A question for the girls.....

djaded · Post by **djaded** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:05 am

2004 will be my girlfriend and I's first burn (we are a lesbian couple). I have been seeing some stuff on this board about sexual assault and rape and it kind of worries me. I understand that most of the men at BRC are polite and respectful to women, but I seem to be hearing that many "frat boys", that are around my girlfriend and I's age (20-25), aren't so courteous. Whenever we go out we are always approached by men who are trying to "score with the lesbians" and I would like to think that at BRC things are different. So....whats the real deal? I want enter the playa with an open heart and mind and I think that a drunk guy (or girl for that matter) making unwelcome advances towards me, my GF, or any woman in BRC could hinder my experience. Any suggestions to help avoid this?

III · Post by **III** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:28 am

>hinder my experience

there are lots of things that might hinder your experience.

(you'll pardon me for being a guy, and answering this, i hope).

having an open heart and an open mind doesn't mean that you need to turn off your brain. even though it's a different city, it's still composed of people who live in the same rest of the world you know. there are a lot of good ones, and a couple of bad ones.

you'll find that alternate sexualities generally *aren't* an issue, and you're more likely to be hit on by people because you're cute than because you're lesbians. in fact, being gay is probably one of the more pedestrian things to define yourself as at brc.

assaults of various sorts do happen out there, but can be prevented by the same things that prevent it in the regular world: hang out with your friends, and stay clearheaded enough that you are aware of what's happening to you. you don't need to be hypervigilant, simple awareness should be enough to ward off most problems.

djaded · Post by **djaded** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:50 am

ya.... I understand that there are alot of things that could make my experience crappy but I see this as being the bigger one. I just really have no idea what BRC is REALLY like. After reading some negative experiences I pictured the whole mardi gras scenerio.......college boys walking up to every cute girl and asking to see her boobs. I am sure it is not like this, that is just what flashed into my head. *SNAP* I am pooping on my experience as we speak

. Thanks for the input I will take your advice to heart.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:10 am

Ugghhh, another guy responding.

It was my second year, and I still don't know what BRC is REALLY like.

I was hit on pretty heavy by a few guys that I wasn't attracted to at the poly camp. I was polite and moved on. and I also found it kind of flattering. But I understand that you might not.

In general I think you'll find that sexual harrasment is less of a problem on the playa, but not non-existant.

III · Post by **III** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:18 am

>mardi gras scenerio

it's very much not like that (or any other girls gone wild kinda thing) though you get the occaisional person expecting that.

it only gets dangerous because at times it feels so safe that you let yourself go, and the next thing you know you're ina situation you didn't want to be in.

from my own experience (and just for illustrative purposes - what actually ended up happening wasn't really harmful, though i found it personbally unpleasant - but because it illustrates that where you want to go isn't always where you end up):

i was running the radio in my village one windy morning, well before most people wer eup and about. i was playing some fairly pop tune that one of my friends had written, and decided to go dance, just by myself, out in the dust storm. as i'm out there, a girl wearing a white gown and angel wings comes dancing up, not too close, but definitely in the same space as me. we dance around each other, getting closer, pulled into each other's gravitational fields. as she gets to within about 3 feet of me, she pulls out a rubber dart gun that's had a big pair of mick jagger lips attached to it, and points it at my chest and pulls the trigger. after the lips bounce off my chest, she tells me that i've been hit with her kiss gun, and i need to give her a kiss. it turns into quite the kiss, going on with windstrom, and the music, and the more kissing and just her and me in the middle of nothing. well, mostly. because over the sound of the music, i hear the sound of shutters snapping. i look up, and see a couple of photographers snapping away. what i had felt was a close personal experience between two individuals was now just a spectacle for people to photograph. the moment was ruined - what i though had been a safe space ended up being just as vulnerable to people who wanted to look, but not connect, as anywhere else in the world.

dunno. maybe that story trivializes the problem. i'm a big, not sexy by mainstream standards, kinda guy. i'm not likely to face the same sorts of problems you do. but i hope that the idea of not just trusting a space because it feels right will carry over anyways...

