Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by mdmf007 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:33 pm

gyre wrote:Don't see anything close to the tires to burn that hot.
Always possible, i just don't usually see tires catch without a lot of fuel around them.
Like diesel, they probably burn well after they get going.
It just looks like a set fire, but no photos of the start.

Those tires look very fully engulfed, no pattern to the fire there, no hot spots at the top.
Just one picture though.

Did you see signs of a lot of fuel for the fire?
Dragging brakes will do it.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by gyre » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:40 pm

That's true.

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Elderberry » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:56 pm

FIGJAM wrote:I don't care if it pleases everybody, as long as it pleases me! :twisted:
Exactly. :coffee:
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by DrYes » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:02 pm

alt12 wrote: Would make "Radical Self Reliance" not such a laughing stock of a fake principle.
It's a laughing stock because the idea of being radically self-reliant in the middle of an intentional community is misplaced. Communities form -precisely- so that people don't have to be 100% self-reliant. I've said it before, but the principle should be, "Be self-reliant enough not to cause your neighbors undue hassle." (Because they WILL take care of you, and they shouldn't have to take care of you just because you didn't prepare.) If you want to be self-reliant beyond that, a city full of helpful people is kind of a dumb place to make a stand on the issue. Myself, I like helping my neighbors provided it doesn't inconvenience me too much. Brings me closer to the community around me. I don't look down on someone because he forgot a hammer and needs to borrow one from me.

Spending a week in the forest with nothing but a knife - that's radical self-reliance. Burning Man is a vacation in the desert, surrounded by a city full of people generally willing to help you, supported by paid medical staff and fairly elaborate infrastructure. Hardly a place to get all uppity about being "radically self-reliant."

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:33 am

DrYes wrote:
alt12 wrote: Would make "Radical Self Reliance" not such a laughing stock of a fake principle.
It's a laughing stock because the idea of being radically self-reliant in the middle of an intentional community is misplaced. Communities form -precisely- so that people don't have to be 100% self-reliant. I've said it before, but the principle should be, "Be self-reliant enough not to cause your neighbors undue hassle." (Because they WILL take care of you, and they shouldn't have to take care of you just because you didn't prepare.) If you want to be self-reliant beyond that, a city full of helpful people is kind of a dumb place to make a stand on the issue. Myself, I like helping my neighbors provided it doesn't inconvenience me too much. Brings me closer to the community around me. I don't look down on someone because he forgot a hammer and needs to borrow one from me.

Spending a week in the forest with nothing but a knife - that's radical self-reliance. Burning Man is a vacation in the desert, surrounded by a city full of people generally willing to help you, supported by paid medical staff and fairly elaborate infrastructure. Hardly a place to get all uppity about being "radically self-reliant."

Forgive me for speaking up as a virgin still, but I think the idea behind "radical self reliance" is to plan on being 100% self reliant and then the community is there when you -can't- be 100% self reliant, not so you can plan on being only 50% self reliant...

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:36 am

DrYes wrote:
alt12 wrote:

supported by paid medical staff and fairly elaborate infrastructure.


legal requirements =/= crutches for the self reliant

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Sundial » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:34 am

Okay. So lets say I exchange a few emails with the leader of an established camp, and drop sixty bucks for a spot in their camp. They provide a kitchen area, a place to hang a solar shower, a place to dump grey water, and maybe a communal dome. I have to help build and dismantle some or all of these structures. Anything else has to be brought by me.

Does this fit the definition of plug n' play, or can this be done with a reasonably clean conscience?
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by ygmir » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:41 am

Schtev wrote:Okay. So lets say I exchange a few emails with the leader of an established camp, and drop sixty bucks for a spot in their camp. They provide a kitchen area, a place to hang a solar shower, a place to dump grey water, and maybe a communal dome. I have to help build and dismantle some or all of these structures. Anything else has to be brought by me.

Does this fit the definition of plug n' play, or can this be done with a reasonably clean conscience?

no matter how you Burn, you should have a clear conscience!!

