]

For some reason the neurons didn't fire, but I now recall that Coleman has a powered cooler that works with Stirling technology. The caveats are that it's extremely expensive and can only be operated when placed on a level surface (relatively speaking -- I guess it will work okay inside a car, just not tipped at 45 degrees). The huge advantage is it can "keep items frozen in temperatures over 100°F outside", differentiating it from the Peltier-based coolers that can attain a maximum 50-degree-Fahrenheit difference.

I don't fully understand the thermodynamics of it, but the central fixture is a Stirling engine powered by a shaft that creates a temperature difference. Traditionally a Stirling engine works by turning a temperature difference into rotary power. Unlike an internal combustion engine -- which when powered by a shaft won't cool the air and turn exhaust gas to fuel and oxygen (wouldn't that be wild) -- the Stirling cycle permits at least a partial reversal.

I wonder if a solar collector can drive a Stirling engine to turn the shaft on a Stirling cooler. ... hmm ...

[dragonfly Jafe]

now that it pretty cool, even if it is $500!

and it only draws 48 watts....or about 1200 watts each day. 4 solar panels would cover that with a little to spare.

[LeChatNoir]

I'm thinkng about getting or making a dry ice makerfor this year to keep one cooler as a freezer.

[Fex]

A guy I know has a couple dry ice makers of different sizes that he uses with his FX company. They're not super-efficient, but when they shoot on location where it's impractical to buy blocks of dry ice ahead of time and store it, it's been a real bacon-saver. If you're going to be using it a few times, like over the course of a week, you'll need a good size CO2 bulk tank. The tanks are pricey but you often see them going up on eBay. The bulk CO2 refills aren't too bad pricewise.

[Ugly Dougly]

A guy showed me a gizmo that he called Maxwell's Demon. Air was blown in one end and exited in two places. In the first place, the air was hot, and in other place it was cold. What was that?

[Zhust]

Oh, and another one I actually want to try this year: take a large-sized, unglazed terracotta pot with no drain hole, insert a vessel (possibly also terracotta but I'll probably go with metal or plastic) an inch or two smaller than the large pot, fill the void between with sand then add water and let it soak in. The terracotta will leach the water, allowing it to evaporate and driving the temperature of the inner vessel close to the dew point.

It's an effective evaporation technique in hot, windy, arid climates. I learned about it from Keeping your cool, Replacing the Humble Refigerator [sic] -- By Nev Sweeney.

[Zhust]

A guy showed me a gizmo that he called Maxwell's Demon.

I saw a similar real-world demonstration, but the device would tend to have a pretty consistent second-law thermodynamic failure that they were trying to fix but at least they did manage to measure a theoretical temperature difference. The good news was that it didn't need anything but standard plumbing fixtures so it was environmentally safe, and it barely used any power at all.

Unlike the ammonia refrigeration, I'd like to camp by somebody who decided to make one of these!