djaded · Post by **djaded** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:27 am

YES! It is kinda the same thing. Having an intimate moment with someone and then all the sudden the specialness is broken because frat boys (in your case camera people) butt in an make you a spectacle. Your kiss was for you, not so others could enjoy the show.

djaded · Post by **djaded** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:37 am

blyslv- That actually raises another question. We are wanting to experience the poly camps in a *mostly* observing way. Being open minded and a younger couple what can we expect? From what I have read we I assume there is slightly older (which is not a bad thing) crowd, correct? Do you have any suggestions to thwart unwanted attention from overly eager poly people?

III · Post by **III** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:59 am

>Do you have any suggestions to thwart unwanted attention from overly eager poly people?

be prepared for blunt communication. saying no generally works, but you actually have to say "no", as opposed to trying to convey the message with body language. on the very low chance that there is someone who won't take "no" for an answer, other people in the crowd will be more than happy to help reeducate him or her.

DangerMouse · Post by **DangerMouse** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:01 am

Yet another guy here...

Only, in my case, I haven't arrived at BM yet.

Trey's experience was out in the open. While it may have been a personal experience, he was out where people could witness it and react in the way that they will. For right or for wrong. I'd hate to have my 'moment' ruined when I hit the playa.

People's reactions, such as a special moment you share with your significant other, will vary depending on the crowd you're with at the time. If you're with a group of open-minded or like-minded people, chances are they'll understand. If you're with a bunch of Frat-boys, well expect them to behave in whatever way Frat-boys do.

If you're really worried about it becoming a spectacle or don't want others to react. Do it privately.

Sorry if it sounds callous or like a cheap-shot. It's not meant that way at all. Simply you accept that you are in a situation, and others will react to that situation. You can't expect someone (frat-boy or not) to turn off who they are so that your moment isn't respected in the way that you want. You being around them makes you part of their experience as well.

I would expect that most of the sexual assault and rape issues can be avoided, as Trey said, simply by making good decisions and being alert. Which is good advice for anyone regardless of gender.

III · Post by **III** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:09 am

>Do it privately

which was kind of the point of my whole story: there are times where you'll be in a public space (say someone's chill dome), but get the totally safe vibe as if you were in a private space. that vibe can turn around in a heartbeat. it sucks when it happens, but it does.

one of the cool things, but also one of the things that can get you into trouble, is the restructuring or elimination of a number of different social moires. those moires exist for a reason, though, and eliminating them requires individuals to make up for it with decent interpersonal communication. that can be fairly difficult for some people.

as for privacy, you'd be surprised how little you actually get out there...

djaded · Post by **djaded** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:17 am

It is true that in many cases, rape and assault can be avoided by keeping a clear mind and being alet and me and my GF will almost always be sober (at least one of us) at all times. It is also true that if we want to share a moment together that we should understand that others might not react how we want them to in response to our actions. I am really more worried about having encounters like we experience at home i.e. simply holding hands in public and being approached (and sometimes propositioned and verbally degraded) by men. I am totally fine with men hitting on us all they want as long as it is respectful and appropriate. Hell, sometimes slightly over the line is ok as long as the advances are in good fun. I dunno I just read some things a few women had written and became aprehensive.

DangerMouse · Post by **DangerMouse** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:29 am

djaded wrote:I dunno I just read some things a few women had written and became aprehensive.

Also keep in mind that people tend to focus and display the negative more than the positive.

That whole: If someone gives you good service, do you tell them and everyone else just as often as you would if you received bad service?

Here's my mindset for my first trip to Burning Man. I show up, experience it. If I don't like it, I don't have to come back. If I do, great, maybe I'll go back.

