2009 Moop map

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:36 pm

Is it just me, or does the new moop map on the main page say 2008?

btw.... from the '09 map I've seen, It was a pretty good F*in year!!

Thanks to all of you that cared enough........................

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:10 pm

Here's the 2009 posted at SF Decom -

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:24 am

Year after year the big sound camps come up red on the map. When will the org step up and ban these groups from attending?

Yes, I know this is unlikely due to the people these camps draw, but still...

C.f.M. · Post by **C.f.M.** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:35 am

Already a thread

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... highlight=

Or, at least, I already posted in a thread, don't know which one was first.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:47 am

be careful sput.

we have people everywhere, even in detroit...

granted, we have to give them hazard pay, but, we will find you, and we will make you wear the ribbon.

how dare you post your opinion.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:32 am

Not "The Ribbon"! Anything but "The Ribbon"!

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:47 am

The Ribb On...
I thought...
OH!!!
The Rabbit in the Brear patch...

Ill shut up now.

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:31 pm

The Pabst Blue Ribbon???

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:57 pm

It would be easier for the big sound camps if people carried their own MOOP bag with them. Why should the sound camp be responsible for their audience's garbage?

I recall an interview with what'shisname from OT a couple years ago and they have to rent a truck just to haul out the garbage that's left at their camp by participants. Given that they don't have access to BMORG art funding that means that truck rental and garbage disposal cost is coming outta someone's pocket.

I know there's lots of angst around about DJs and loud music but the big sound camps seem to follow the rules for the most part. I think participants need to kick it up a notch when they go to the big camps for entertainment. They seem to be treating it not like art but like a bar scene where someone is going to pick up after them.

I'd recommend that some DPW bouncers could do a number on the crowd for a couple nights by urging people to pick up after themselves.

Just my two cents.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:59 pm

Deb Prothero wrote:It would be easier for the big sound camps if people carried their own MOOP bag with them. Why should the sound camp be responsible for their audience's garbage?

Well, they are in some mild sense "instigators." They know what their audience is like and that they should plan for that. They could distribute moop bags, with the camp logo on it, as schwag. I know, another expense. I think people should pick up after themselves. It's up to the sound camps to find a way to kick them in the butt.

Deb Prothero wrote:I'd recommend that some DPW bouncers could do a number on the crowd for a couple nights by urging people to pick up after themselves.

Well, that's between the camps and the DPW. If they want to do that sort of outreach, I don't think that anyone would stand in their way.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:56 am

I'd suppose, the biggest moop days are burn weekend?
if so, I'd also assume a lot of the moop comes from Yahoo/frat/weekenders........
many of whom come just for the party, not the "spirit" (however you define that), of the event........and, really, don't put that much effort into it.

Human nature is to let others clean up.........and, add drugs, altered conscientiousness of other sorts, loud music, etc.....and, I bet a lot is even left accidentally....."it just fell out of my pocket, I guess"........dude.........

I'd be more inclined to think the camps need to plan for it, and, address however they choose, whether "It's moopy time" breaks, or, volunteers at the end......whatever the method.

I do though, think, that DPW bouncers would be antithetical to the spirit and mood of the event......Some of those folks can be pretty darn aggressive and abrasive on their own.....give them a job "enforcing", and, well............

It'd be neat if someone had one of those "beach groomer" machines I saw in Ft. Lauderdale during spring break one year............it ran along the beach, early morning,sifting the sand of debris and re-depositing the sand smoothly behind it......pretty cool.......(unless you're still under the blankets with you "friend" from the night before).........

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:50 am

It's up to the sound camps to find a way to kick them in the butt.

if they would let me off my short leash and choke collar i could absolutely do this...

Me + Cattle prod = tidy ravers.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:12 am

ygmir wrote: It'd be neat if someone had one of those "beach groomer" machines I saw in Ft. Lauderdale during spring break one year............it ran along the beach, early morning,sifting the sand of debris and re-depositing the sand smoothly behind it......pretty cool.......(unless you're still under the blankets with you "friend" from the night before).........

I like to call that the Playa Zamboni. If I had the money I'd totally make something like that.