It's YOUR BURN........what makes you happy, and does not directly impair anyone else, is exactly how you should do it.

you need explain, to no one!

screw judgement and self absorbed "Burnier than thou, narcissistic, judgmental, gallery members" with their self proclaimed sacrosanct opinions and instructions as to how to "do it right".

carry on!!
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Sundial » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:43 am

A good philosophy. But I asked. So I do want to know what other people think. =p
ygmir wrote:
Schtev wrote:Okay. So lets say I exchange a few emails with the leader of an established camp, and drop sixty bucks for a spot in their camp. They provide a kitchen area, a place to hang a solar shower, a place to dump grey water, and maybe a communal dome. I have to help build and dismantle some or all of these structures. Anything else has to be brought by me.

Does this fit the definition of plug n' play, or can this be done with a reasonably clean conscience?

no matter how you Burn, you should have a clear conscience!!

It's YOUR BURN........what makes you happy, and does not directly impair anyone else, is exactly how you should do it.

you need explain, to no one!

screw judgement and self absorbed "Burnier than thou, narcissistic, judgmental, gallery members" with their self proclaimed sacrosanct opinions and instructions as to how to "do it right".

carry on!!
"I will not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. I will face my fear. I will let it pass through me. Where the fear has gone, there shall be nothing. Only I will remain."

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by gyre » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:08 am

Schtev wrote: Does this fit the definition of plug n' play, or can this be done with a reasonably clean conscience?
Pnp is a confusing term, but that would not be a concierge camp.
Figure $500 to tens of thousands for one.
And up.
And, you can spend a lot on a project and not be in such a camp.

Also, some people in concierge camps are serious burners, using them for convenience only.
Amenities vary as widely as other camps.

Obviously they may attract the especially clueless.
This has been a problem for some time, in general, anyway.
To quote Joy Orabella, referring to big influxes quite some time ago,

"It's up to all of us to educate the new people, to bring them into burning man."

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by otakup0pe » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:40 am

CornMan wrote:According to all the debate in the past few weeks/months, it is the consensus that the majority of the people here are in favor of the Plug and Play industry and apparently agree that privileges such as the vendor passes to get to get their RVs and other infrastructure onto the festival grounds early is a good thing and not to be complained about or discussed any further.
Pretty sure you are confusing "are in favor of" with "tolerate".

Or was that sarcasm ? I can never tell when people don't use emoticons.

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by gyre » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:43 am

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Post by FIGJAM » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:02 am

FIGJAM wrote:I,ve read through the entire thread and what I don,t see is a consice, specific definition of what a plug and play camp is.

Some examples I came up with were.....

Form 1. Larry invited me to TTITD for the price of a ticket.

I read a lot, prepared as I saw fit, and when I got there, there were streets so I would'nt get lost or need a gps to find my camp.

There were jots so I did'nt have to deal with my shit.

There were water trucks to keep the dust down, and, and, and!!!

That sounds like plug and play on a scale most of us accept.

Form 2. Maybe I work 80hrs. a week to run my firm, so I don't have the time or energy to do prep for the burn, but I do have an idea for an MV no dust hoover craft that launches 1 mile clouds of rainbow confetti that evaporates before it hits the ground.

So I pay someone to build it and pay for them to bring it and the RV and, and, and, so I can fly in cause I don't have any other way to burn.

Different, but still plug and play.

Form 3. Steven Hawking whats to experience Burning Man!

Has to be plug and play in some form.

Form 4. All theme camps and villages!

They all bring stuff to the playa that I can't, and make the burn what it is. (thanks doc pyro and all the rest)

I guess this would be part of form 1.

Form 5. On a whim, I fly into BM with just the clothes on my back and $3K in my pocket, then expect to buy my Burn!!! Plug and play baby!!!

ALL are going to be "A Burning Man experience".

We all have our own, and they are unique to each of us.

It becomes a matter of degrees, and without a precise definition, I don't know where to draw the line.

Have vouchers for Ice and services, and if you flash cash anywhere, you are ejected?