III · Post by **III** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:55 am

>I am totally fine with men hitting on us all they want as long as it is respectful and appropriate. Hell, sometimes slightly over the line is ok as long as the advances are in good fun.

i think (for what *that's* worth) that you'll do just fine.

another story, to kind of balance out the previous one:

i was driving a bar car around (same year as the previous story - i think i was just a kissing slut that year) for a wedding party, and we stopped off at some porta potties to allow those that had a bit to drink to empty themselves. while we were waiting, this cute couple starts talking to me, and points out all the making out going on. somehow i end up kissing the girl for a bit. her man friend interrupts, and says he's getting a bit jealous. he then proceeds to grab me, and make out with me as well. (yeah, i'm pretty darn straight, but he was cute, and kissed well). it was good fun, safe, and didn't involve any further expectations on either side.

oh, and i do have one friend who experiences some trouble with his orientation out there. he is a woman who identifies as a gay male, but will only play with other women who identify as a gay male.(he used to be a big beautiful bull dyke. now he's a big beautiful fag. i like him either way.) the trouble comes when people can't keep track of that, and refer to him as a lesbian, or girlfriend, or somesuch thing. it makes him all upset.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:13 pm

Well, here's yer female perspective.

I think you're worrying about it too much. In six years on the playa, I've
been hit on, flirted with, kissed, and handed a strange penis. I've had a
guy ask my (male) campmate if he could photograph me as I got dressed
after a shower. I've never had what I'd qualify as a creepy experience,
though.

Show the same sort of common sense you'd show at a party where you
know a few folks, and the vibe is generally good, but where
different-minded folks might show up too. If you're on something
mind-altering (including alcohol), make sure you're not wandering out
alone. If you get a creepy vibe, listen to it. The city is huge and there are
many other places you could be.

The frat-boy vibe gets talked about a lot, but it's not nearly as prevalent
as you might think from that. I find that avoiding Center Camp and
trolling the esplanade reduces my fratty interactions by about 90%, but
that's not to say that there aren't other good things going on in those
spots.

alice · Post by **alice** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:14 pm

ok, so i'm a girl (tho i've been accused of being otherwise) and i've never had a problem with men at burning man. i agree with trey about the importance of being aware and alert, but i also think it has a great deal to do with how one carries themselves.

i've had all kinds of public displays of affection on the playa, none of which were met with any kind of disrespect. but i think my successes were due, in large part, to the fact that my former partner and i worked hard to create a safe space for ourselves in the presense of others.

of course, it could all be a matter of dumb luck.

best of luck to both of you.

b.

djaded · Post by **djaded** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:58 pm

That is all good advice and insight. I feel a lot better about the whole thing. I am just used to living in the deep south where two attractive women holding hands quickly become the town spectacle and men think that girls date other girls because they are slutty and want attention from men. You know what, I don't really care about being hit on by men as well women as long as they are respectful. We are attractive, fun, self assured people and our openess usually draws people to say what they feel (even if they feel like being horndogs

). I just wanted to make sure the vibe in that aspect was decent for me to let my hair down a bit. I would be a stormy rain cloud if I was going to be approached by drunk guys every two seconds who ask my GF and I to kiss again while trying to grab our asses. If I wanted that, I would save my $250 and go to a frat party. I am so excited now, however. Everything I have heard has been mostly positive about burning man. I just wanted to explore the negative side to all the fun. It seems with a little common sense, planning, and maybe some dumb luck there is no reason I shouldn't have fun with my 30,000+ new friends! (minus a few wankers)

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:26 pm

I personally was looking for more feed back from the girls since some of the local group have asked if I would start doing some self-defense training. I have been thinking about it and what Burning Man specific additions need to be made. Not additions to 'this is how to crush an instep' but more along the lines of a way to stress, and stress heavily, that while this truly is a community you don't always have to be polite or respectful of feelings or go out of your way to avoid embarressing someone if that someone is making you or someone else feel uncomfortable. I believe that in general at Burning Man and Burner activities that to make most people go away all you have to do is tell them so. On the other hand some people need a bit more instruction and if that means speaking loudly or even yelling at them you need to do it. Example, at a mixed party last summer the burner types wandering around cuddling and whatnot and then one of the non-burners decided that he wanted in on the action and put his arms around one of the girls. At first she did not realize that he was no one she knew until she looked up and gave the perfect response: she said VERY loudly 'Who the fuck are you!'. This accomplished two things; it told him, and the like minded, that this was unacceptible behavior and got the attention of everyone nearby. Looking out for other people is a bit harder unless you know them; but a simple 'Everything ok?' is not too invasive and tells any unacceptible person that they are being noticed and watched.