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:58 am

correct me if i'm wrong about this ... i did not make it out to root society, but i did see opulent temple ... and didn't actually go in, because it was too crowded, and i am crowd claustrophobic...

but it looked to me like there was a good chance you wouldn't even notice moop falling off of your costume in that writhing mass ... and even if you did, it would probably be under a layer of dust by the time you bent down to retrieve it .... and if you did try to find it, you'd get trampled!

if you give the ravers moop bags, those bags might end up as moop ... ?

it's hard to control that big a crowd.

and yet, i'm very glad it's there.

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:48 am

BMORG needs to provide a trash service, dumpsters for participants on the way out and wind-proof trash/recycle cans along the main roads for starters.

Why should this be any different then BMORG providing porta-potties? Waste is waste. Add the price to the ticket.

JK

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:51 am

jkisha wrote:BMORG needs to provide a trash service, dumpsters for participants on the way out and wind-proof trash/recycle cans along the main roads for starters.

Why should this be any different then BMORG providing porta-potties? Waste is waste. Add the price to the ticket.

No! No! No! The minute that happens nobody takes their trash home. Huge piles of trash happen next to any full dumpster. I wouldn't be surprised if mooping went down. The message sent by the llc taking on garbage duties is that someone will clean up after the participants. As for adding it to the price--what's the fuel cost of having those trucks coming up empty and going back loaded?

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:50 am

Crypto's right on this one, for sure.

Even in a small camp of 15 or so, the garbage can get out of hand without an LNT person assigned to keep up on things. In our small group, we are so friggin' busy delivering on our gift to the city - the newspaper, that sometimes our own camp needs a daily walk through. Busy people can be careless too even if they DO care very much about LNT. At the end, we all take some garbage home but it can still be a bit disordered throughout the week.

If the whole city had to be catered to by the BMorg, all hell would break loose. It's human nature. And despite the fact that we are very special humans, we are still humans and are often distracted from doing the right thing (usually by shiny objects or pyrotechnics).

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:09 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
jkisha wrote:BMORG needs to provide a trash service, dumpsters for participants on the way out and wind-proof trash/recycle cans along the main roads for starters.

Why should this be any different then BMORG providing porta-potties? Waste is waste. Add the price to the ticket.
No! No! No! The minute that happens nobody takes their trash home. Huge piles of trash happen next to any full dumpster. I wouldn't be surprised if mooping went down. The message sent by the llc taking on garbage duties is that someone will clean up after the participants. As for adding it to the price--what's the fuel cost of having those trucks coming up empty and going back loaded?

That was the whole idea...enough dumpsters so that nobody has to take their own trash home. Line them up all along exodis.

Everybody gets the 'oh, fuck it's' after about wednesday. A conveniently placed trash can would help eleminate moop. And because BM would offer dumpsters and trash cans is no reason to make the leap that peopole would moop less. It's still leave no trace, this would just make LNT easier to do and it is logical to conclude that the easier it is the more people would do it. Also, don't you think that visible trash cans would convey the message that BMORG was serious aobut LNT?

I don't know, just saying. (I kind of like this line I stole from Ygmir)

JK

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:07 pm

I understand what you're saying jkisha but you haven't convinced me.

This would require a whole crew about the same size as the DPW to monitor the trash cans and the dumpsters 'cause people just put stuff beside them when they're full. That would all blow away and make a heck of a mess.

I want to go to BRC because its different from the cities and towns we live in. If you deal with your own waste you learn something important about how much waste we create in the West. This is a lesson I want to learn and I want to know that others are there partly for that same reason.

We had snow yesterday here. That's in Southern Ontario, not far from Toronto. When I was a kid, we looked forward to a white Christmas and sometimes we were lucky and got it. Now my granddaughters are having snow for Hallowe'en two years in a row.

What we are doing at BRC is realizing that we can make a difference. I don't want to take that away.

I haul garbage in a tightly secured cargo net all the way home to Ontario - 2500 plus miles - so I can deal with it here. I hate that every rest stop and every truck stop and the ditch all along 447 has our garbage. We have a lot to learn about what we are doing to planet Earth and I don't want to see that lesson stop now just when it's reaching a bunch of newbies each year.

