Lag screws vs everything else...

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:32 pm

I've switched to mule tape because it's cheap and the 3/4" has a 2500 pound breaking strength.

Made for tension!!! 8)
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Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:36 pm

Token wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:38 am
Ooh, now I’m curious how much flex that thing is gonna have being lots of PVC.

If I were responsible for keeping that upright for 9 days, I would try to tie and strap things such that all horizontal members have tension on them and are pulling away, while the shade cloth is holding things together and compressing them.
The horizontal pipes are intended to handle both compression and tensile loading, and have been fine the last couple years even without the stiff reinforcement these wire ropes provide. Although after last year particularly, the heat was high enough that I notice a small degree of bending which I didn’t expect to set in after so few uses. It is a concern for buckling down the road so I may bother to bend them the other way or revise the design slightly.

The tarps I have rather passively hang on a rope that circles an upper part of the assembly which is not attached in the previous picture; wasn’t necessary since I just wanted to test the wire rope. They aren’t intended to resist wind so really the degree I’m reinforcing the structure is less about standing up to that and more about being able to handle inebriated Burners (myself included) stumbling into it.
Last edited by Kenshiro on Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:07 pm

[errant attempt to edit; ignore]

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Token
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Token » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:47 pm

Kenshiro wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:36 pm

... being able to handle inebriated Burners (myself included) stumbling into it.
Ha! I’ll drink to that!

BTW, them unions - pretty darn slick!

Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:25 am

Token wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:47 pm
Kenshiro wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:36 pm

... being able to handle inebriated Burners (myself included) stumbling into it.
Ha! I’ll drink to that!

BTW, them unions - pretty darn slick!
Why thank you, good sir!

Although to be perfectly honest, if I were doing this one again, I’d skip the unions for a number of reasons. Most significant of which is they aren’t anywhere near as strong as just telescoping off-sized tubes into each other. Primary problem is if they get subjected to too high of a bending load, their threads can be snapped into an offset and they become horrendously difficult (and MOOPy) to unscrew. Thankfully now with these wire ropes having such a high tensile rigidity, the loading on the unions is reduced to just tension/compression, and they’re going to have more than enough to handle the expected potential loads. So besides making build-up and break-down an even more brainless process than before, they’re helping to keep the loads experienced by the design closer to what was originally intended.

Guard Dawg
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Guard Dawg » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:14 pm

Everyone's financial resources very.

Cylinders fabricated out of wire fencing and covered with shade cloth and/or tarps blue on one side silver on the other make a wind-proof desert sleeping and a lounging yurt.

Each secured by tee stakes. Down side; stake pounder is heavy and require tee-post removal jack. Both purchased at Harbor freight. Cylinders can be wrapped with additional layers of sun cloth to provide additional protection. Secure shade cloth to wire mash cylinder with elastic bungee cord's.

I have tested this concept in the high winds of the Mojave desert.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-4- ... /205960859
Be who you are, say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter won't mind—Dr. Suess

Guard Dawg
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Guard Dawg » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:20 pm

Not sure of the extent of the bug problem but mosquito netting could be used when conditions warrant, simply roll up the sunshade and roll down the mosquito netting. It also provides some security and being that I'm territorial I like that.
Be who you are, say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter won't mind—Dr. Suess

maladroit
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:00 pm

After-burn report!

Summary: I packed light this year and didn't want to bring a generator and impact wrench, so I tried a manual solution.

I used an extra-long 1/2" x 30" socket extension: really great. Made it easy to screw in the lags without hunching over each one. I'd consider using it with the impact wrench if it was impact rated and I knew it wouldn't explode. I capped this with a 12" sliding T handle. This was easy to use...

...actually, a bit TOO easy. I was putting in 3/8" x 14" lags, and as predicted could not get purchase into the playa without pounding them about 2/3 of the way in. This seemed about right given my previous several years using a powered impact driver. But once the lags bit in, they spun into the playa too easily and it was just kind of boring using the T-handle to do it, as there's no way to get a bunch of speed out of it. I will definitely be replacing the T-handle with a speed crank handle instead.

Overall impression: Even with the slower install and removal, it was SO nice to not have to worry about transporting the generator and fuel, worry about the impact driver failing, etc. It was also nice to not worry about rebar or smooth stakes pulling out of the playa or creating a cut hazard, and nice to only pound lags through the fluffy top crust and not have to pound rebar into the hard stuff. I would willingly leave an impact driver at home for an expected 20 lag screws or fewer.

Basically the experience seemed easier than my previous powered lag screw usage, with all of the same benefits. I'd recommend a manual solution for anyone not installing large numbers of lag screws.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:07 pm

Regarding chain links...that's what I use. It was the easiest thing in the world and I made bin of them, more than I'll need. I would just clamp a link sideways in a vise, then with a few strokes of a sharp hacksaw make a cut through one side of the link. Then with pliers twist the link along the axis of the uncut side. Super easy to do and leave a gap large enough to pull out the attached links.