Anyway, I am still thinking on presentations.

I have trouble believing that your holding hands or kissing your GF would get a second glance a Burning Man.

Last note, there is a 60/40 or 65/35 male/female split a Burning Man in a sexually charged atmosphere. You will get hit on by both men and women, it not because you are gay it is because someone is hoping to get lucky. Just say no, if that does not work start talking loudly and some of that 60% and some of that 40% will wander over to be a knight in shining armor.

Silver

SHARPER · Post by **SHARPER** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:31 pm

I've been reading this thread and trying to stay uninvolved with the posts, but after reading everything that you have asked, I can't help but wonder two things either 1) you get harrassed a lot about your lifestyle choice or 2) you over worry. Now, I don't want to offend you, but to me the whole thing about BM (or my idea of BM, since I haven't actually been yet) is that I have finally found a place where I can be myself without being ostracized. Do you really think that in an open minded event of 30,000 people you will be the only same sex couple? To me the whole thing is about self expression without doing harm to another individual. As long as you are not stabbing me with your pitchfork I'm good. I'm female, 2004 will be my first BM, and I am going alone. Fears, no, can't say that I have any. Worried about being hit on by males and/or females? God, I hope so! my ego would love it. Those who push beyond what I would be confortable with will get ignored. I'm really not at all concerned. Except, what do I do if no one hits on me?

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:44 pm

a few years ago my girlfriend and I were dancing in a camp on the Esplanade when my gf felt tired so she went to go sit on one of the couches. A few moments later another girl sat beside her and without even exchanging words this random girl started trying to make out with my girlfriend. My girlfriend was pretty shocked, but managed to push the other girl away. The other girl started to apologize for her rude behavior, rather profusely, to which my gf responded "It's cool, it's cool." This sent the girl back into attack mode trying to get her tongue down my girlfriend's throat, more pushing and yelling ensued and she backed down for the second time. Finally my girlfriend said "LOOK, I meant it was cool that it happened the first time, not for you to do it again!"

I guess the moral to this story is say what you mean, be clear, and creeps come in all sizes, genders and sexual orientations.

alice · Post by **alice** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:56 pm

SHARPER wrote:. I'm really not at all concerned. Except, what do I do if no one hits on me?

don't you worry, doll. i'll hit on you, if you want.

even if you are the mom that loves me!

djaded · Post by **djaded** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:11 pm

Well, those are good points but I don't really know what to expect from burning man. I have been to art and music festivals and I am just trying to get a sense of how different society in BRC is and what I should do to maximize my pleasure during the whole thing. Like I said, don't care if I get hit on. It would just really ruin the experience for me if I got there and had to constantly fight off unwanted advances (not from the attention I draw as a female but the attention we draw as an openly affectionate lesbian couple). Basically, I want to find out if burning man is for me. Yes, we get harassed a lot about holding hands and the occasional kiss (by harassing I usually mean sexual harassment, we are not ostracized usually). Yes, I might be over worrying. I think I am justified to be worried though, because burning man is supposedly a very sexually charged atmosphere and my gf and I try to put ourselves in safe settings where we feel free to openly express our affection. Burning man goers are not discriminatory to homosexual couples. I agree with you on that. However, there are many forms of oppression. If at any time I feel like I cannot openly be affectionate (within reason) with my gf for fear of being made a public spectacle or sexually harassed, that is where the problem lies. From what I have heard from when I started this thread though it should not turn out this way if I find the right people to associate with like all the cool peeps who have helped dissipate my fears

SHARPER · Post by **SHARPER** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:24 pm

Alice wrote: don't you worry, doll. i'll hit on you, if you want

ooh baby ooh baby ooh baby!