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:30 pm

Deb Prothero wrote:I understand what you're saying jkisha but you haven't convinced me.

This would require a whole crew about the same size as the DPW to monitor the trash cans and the dumpsters 'cause people just put stuff beside them when they're full. That would all blow away and make a heck of a mess.

I want to go to BRC because its different from the cities and towns we live in. If you deal with your own waste you learn something important about how much waste we create in the West. This is a lesson I want to learn and I want to know that others are there partly for that same reason.

We had snow yesterday here. That's in Southern Ontario, not far from Toronto. When I was a kid, we looked forward to a white Christmas and sometimes we were lucky and got it. Now my granddaughters are having snow for Hallowe'en two years in a row.

What we are doing at BRC is realizing that we can make a difference. I don't want to take that away.

I haul garbage in a tightly secured cargo net all the way home to Ontario - 2500 plus miles - so I can deal with it here. I hate that every rest stop and every truck stop and the ditch all along 447 has our garbage. We have a lot to learn about what we are doing to planet Earth and I don't want to see that lesson stop now just when it's reaching a bunch of newbies each year.

First let me say that we do the same. Our camp generates about 30 full bags of garbage over the week period.

Second, I don't go to Burning Man to "learn lessons".

Third, I'm sure that people said the same things about having to build actual roads at burning man and not having the drive by shooting range too. Probably they didn't complain so much about the porta-potties. They (the powers that be) have decided that it is "OK" to do the above, as well as to sell ice and coffee.

Fourth, the event has grown to almost 50,000 people. I doubt they expected that, nor did they anticiapte the large amount of trash that this would generate...so like adding roads, porta-potties, and other rules and changes, this seems to be the next logical step.

Fifth, though BM is a LNT event, it is far from a green event. And frankly, I personally don't see where trash disposal containers would take anything away from the event. I'd much rather have a trash can available for me to toss the moop I see in passsing rather than put it into my pocket. I am sure this would incentive me and others to do more to moop than less.

We set up a trash container in our Yurt and we have several trash bags set up in our camp. Seems to help there, so I don't know why it would be different on the playa as a whole. Then from there, it would be nice to have a dumpster to dump those bags. Like I said, I'd pay more on the ticket for this service.

JK

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:03 pm

They have to have porta potties. Scroll down to page 13.
They don't "build actual roads" they delineate where roads are going to be within the city. I think having garbage cans works in your camp because you're a small group and know each other and you can easily watch persons not of the camp when they are in the camp.
I've seen garbage cans in semi-public places on playa and they are piled to 1.5 times the height of the receptacle. We are a garbage producing animal. We had best learn how to cope with that.

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:16 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:They have to have porta potties. Scroll down to page 13.
They don't "build actual roads" they delineate where roads are going to be within the city. I think having garbage cans works in your camp because you're a small group and know each other and you can easily watch persons not of the camp when they are in the camp.
I've seen garbage cans in semi-public places on playa and they are piled to 1.5 times the height of the receptacle. We are a garbage producing animal. We had best learn how to cope with that.

Not to argue minutia, but of course the garbage cans in semi-public places on the playa are piled high now...that just proves my point. People TRY and use the trash cans (read 'do the right thing'). So, wouldn't it follow if the cans were set-up everywhere and maintained and emptied regularly, they wouldn't be over-flowing? And that they would be used to help eliminate moop?

And regarding the roads...obviously they aren't paved, but they are maintained, and they do have speed limits enforced. This is certainly not part of the 'original vision' of anyone attending BM either, I would bet.

Isn't it the same principle/logic that cities put trash cans on corners and often more regularly spaced? It doesn't eliminate all the trash, but most people will use public waste recepticals if they are available. Those that won't use them would probably not be that concerned about where there moop falls anyway.

JK

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:29 pm

jkisha;

Having managed large events (40,000+ visitors), I can say that humanity is for the most part a huge disappointment when they attend a large event. No, they don't actually use the waste receptacles - they treat them like basketball hoops and don't give a flying f**k if they miss!