I don't know!!!!!!!!!! :cry:

So can we define exactly what "Plug and Play" is before we get too bogged down in this discussion?

I see a lot of good points being brought up, but let's find out exactly what we're talking about!
Yup!

Got to bogged down in this discussion. :roll:
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by lemur » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:18 am

definition of plug and play camp:
Subpart 2932—Special Recreation Permits for Commercial Use, Competitive Events, Organized Groups, and Recreation Use in Special Areas

§ 2932.5 Definitions.
Actual expenses means money spent directly on the permitted activity. These may include costs of such items as food, rental of group equipment, transportation, and permit or use fees. Actual expenses do not include the rental or purchase of personal equipment, amortization of equipment, salaries or other payments to participants, bonding costs, or profit.

Commercial use means recreational use of the public lands and related waters for business or financial gain.

(1) The activity, service, or use is commercial if—
(i) Any person, group, or organization makes or attempts to make a profit, receive money, amortize equipment, or obtain goods or services, as compensation from participants in recreational activities occurring on public lands led, sponsored, or organized
by that person, group, or organization;

(ii) Anyone collects a fee or receives other compensation that is not strictly a sharing of actual expenses, or exceeds actual expenses, incurred for the purposes of the activity, service, or use;

(iii) There is paid public advertising to seek participants; or

(iv) Participants pay for a duty of care or an expectation of safety.

(2) Profit-making organizations and organizations seeking to make a profit are automatically classified as commercial, even if that part of their activity covered by the permit is not profit-making or the business as a whole is not profitable.

(3) Use of the public lands by scientific, educational, and therapeutic institutions or non-profit organizations is commercial and subject to a permit requirement when it meets any of the threshold criteria in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this definition. The non-profit status of any group or organization does not alone determine that an event or activity arranged by such a group or
organization is noncommercial.

Special area means:
(1) An area officially designated by statute, or by Presidential or Secretarial order;

(2) An area for which BLM determines that the resources require special management and control measures for their protection; or

(3) An area covered by joint agreement between BLM and a State under Title II of the Sikes Act (16 U.S.C. 670a et seq.)

Vending means the sale of goods or services, not from a permanent structure, associated with recreation on the public lands or related waters, such as food, beverages, clothing, firewood, souvenirs, photographs or film (video or still), or equipment repairs.

§ 2932.10 When you need Special Recreation Permits.

§ 2932.11 When do I need a Special Recreation Permit?
(a) Except as provided in §2932.12, you must obtain a Special Recreation Permit for:
(1) Commercial use, including vending associated with recreational use
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Eric » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:01 pm

ygmir wrote:screw judgement and self absorbed "Burnier than thou, narcissistic, judgmental, gallery members" with their self proclaimed sacrosanct opinions and instructions as to how to "do it right".

carry on!!
Schtev, this is the answer you're looking for. There is no "right", you are fine.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Bless » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:01 am

I saw this video a while ago while browsing on YouTube and wanted to share it but couldn't find it again. Luckily, the good folks at burners.me posted it recently.

The quintessential plug'n'play experience?

[media]
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Mia » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:17 am

As someone who has never been but hopes to go this year, all I keep hearing about is how tickets (which cost a lot in my world) are in short supply, how is it that these super de duper camps can lock in all these tickets?

From an outsider looking in it seems like BM is a great idea that has gone sideways.

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:50 am

That vid was from 2012 and there were tickets everywhere even though they sold out the first day due to panic buying.

Last year they sold out.

A month or so before the event somebody needed 2 tickets.

It took me about 45 minutes to score 2 tickets for under face value! 8)
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Mia » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:35 am

So you're the ticket whisperer :D

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by trilobyte » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:58 am

Yeah, that video (as well as most of the discussion in this thread) are from the 2012 event, which had a lot of unique challenges. It was also the first year that Burning Man started raising the subject of turnkey camps publicly. I think that the drama caused by the scarcity of tickets leading up to the event led people to do some serious witch hunting, and the perceived threats caused by turnkey camps was blown way out of proportion.

