BURNERS SAY NO TO MEXICAN DRUGS

[cowboyangel]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101027/ap_ ... war_mexico

This is a truly insane war and it gets closer to us all the time. It is largely fueled by US buyers and the despicable major banks that help launder the money.

We can make a bold statement by denouncing this hateful drug battle and refusing to buy Mexican Drugs. Why not?

[Ugly Dougly]

We can make a bold statement by denouncing this hateful drug battle and refusing to buy Mexican Drugs. Why not?

Dreamer.

We'll have boots on the ground in theDF within a year, amigo.

[1durphul]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101027/ap_ ... war_mexico

This is a truly insane war and it gets closer to us all the time. It is largely fueled by US buyers and the despicable major banks that help launder the money.

We can make a bold statement by denouncing this hateful drug battle and refusing to buy Mexican Drugs. Why not?

Now let's imagine for a second that any of us have ever done drugs. No no no, try to imagine it, I know, it is difficult, but for the sake of reading this, just try to imagine that you or I or somebody on this board has done illegal drugs. Imaginary...


So.. in order to do these imaginary drugs you have to call a dealer. And your dealer is probably some imaginary shiesty person that you hope to god isn't selling you ajax to snort/shootup. But... you won't know until you try it. Now, how on earth do you think you're going to ask your imaginary dealer about your imaginary drug's origins and get an actual and honest answer? I mean, even in our collective imaginations, our dealer is seriously sketchy.

But, it's not a problem for me. I've never done any drugs ever. That would be wrong.

[Elderberry]

Yet another reason to vote YES on Prop 19 if you live in CA.

http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/s/CallForProp19

JK

[Box Burner]

Too late cowboy. Making drugs illegal in the US created the problem. The only fix would be to make them legal and inexpensive to purchase from gov run drug stores. Just like Liquor. Then be prepared to defend our borders. Be prepared to nuke Mexico city. And you would have to deport anyone who even looks hispanic.

[Isotopia]

Too late cowboy. Making drugs illegal in the US created the problem. The only fix would be to make them legal and inexpensive to purchase from gov run drug stores. Just like Liquor. Then be prepared to defend our borders. Be prepared to nuke Mexico city. And you would have to deport anyone who even looks hispanic.

That's such a simplistic and myopic view towards such an impassioned idea. You don't serve the topic justice by introducing yet another O'Reilley style sound byte into the mix.

Yet another reason to vote YES on Prop 19 if you live in CA.

I'm not really up for starting a raging yes/no political battle on this board at this time.

However, I will say that I don't think the impartial facts and data re. Prop 19 support your contention.

According to a recent Rand Corporation analysis (http://www.rand.org/pubs/occasional_papers/OP315/) there's a lot there to suggest that legalization of pot in CA would incrementally open the flood gates for Mexican drug cartels to bring their bloody business into the state.

As someone who is.... familiar with the growing and distribution process of medicinal marijuana I can say with certainty that Prop 19 is absolutely NOT what it appears. But then good citizen, read your own studies and reports and make your own informed decision rather than listen to my views.

As to Cowboy A's idea.... Good luck and all of that. Seriously, it is a noble idea but one not likely to catch on at this late juncture in the election process. Having said that I *do* think an opportunity has been missed by not challenging drug consumers more publicly about their choices and the direct consequences associated with those choices. For instance I think a compelling argument can be made that violent crime statistics in California related to growing and harvesting of marijuana are absolutely dwarfed in comparison to the insanity we're hearing about across the border. And yes, I believe as CA seems to suggest that people who do purchase drugs from sources across the border likely do have blood on their hands. The hard part here is figuring out how one goes about insuring that one's source of recreational (or medicinal) marijuana isn't tainted by murder, maiming and bloodshed.

For growers in California I think some sort of certification of adherence to an ethical set of standards might go a long way towards assuring customers that the product they buy isn't grown in the soil of the dead.

But that's just me.

[Elderberry]

Too late cowboy. Making drugs illegal in the US created the problem. The only fix would be to make them legal and inexpensive to purchase from gov run drug stores. Just like Liquor. Then be prepared to defend our borders. Be prepared to nuke Mexico city. And you would have to deport anyone who even looks hispanic.

That's such a simplistic and myopic view towards such an impassioned idea. You don't serve the topic justice by introducing yet another O'Reilley style sound byte into the mix.

Yet another reason to vote YES on Prop 19 if you live in CA.