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danibel
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by danibel » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:52 pm

maladroit wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:07 pm
Regarding chain links...that's what I use. It was the easiest thing in the world and I made bin of them, more than I'll need. I would just clamp a link sideways in a vise, then with a few strokes of a sharp hacksaw make a cut through one side of the link. Then with pliers twist the link along the axis of the uncut side. Super easy to do and leave a gap large enough to pull out the attached links.
Wish I had known where you were camped. I got to the playa with all my mule tape and had to redo all the mule tape loops for the lags because the square knots just made me SUPER nervous. I was blessed to have a rock climber in camp and we sat in the frontage on Saturday and made all new loops with some double knot thing that I felt comfortable with. I had brought 8 ratchet straps and used the rebar in the legs (as the shade was designed for) and then used two lags and loops with ratchets on the corners. I felt very secure with this anchoring.

If I had the chain links, I might have felt okay not using the rebar in the legs, and mule tape straps up over the fittings, but I didn't have those. It's a goal before my next burn to figure out how to secure this BRH shade with all lags and no rebar.

I did end up helping our virgins with lags for their Kodiak palace, so that was good.
In dust we trust.

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danibel
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by danibel » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:00 pm

FIGJAM wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:32 pm
I've switched to mule tape because it's cheap and the 3/4" has a 2500 pound breaking strength.

Made for tension!!! 8)
Figjam. Where were you camped this year? I should have gone to find you. I ended up using ratchet straps because the mule tape and knots scared me.
In dust we trust.

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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Ratty » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:49 pm

So I sew. I sew everyday. I do other stuff but sewing is the answer to most questions. I cut a few chains. I went looking for mule tape and ended up sewing. I made loops out of heavy nylon straps. Worked great.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:22 pm

danibel wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:00 pm
FIGJAM wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:32 pm
I've switched to mule tape because it's cheap and the 3/4" has a 2500 pound breaking strength.

Made for tension!!! 8)
Figjam. Where were you camped this year? I should have gone to find you. I ended up using ratchet straps because the mule tape and knots scared me.

Good thing you didn't look cause I wasn't there. :lol:
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Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:24 am

danibel wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:52 pm
It's a goal before my next burn to figure out how to secure this BRH shade with all lags and no rebar.
My suspicion is most applications widely believed to still be better served with rebar actually could probably still be better done with lags by merely duct-taping chain to whatever the structure is in the same fashion people usually do with rebar. Sure little additional things may have to be done for structures that depend on rebar having a modicum of bending strength...but the rebar doesn’t really provide that much in the first place in most of the constructs I see.

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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Ratty » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:45 am

It was a dream with my little 18v Ryobi and 2 batteries. I put in ten 16 inch lags and took them back out with ease. The ground was as hard as concrete so it took one battery to get them in. It was a breeze taking them out. I pounded 2 straight rebars for our flag and mascot. Big improvement over all rebar.
Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:29 pm

The “Inner Circle” of people who oversee how our camp’s major structures go together were all very happy with how the lags worked for us this year where we used them and are looking to diversify their utilization going forward. I donated a bunch of extra lags I accumulated just experimenting over the last year, 8 each of the 24”x5/8” and 18”x1/2”. We had maybe a half-dozen impact drivers/wrenches throughout our camp of 40 or so, so we’re pretty safe as far as that’s concerned.

For my own shade structure (and Shiftpod) I was very happy with the ease and expediency of installation and breakdown. Along with the wire rope I finally got around to making, buildup and breakdown this year was wonderfully painless and brainless.

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torrey.smith
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by torrey.smith » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:19 pm

2018, or "I, Asphalt"

I was honored to be invited out early for the Galaxia build, and it was there that we started to realize that pilot holes were going to be almost universally necessary for the big PE-46 penetrators (of which Galaxia used 100!).

This was an extremely humbling year for me, as the Playa was so hard that we had major trouble getting Penetrator-style anchors to bite in on their own. Here you can see Arthur (the designer of Galaxia and a very nice guy) trying to put a PE-46 in with air impact. It tended to simply spin in place and lift the Playa out instead of bite in, engage, and screw down.



We called up some friends closer to city center, and Nathan Altman from Man Krew came over with an augur drill to see if a pilot hole could help us. I was again amazed at how hard and tough the Playa was. This was an amazing year for collaboration, with Arthur, Crispy Dave, Nathan, Jeremy Crandell, Gloria Beck, and others all working together to share knowledge, equipment, and help develop a strategy that could be applied all around the Playa.



The pilot hole definitely helped, but the playa broke the damn auger drill!

Image

This was doubly humbling for me, because I had recently had a ton of fun using a medium-sized augur drill to drill holes for the Pier install over at Fly (another huge honor this year). You can see I might have become slightly drill-drunk.

Image

I went back to the Bay to do default work for a week and came back on the 18th to find that Man Krew and Galaxia had developed a definitive approach: Jackhammer a pilot hole, pour a quart of water, and send a PE-46 in with air impact.