I think that the 'new normal' (well, since July 2011) is that there will always be more demand than supply for tickets, but one thing that's remained pretty constant is one of ePlaya's mantra... Those who plan...burn. There will be a lot of talk on that subject in the days, weeks, and months ahead over in the Tickets Discussion board, no need to get into the details of that here.

I think it was a good idea to start asking the questions and for people to start thinking about, and I think it's something for both camp leaders to consider when planning their camps and campers to consider when choosing where they want to camp. I also think Burning Man's turnkey camping guidelines was a good call.

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Eric » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:19 pm

Mia wrote:From an outsider looking in it seems like BM is a great idea that has gone sideways.
As an outsider looking in, but who's never actually seen the Real Thing, just internet video's & pictures, how do you know (a) what the "great idea" is, and (b) that it's "gone sideways"? You can ask anybody who's ever attended if a video can capture even a fragment of the event, and I will guarantee you 99%+ will say "no". All video's (and pictures) capture is a highly edited slice of one persons view of the event. The video just posted looks nothing like my Burn, so I'm not sure how the entire event has gone "sideways" just because some people Burned differently than others - just like at every Burn.

Burning Man is a different event to every single person who attends it, and can be a different event to a single person depending on the hour of the day, the day of the week, and who they are with. There is no "great idea", other than a whole bunch of people and art camping in the middle of nowhere, and everyone who spews the "lost it's way" and "gone sideways" nonsense tends to either be someone who hasn't ever been, or is someone who doesn't like the way it's changed and grown - but evolution, in-and-of itself isn't bad, it's just change. How you handle that change makes all the difference.

I do have a question for you - if you haven't ever been to the event & think it's "gone sideways", why are you planning on attending this year? What is it about this no-longer-as-cool-as-it-was thing that makes you want to spend thousands of dollars to live in the heat, covered in talcum-powder like dust, with non-stop noise and commotion? I'm honestly interested.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Mia » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:17 pm

Well Eric, what attracted me to Burning Man is not having to deal with the constant hum of the every day world. I'm really just looking for off the gird and not dealing with the constant grind because I tell ya I have a lot on my shoulders and I really need to hit the pause button on life for a second. I think this started out with the thought that people should rely on themselves and be respectful of others and the land. But what it sort of looks like is that if mommy and daddy have enough money they can buy you dubstep experience that will blow your mind. And no, I have not been there but this topic was all about turnkey camping and then a description of what that meant with supporting videos.
So you're right, I better think before I spend my hard earned money.

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by VultureChow » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:30 pm

Mia,

Black Rock City is a city of 60,000 people. There are people camping in a backpacking tent, and people in a $120k RV. The dust coats us all, and on the open playa, you don't know if the person huddled next to you in a dust storm is a hedge fund manager or a fry cook.

Money can buy you some luxuries, but so can ingenuity and hard work. The threads here are filled with inexpensive ways to make your burn more comfortable.

Videos and pictures are NOT Burning Man. If we went by that, then you would assume that it is all 23 year old hard bodies in hot pants and pasties. That was my fear my first year. It was unfounded.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Eric » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:48 pm

Mia wrote:I think this started out with the thought that people should rely on themselves and be respectful of others and the land.
Burning Man started out with a group of people burning an effigy on a beach in SF, and having a party around it. Once that got too big & the city banned it, the event moved to the playa. As it's grown, the rules & culture around it have grown as well, but most of the things that look like they've been part of it forever (like the 10 Principles, or the Temple, or even the art and art-cars) are later additions. The only part that is original is people watching an effigy of a man go up in flames.

There are as many types of Burners, and ways to Burn, as there are people attending. Everything from very blissed-out hippie Burners to the "fuck-yer-Burn" hardcore contingent, and everything in-between. You've got full-on religious ceremonies, AA meetings, debauched raves, people sleeping in hammocks under a shade structure with no tent & people living it up in RVs with a support staff. All of them are Burning correctly, because they are Burning the way they want to.