I'm not really up for starting a raging yes/no political battle on this board at this time.

However, I will say that I don't think the impartial facts and data re. Prop 19 support your contention.

According to a recent Rand Corporation analysis (http://www.rand.org/pubs/occasional_papers/OP315/) there's a lot there to suggest that legalization of pot in CA would incrementally open the flood gates for Mexican drug cartels to bring their bloody business into the state.

As someone who is.... familiar with the growing and distribution process of medicinal marijuana I can say with certainty that Prop 19 is absolutely NOT what it appears. But then good citizen, read your own studies and reports and make your own informed decision rather than listen to my views.

As to Cowboy A's idea.... Good luck and all of that. Seriously, it is a noble idea but one not likely to catch on at this late juncture in the election process. Having said that I *do* think an opportunity has been missed by not challenging drug consumers more publicly about their choices and the direct consequences associated with those choices. For instance I think a compelling argument can be made that violent crime statistics in California related to growing and harvesting of marijuana are absolutely dwarfed in comparison to the insanity we're hearing about across the border. And yes, I believe as CA seems to suggest that people who do purchase drugs from sources across the border likely do have blood on their hands. The hard part here is figuring out how one goes about insuring that one's source of recreational (or medicinal) marijuana isn't tainted by murder, maiming and bloodshed.

For growers in California I think some sort of certification of adherence to an ethical set of standards might go a long way towards assuring customers that the product they buy isn't grown in the soil of the dead.

But that's just me.

OMG What an atypical post for you Iso. No snark!

Can I assume from your post that you are for legalization, but that proposition 19 is flawed in it's approach?

JK

[Mojojita]

Well said Iso, but I think the Rand study is correct only to the point where the California cities and counties are able to get their acts together and launch the sale/tax strategies that the legislation allows them. Until such time as they are able to decide if they want to provide for legal sales in their area and implement local legislation setting out the method for such sales, the cartels will make a lot of money. Since the initiative would make it immediately legal for any adult to have and use marijuana, there would be a major lag time until the locals have legal methods in place for sales - in short, you can have it but it will still be illegal to sell it until your local elected officials enact regulations regarding how it should be sold and taxed in any given area.

In the meantime, passing this legislation would have a major beneficial effect on many I know in the industry who are still fighting battles regarding medical cannabis and the policing thereof.

In this, the devil is certainly in the detail. As I read this initiative, each county or city may also have the ability to determine their own rules for the supply chain of what is grown and sold in their area, giving them the ability to ensure that only "certified" growers are able to market product legally.

[Isotopia]

Can I assume from your post that you are for legalization, but that proposition 19 is flawed in it's approach

Absolutely 19 is flawed. For myriad reasons.

For starters...

If passed certain city and county governments are likely to entertain proposals much like the one recently considered by the city of Oakland to allow large scale pot production facilities to grow (and be taxed) for the product they produce. The four proposed facilities to be allowed in Oakland will generate (by conservative estimates) an estimated 25% of all medicinal marijuana produced in the entire state of California.

Funding for such a collective undoubtedly involve deep - and I mean DEEP - pockets the likes of which will most likely represent large corporate investments. Profits then will go... guess where? Exactly. To those few deep pocket investors able to come up with the capital to assemble such facilities.

Now consider the fact that historically California pot production has been one of small, entrepreneurial growers situated primarily in the more rural environs of the state. Some grow big, others grow small but none grow to the point of actually producing enough to tilt the economic ecology which has allowed all involved to make a decent income - especially during these hard economic times for rural citizens. Make no mistake, a delicate, collaborative economic ecosystem does exist in the state with the majority of the growers producing quality product with hardly - if any - violence or criminal activity associated with their endeavor. Grow methods are primarily organic and the result is that everyone benefits insofar as getting a good deal on a product that is for all intents a boutique consumer item.

Imagine now that you are growing as a means to augment your income because your job as a carpenter, store employee or lumberjack in rural California has been shipped overseas or the recession has sent your or your past employer into bankruptcy. Your choices are limited but you've found your niche. You do OK but, you ain't being greedy, you grow good product and there damn sure isn't any blood on your hand because you and the buds decided to murder 15 teenagers at a birthday party in Juarez of shoot up a 12-step meeting because you WANT more addicts for your coke, meth and weed. So what happens when the relative easy price of your product plumets because the south of the border gang bangers move in with their shit weed and 9mm pistols or the 'corporate' growers get things going and decide that they can drive the price of weed down to the point of driving the local small guy out and STILL MAKE A PROFIT BASED ON THE HUGE VOLUME they're able to generate?