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:51 pm

djaded wrote: We are wanting to experience the poly camps in a *mostly* observing way. Being open minded and a younger couple what can we expect? From what I have read we I assume there is slightly older (which is not a bad thing) crowd, correct? Do you have any suggestions to thwart unwanted attention from overly eager poly people?

A lot of what you experience will depend upon the vibe you put out.

I only spent a few hours in this one camp and found the people very friendly. Some of them stopped by my bar later on, which was very nice I think some do workshops n'such but I can't really speak for them.

"Observing" can be a loaded concept, espcially since BM is "participants only." It's one of the rules.... If your curious about polyamory feel free to ask people. I did and they were very forthcoming. But I didn't go there to observe. I was looking for a boatload of self-help books.

If people of different ages bums you out, sorry, best to get used to it. There's a lot of different ages out on the playa.

It's funny, but the only truly offensive (and only slightly so) sexual advance I received was from a woman rolling hard and wearing no pants.

WHEEEE!

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:53 pm

> a woman rolling hard

Yeah, e-tards can be a pain. But they're easily distracted by shiny things.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:00 pm

I think it is important to remember that BM does not have to a sexually charged place. Just 'cuz us horndogs got a lot to talk about...

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:43 pm

I think it is important to remember that BM does not have to a sexually charged place

I think it is a sexually charged place, empirically speaking, and I don't think that's a good or bad thing necessarily, it's just something you have to be aware of.

djaded · Post by **djaded** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:55 pm

I think I miscommunicated my questions

. By "observing *mostly*" I meant we would be participating to the degree that my GF anf I felt comfortable in the poly camps. Also, I did not say I had a problem with hanging out with an older crowd in the poly camps (they probably have a few things to teach me) I was just wondering if I could expect a similiar age range (35-45) that we find at the Texas "lifestyle" clubs and parties. My bad.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:08 pm

Chai Guy wrote: I think it is a sexually charged place, empirically speaking, and I don't think that's a good or bad thing necessarily, it's just something you have to be aware of.

It might be fun to come up with an objective metric for "sexually charged place." Then we could compare it to things like NASCAR races, professional boxing, and church services.

Dragontear · Post by **Dragontear** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:34 pm

Hi, my name is Tiffany. I'm 15 years old and am Bisexual. Last year was my first burn. So I thought I would start posting a few months before the event to meet people. Well, unfortunely my first post was a little to out there. I posted that I was 15,what I liked and that I was bi. Alot of people jumped on me about that post but in the long run I made a lot of friend once we got it all straight due to my great big brother. Sadly though I did not get a girl from the post. All well! Anyways I agree with Sharper. Burning Man is a place to let go and test your self and try new things. I was scared being 15 and going to a event so open. It was awesome! I saw girls kissing guys kissing and no one cared because it is accepted at Black Rock City. This is a City that only exisit one week of the year. Over half the people you will never see again. Being 15 and coming from the Midwest where it is more closed minded I could not help but open my heart and be free there. It was like I grew wings when I stepped on to that playa. I came home and my mom was like "OMG!" going was the best thing ever. I would not worry about the attention you will get from being lesbian. In BRC we welcome people everyone as they are and love you for you. Also because you are lesbian you might be more accepted in a way. I hope you have a great burn in 2004! May the Man watch over you!

Post by **actiongrl** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:50 pm

I have always felt safer in BRC than any other city on earth. I've walked around naked all alone, and received only a modicum of special attention. (I stopped doing it this year because of the barrier I found it put between me and certain types of people, but it was more to do with psychology than feeling "intimidated".)

It's still a city; we still have to watch out for ourselves and each other, and when a bad boy/bad girl acts out inappropriately, I definitely feel safer calling them out on it than I do anywhere else.

A question for the girls.....

A question for the girls.....

Another guy

worry much?

Re: worry much?

hey girlie girl