Spend a lot of time on here poking around threads before buying a ticket (which means soon, because once they finally announce and go on sale they will probably sell quickly, if last year is any indication), see if you want to experience it in all it's complexity. If you're going looking for something specific ("I'm really just looking for off the gird and not dealing with the constant grind") you may be disappointed; the Burn tends to work best if you just want to go to see what the hell it is and have as few expectations as humanly possible. The more you expect out of it, the more you will be disappointed.

If you want to really get in-depth on the history of the event, and probably the best sense of it's swirling insanity that you can get without actually going, try "The Burning Book". I highly recommend it.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:12 pm

Eric wrote:[If you're going looking for something specific ("I'm really just looking for off the gird and not dealing with the constant grind") you may be disappointed;
And there are plenty of vacations that do offer that particular option, possibly with less trouble. No need to go to the burn for that.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Mia » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:06 am

I didn't really say I was going there for something specific except to get away from my daily grind which I think i'll be successful at unless somehow my kids pop up on the playa telling me that they need to buy their books for next semester or I have to sit through yet another IEP meeting. If one of those things happens out there I might be really let down. Other than that I think what I'm in for is being dirty, tired and hot (which on this 2 degree day sounds fucking amazing).

I have been doing a lot of reading on this board, on reddit on other boards on tumblr, looking on pinterest, on facebook, I plan to go to a regional event. I have been doing A LOT of reading because i'm not 20 and I know all too well that life isn't always what it seems.

I appreciate all your words, you have been there and I have not so I appreciate your experience and if tickets go on sale and I am fortunate enough to grab one then awesome but if it's not my time then hey it's not my time. I suspect that the when the Jack Rabbit speaks today we will know when that sale will happen.

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by AntiM » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:56 am

Even if you don't snag a ticket in the main sale, there are other ways. STEP program, OMG sale, and plenty of third party sales as people realize they can;t go.

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Savannah » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:38 pm

DrYes wrote:Spending a week in the forest with nothing but a knife - that's radical self-reliance. Burning Man is a vacation in the desert, surrounded by a city full of people generally willing to help you, supported by paid medical staff and fairly elaborate infrastructure. Hardly a place to get all uppity about being "radically self-reliant."
Belated and extremely minor nitpicking:

The medical staff at Center Camp are paid.

The MDs, RNs, Firefighters, Paramedics, EMTs (etc) at Station 3 and Station 9 are Burner volunteers.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:48 pm

Savannah wrote:
DrYes wrote:Spending a week in the forest with nothing but a knife - that's radical self-reliance. Burning Man is a vacation in the desert, surrounded by a city full of people generally willing to help you, supported by paid medical staff and fairly elaborate infrastructure. Hardly a place to get all uppity about being "radically self-reliant."
Belated and extremely minor nitpicking:

The medical staff at Center Camp are paid.

The MDs, RNs, Firefighters, Paramedics, EMTs (etc) at Station 3 and Station 9 are Burner volunteers.
True. Often at significant cost to themselves. And with sincere dedication to the event.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Post by Eric » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:58 pm

Mia wrote:I have been doing a lot of reading on this board, on reddit on other boards on tumblr, looking on pinterest, on facebook, I plan to go to a regional event. I have been doing A LOT of reading because i'm not 20 and I know all too well that life isn't always what it seems.
Perfect - you're doing your research, and you've been studying up. Just remember that everything you're looking at is a very tiny slice of someone else's experience, usually edited in the best way possible - the actual event is 360° immersive, with sights and sounds coming at you from every direction, all day and all night, and you're not going to enjoy some of those sights and sounds (and you'll fall in love with others).

If you surround yourself with video monitors, get drunk, and play every video on those monitors at full blast at the same time, while having someone use a fan to blow talcum powder at you, you still aren't getting the real feeling of being there, but cleaning up the mess might give you a good idea of what it's like to break-down camp, especially if you can make it over 90° while you do it. :lol:
It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

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