The little people who built the industry will inevitably be run into the dirt and the corporate profiteers who built their businesses on the backs of those who took the initial risks get ground into the dirt. The local grown industry will collapse and the few who survive will be shipping their income into their off shore bank accounts and the gruesome, soulless murderales will be bringing their blood-lust into the state.

That's my take and it reflects the opinions of a good number of people I know who'd rather not resort back to food stamps, welfare and subsidized housing in their rural counties because once again they've been dealt a shitty deal.

Your mileage (and opinion) may vary.

[Kinetik V]

Ok, I just skimmed the thread. I intend to take a look at the link Iso posted. All I do know is that here in Colorado this place is like the wild wild West. Dispensaries started showing up everywhere, and they were buying from anyone and everyone and life was good. But then the politicians stepped in and mucked things up. Permits, licenses, check this, jump through this hoop backwards while wearing a rubber chicken suit...seriously it seems like every week some legislator is coming up with new rules for the dispensaries. Long story short mom and pop growers are being forced out, we're seeing more and more "corporate farms" and when they can't supply the demand the porous border situation allows for the rest to come from Mexico and we get to see more insanity like the murder of David Hartley and the attempted murder of his wife Tiffany. This process is also accelerated by the clueless Denver city council restricting the amount of plants one can grow making it even more likely that the Mexican cartels phones will be ringing off the hook with more orders.....

In short legalization is not the great thing it's made out to be at least in it's current form. I honestly hope 19 goes down to defeat, scrap it and let's come up with something else. It's not just a Cali initiative...for those who ignore their American history as California goes so goes America...it's happened time and time again. 19 has the potential to change the rest of the country and based on what I'm seeing all around me...I don't like it at all.

[ygmir]

those are good points, KV, Iso........

I feel, so often, people take the "oh, it's at least a start, we can fix it later" attitude......
unfortunately, when have we seen legislators, "fix" anything?
or even try?

What's so wrong, with, writing good legislation, easily understood, easily implemented, and, actually necessary.

and, if a bill is flawed, even if the "idea" is good, vote it out and, get it done right.

GD legislators, state and fed, write crap, take credit for "caring" or whatever, and, then, it's no good, or, works the opposite of intention.......
and, we get buried under mountains of paper/laws........

[Box Burner]

Sorry Iso. My Post was over the top. But the cartels have a business because it is illegal here. They do violence there they will bring it here. It is in their interest for drugs not to be legal in the US.

[Eric]

While I am strongly opposed to the drug prohibition laws (anything that both the police & the gangs both want to keep has got to be flawed), I am very much opposed to 19, but for different reasons than Iso.

The main reason is that Holder has already said he will come down hard on CA if this passes. Regardless of what we pass, it is still (stupidly) illegal in the US, and the Powers That Be want it to remain so right now. If we legalize it, and they ignore that, it will be nothing but headaches for the Feds. This means there will be even more farm busts, more Fed actions, more Pot Dispensaries getting busted. The equilibrium we have will be wrecked.

More states need to legalize medical pot, then the process of legalizing pot for all can begin. I hate to advocate slow go on anything, but there are too many hands in the drug-money bin for it to happen quickly.

[ygmir]

While I am strongly opposed to the drug prohibition laws (anything that both the police & the gangs both want to keep has got to be flawed), I am very much opposed to 19, but for different reasons than Iso.

The main reason is that Holder has already said he will come down hard on CA if this passes. Regardless of what we pass, it is still (stupidly) illegal in the US, and the Powers That Be want it to remain so right now. If we legalize it, and they ignore that, it will be nothing but headaches for the Feds. This means there will be even more farm busts, more Fed actions, more Pot Dispensaries getting busted. The equilibrium we have will be wrecked.

More states need to legalize medical pot, then the process of legalizing pot for all can begin. I hate to advocate slow go on anything, but there are too many hands in the drug-money bin for it to happen quickly.

It'll be interesting, to see how Obama supporters, react to what Holder said.

were it a right wing prez, and, his AG, I bet they'd be screamin' "jack booted thugs"............

[Isotopia]

I am very much opposed to 19, but for different reasons than Iso.