BRC and burners are different and special in that they actually make the individual effort to be responsible for their own waste.

Garbage receptacles will make it seem like home in the city where someone else is responsible. Care goes out the window as the see another shiny thing to go explore.

I am so excited by what I see at BRC with self reliance and responsibility that I don't want to see one iota of that transferred to a control group like the BMorg. We are connected by our mutual respect for the playa and dealing with our own trash. This is part of the soul of the city.

Besides the org has a hard enough time dealing responsibly and respectfully with DPW, how could they possibly manage another crew of similar size to deal with trash during the event? I don't think it's within their capacity. Nor do I want it to be.

That's my view though and I do see your side of the coin.

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:47 pm

well, there are always two (or more) sides to most coins. My opinion will never influence BMORG, and it is just an opinion.

I also don't see it as a 'responsibility' of BMORG any more than I see it as the responsibility of BMORG to empty the porta-potties. All they would be responsible for is selecting a vendor to supply and maintain the receptacles. Hey, now that I am thinking about it why don't they al

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:49 pm

well, there are always two (or more) sides to most coins. My opinion will never influence BMORG, and it is just an opinion.

I don't see it as a 'responsibility' of BMORG any more than I see it as the responsibility of BMORG to empty the porta-potties. All they would be responsible for is selecting a vendor to supply and maintain the receptacles.

JK

Elorrum · Post by **Elorrum** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:34 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
jkisha wrote:BMORG needs to provide a trash service, dumpsters for participants on the way out and wind-proof trash/recycle cans along the main roads for starters.

Why should this be any different then BMORG providing porta-potties? Waste is waste. Add the price to the ticket.
No! No! No! The minute that happens nobody takes their trash home. Huge piles of trash happen next to any full dumpster. I wouldn't be surprised if mooping went down. The message sent by the llc taking on garbage duties is that someone will clean up after the participants. As for adding it to the price--what's the fuel cost of having those trucks coming up empty and going back loaded?

Right on Cryptofishisht! As soon as any receptable for trash is available, personal responsibilitiy for garbage and litter starts eroding. Keeping it "carry it yourself" keeps litter in check the best I've seen. It also influences the reduction of trash brought in the first place.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:16 am

crypto is right i believe.

this year was the first year we provided cans in the public area.

we thought it would encourage people not to moopify the place. Obviously it did not work....what happened instead was people would BRING their shit and dump it on us knowing we would clean it up...

everyday, it wasn't just moop, it was whole camps garbage...some asswipes didn't carry a thing out, they just left it all in front of our fucking garbage truck.

did we take it out?

yes.

i LOADED the goddamn truck with Aydin.

we CRAWLED around in the shit, and SAW exactly what was foisted upon us and what was ours.

give them an inch.......and they bitch about size...(that was for you ygmir)

so in conclusion, NO NO NO seems to be yes. If you provide them with receptacles, sadly, a minority, a very apparent minority, will abuse them.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:24 am

nuthin worse than "size bitchin"...........

"if it scares you that much, I'll use it on someone else".........

I'd say fly paper around the perimeter, Simon...........and make everyone take off their shoes........

Oldguy · Post by **Oldguy** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:25 pm

Ok, I was wrong. Some people will not change. They will continue to spoil the Earth and despoil it for the rest of us. I intend to never let it hit the ground and will pick up what is left around me as much as I am able.

Simon, I was unaware of your efforts, my apologies. You are correct that public shameing does not affect the shameless, who have no conscience. I quess the most you can do is ban them from your area...I don't know how you might enforce that except by physical violence or inciting group action...It is a fine line.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:39 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:

so in conclusion, NO NO NO seems to be yes. If you provide them with receptacles, sadly, a minority, a very apparent minority, will abuse them.

I certainly can empathize with you on this. There will always be people that abuse any privlige.

However, as I have stated repeatedly in this thread, if BMORG provided the trash recipticals for everybody for all of their thrash, I still believe that would solve the majority of the trash problem, not only at the event, but would also go a long way toward preventing the mess we see along the highway during exodus.

This is more of a comment on trash, lnt and bmorg than on your or any other camp in particular.

JK