Eric, I'm not sure your opinion reflects any differences we might have as much as I was trying to stay focused on a particular aspect of the law and its ramifications. The whole Obama/DOJ thing is probably another sub-paragraph to be discussed and one which I think we'd find ourselves on the same side of the fence.

[cowboyangel]

Wow.. great discussion. I have mixed feelings about 19. Iso's comments on the corporitization of weed production bears serious consideration.

I would like to see this problem attacked from the laundering side...which means the Justice Department is going to have go after the big banks, something they've shown a reluctance to do for financial fraud in the derivative and mortgage messes. My idea is for the leadership of BM-Black Rock to come out and denounce the Mexican Drug wars and the death they export here in the form of their drugs. This would be very big and start people thinking about what they are really pumping into their bodies and what they really want their dollars to support. Big movements sometimes start with small measures.

[ygmir]

I can't see denouncing Mexican drug wars, etc......as having any effect.

People don't care.
Harsh, but, it's true.
if they want weed, coca, whatever, it will matter not, where it comes from, only who's cheapest and where can it be had.

Especially (IMHO) in the Burner culture, I'd think most are of average or above intellect, and, as such, already know about all that.
Sort of like putting the warning on cigarettes.
If, by now, someone does not know they are "bad", well, how can a warning label on a pack matter?

Just strokin' IMHO.

[Eric]

It'll be interesting, to see how Obama supporters, react to what Holder said.

were it a right wing prez, and, his AG, I bet they'd be screamin' "jack booted thugs"............

I'm an Obama supporter. I'm not amused, to say the least, but the way the current laws are written there is a very entrenched interest by law enforcement to keep them the same (the busting department in many cases gets a direct cut from the sale of confiscated items from "dealers", which is anyone who has broken up their pot into two baggies so they know which is the stronger one).

I'm still a staunch progressive, and the idea that I would ever want to elect someone who wants to dismantle the goverment is ridiculous. Its amazing how many people get pissed about the thought of losing their Social Security, Medicaid, Veterans Benefits, police services, fire departments, schools, hospitals etc are voting for the Teapublicans who want to blatantly get rid of some of those & remove the tax base for others. Obama's not perfect, nobody is, but he's gotten more progressive legislation passed than anyone since Johnson, all with the republicans fighting tooth & nail to destroy his Presidency & damn the country if it goes down too. Any party that will vote against legislation they originally proposed because they don't like the President is morally and politically bankrupt.

Iso- I just meant that the threat of corporate farming isn't what made the decision for me, the way 19 is written (too many vague areas) and the threat of Federal action is what finally brought me down as a "no". I have friends in the field, so to speak, as well. Most of them are pro, but a couple are against it as well.

[FIGJAM]

Weed can grow anywhere.

If they could just keep it simple and legelize personal use cultivation it would end 90% of all the problems being discussed here.

[ygmir]

oh yes, the republicans are, to me, just as embarrassing.......

I've checked out of the "parties" as such.
Call me a cynic, but, I just don't think when the smoke clears, either one can or will do the right thing.
They're all in it for power/money. IMHO.

It just interests me, how, one side will accept, what they decry from the "other side", as long as it's "their guy" in charge.

I see it on both sides of the isle.

And, to say one side is more "partisan" than the other, to me, is just incorrect.

They've gotten so polarized.
dang.

[Isotopia]

I would like to see this problem attacked from the laundering side...

A noble idea but we're talking about a swamp as far as diverting anything resembling a real, concerted effort Cowboy.

In my heart of hearts this represents a classic opportunity where argument - the very simple argument - might be made that there are consequences to people's choices.

Framing them honestly and simplistically is the best and quickest step to getting the issue on the radar. Nothing more. Well, not at first anyway.

Sometimes a well reasoned argument can go a very, long way in getting a point across.

Never forget that from small flames do large fires grow.

BTW, thanks for the thread. I think you've brought up a few very worthy points to consider.

[Eric]

Don't get me wrong- I'm a third party man. I've never been a Democrat, and was only a Republican to vote against a nut-job in the primaries in Arizona in the 80's. My political hero's include both Goldwater and Clinton and I don't have a problem with that.

However, the Democrats in the minority did work with Bush on many things I wish they hadn't- the Patriot Act, No Child Educated (er, "Left Behind"), the wars, the tax cuts..... the current Republicans have voted "no" on things they supported under Bush, there is a definite difference. They're even on record strongly supporting things like the stimulus under Bush, then decrying it under Obama (while requesting funds for their own states, because it actually works). Nasty.

Neither party deserves the amount of power they now have, neither will give it up. I don't think it will ever change unless we can get proportional voting like the rest of the democratic world. Small parties that the big parties need to form alliances with to form governments. Sometimes creates messes (like in Italy), but usually gets ideas on the table that the big parties would like to ignore- both from the left & the right.

This has been the most civil political thread ever to happen on ePlaya. That, or I have the right people plonked.

[gyre]

I have always been baffled that the government would hand over massive amounts of power to criminals by prohibiting things that are in common use.

And I don't buy blaming users for the crimes committed for power and wealth, by gangs playing by the rules the government sets.
Drug use, gambling, etc are paper crimes.

Drugs have no huge value.
Only making things difficult to obtain adds artificial value.
This is so well known that creating a black market is an established method for weakening a government.

The argument of users stopping is the heart of the issue.
The market always decides what is reasonable.

I would rather see a thousand junkies die than have one kill someone I care about, in desperation to obtain drugs we have decided to make valuable.

If people are convinced to not purchase, the market will fail.
If they want to buy, the price goes up and so does supply.
Not a surprise.

There are a number of interesting films about the fate of bootleggers after the alcohol prohibition ended.

The black market can carry anything else with it, including terrorism.

When they banned open sales of pseudophedrine here, they all bragged.
Meth use went down for a month.
Then availability went up.
WAY UP.
Within six months a ship had been stopped full of liquid concentrated pseudophedrine. (In excess of the entire legal national supply!)
But only one ship.
The rest got through.
Yet I still can't buy a fucking sudafed when I need it.
Who's being fooled by this horseshit?


The mexican drug war is already here.
And it may force the issue.
If you don't believe it's different down there, I can provide links.
We have more than enough issues without bringing in that approach to violence.

The choice is dead simple.
Hand over wealth and power to criminals.
Or not.

[oneeyeddick]

Weed is not a Drug.

just sayin'

and even if it was, who in the fuck smokes mexican weed anymore?

[oneeyeddick]

Oh yeah...and then there is this that just happened.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2 ... rters.html

[Sail Man]

Weed is not a Drug.

just sayin'

and even if it was, who in the fuck smokes mexican weed anymore?

+420

Waaayyyy back in HS we referred to it as ditch weed. We preferred Thai stick, and also the occasional Blond Lebanese Hash, mmmmmmm

As far as now, I'll take the 5th Your Honor

[joel the ornery]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101027/ap_ ... war_mexico

This is a truly insane war and it gets closer to us all the time. It is largely fueled by US buyers and the despicable major banks that help launder the money.

We can make a bold statement by denouncing this hateful drug battle and refusing to buy Mexican Drugs. Why not?

why do you hate america?

[cowboyangel]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101027/ap_ ... war_mexico

This is a truly insane war and it gets closer to us all the time. It is largely fueled by US buyers and the despicable major banks that help launder the money.

We can make a bold statement by denouncing this hateful drug battle and refusing to buy Mexican Drugs. Why not?

why do you hate america?

I love you that's for sure! And you're part of America, therefore, I must love America too. Hey bowl head, my Giants are beating up the best teams in baseball....if you really loved America, then you'd love America's favorite sport too!

[cowboyangel]

This whole problem became very real to me when I temporarily moved to Marfa Texas a little over a year ago. I'm an avid outdoor person. Love to backpack and mountain climb. Every trip I made near the border resulted in dogs jumping all over my truck and legendary questioning from Border Patrol. The former head sheriff of Marfa was a guy on the take and responsible for helping to funnel tons of weed and shit across the border. The cartels were paying him the big bucks. Ranger, Joaquin Jackson writes about this in his One Ranger series. It's what prompted me to buy firearms. The border towns are dangerous and getting more so. Hiking in the Big Bend is dangerous too. The burreros carry backpacks laden with drugs through the harsh desert. People disappear. That's why I ended up supporting concealed carry in some national parks. Burning Man has become an international phenomenon. If it were to simply condemn the drug violence in Mexico, I believe that that would go a long way. We care about each other, share, help each other, it seems natural to want to end this terrible drug violence that is connected to us in some ways.

[oneeyeddick]

if you really loved America, then you'd love America's favorite sport too!

You mean Nascar?

Check the stats.