What I didn't realize is that jackhammer was bigger than me, heavy as hell, and generally a monster to deal with. Galaxia was willing to let us borrow it, and Man Krew trained me and my co-lead Martina Bucciantonio (The Coordinatrix) how to do it! Nathan is a very nice man.





Even the humble PE-26 was difficult at times. Here you can see one resisting the bite without a pilot hole. Eventually it went in and got enough purchase deeper down to call it good. The PE-26 usually goes in like a screw into wood.



Once we had helped with the remaining anchors at Man Base (19 PE-46's!) , they turned us loose with the equipment to sink anchors all over the Playa! That was the best day I've ever had on Playa. Pure fun and engagement with artists and builders. Shane Sischo had a list of art projects seeking anchor driving help, and we started tooling around having the time of our lives.

At Rainbow Bridge (Alex and Josh you rock!!! Also, Alex has superhuman strength which I still don't understand.)





At Lodestar (Randy Polumbo is an amazing artist and human). Here you can see the water pour technique into the pilot hole to good effect.



At Sextant we put in 4 of our own custom 36" 17-4 ERD Penetrator prototypes using the jackhammer/air rig. That secured our Zipline with no issues throughout the event.





Surprisingly, some parts of the Playa were a bit softer. RadiaLumia was able to get their PE-36's in with no pilot hole and just our Makita TW-1000 electric impact, followed by hand crank (which I now need to return to them):







All in all it was an amazing and humbling year. I'm grateful for the knowledge and most of all the new friends. Also, we got Phillipe Glade safely down the Zipline <3

Sarge

Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:37 pm

Impressive stuff (again)

Nice to know the playa actually was harder than usual this year. It seemed to me to be so, but I don’t have as consistent a frame of reference since I’ve been doing different and much smaller-scale things every year.

maladroit
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:12 pm

The playa was just so flat and hard this year...it was really beautiful. Great weather too. Reminded me of 2012; super flat playa, great weather, just a couple dust-ups.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by dkanter » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:24 pm

Quick question: For 1/2" x 14" or 1/2" x 18" lag screws, what kind of wired impact driver should I get? How much torque will I need?

Our camp has about 8 carports and 3 yurts that need securing, and I'm looking to get rid of all our rebar.

Thanks!

David

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BBadger
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by BBadger » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:49 am

You probably don't need the 1/2" lag screws, but any normal impact driver/wrench should be able to drive those in.
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danibel
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by danibel » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:40 pm

dkanter wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:24 pm
Quick question: For 1/2" x 14" or 1/2" x 18" lag screws, what kind of wired impact driver should I get? How much torque will I need?

Our camp has about 8 carports and 3 yurts that need securing, and I'm looking to get rid of all our rebar.

Thanks!

David
I used 1/2 by 16 inch Lags to secure my flat top shade and a kodiak. Considered overkill by some, but I slept better knowing I had deep playa penetration. I used a DeWalt 20 volt cordless. Only one light on one battery was used - there are three. That was to drive them all in and remove, plus my campmate borrowed it to secure our petrol container.
In dust we trust.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by DoctorIknow » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:51 pm

danibel wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:40 pm
I used 1/2 by 16 inch Lags to secure my flat top shade and a kodiak. Considered overkill by some.....
"Overkill?"
I read that as the speaker(s) of that sentiment thinking they somehow know exactly the minimum tent stake that will hold up....good luck with that....

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Jackass » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:58 pm

danibel wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:40 pm
I slept better knowing I had deep-playa penetration.
Everybody sleeps better afterwards... :coffee:
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by krly » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:26 pm

I thought I read here (?) that you could buy individual lags from the "fastenersuperstore" . All I can see is full cases.
Did I mis-read or miss some "button" on the store's site ?

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BBadger
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by BBadger » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:09 pm

No, the Superstore is the same store as the one on Amazon, and only sells 50pc cartons. I think the one you're looking for is the Fastener Stop.

Note that I don't know whether these guys actually deliver on their lag screws (I would assume they do). Please report back if you use them.

The 50pc carton makes each lag screw cost about $1.46/pc shipped. The shop linked above charges $1.48/pc + $8 shipping (at least to my location). It's best if you can get a bunch of friends and buy a carton, but buying smaller quantities is still pretty economical.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by krly » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:22 pm

BBadger....OK, I'm an idiot......I can't find 3/8" or 1/2" X 14 or 16 anywhere on that site. May I crave a boon and get ya to gimmee a link ?

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Token
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Token » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:42 pm

krly wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:22 pm
BBadger....OK, I'm an idiot......I can't find 3/8" or 1/2" X 14 or 16 anywhere on that site. May I crave a boon and get ya to gimmee a link ?
You’re buying this shit now?

Far out man!

Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:50 pm

krly wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:22 pm
BBadger....OK, I'm an idiot......I can't find 3/8" or 1/2" X 14 or 16 anywhere on that site. May I crave a boon and get ya to gimmee a link ?
I can handle this call and order them for you. Just need you to email me your credit card number, pin, and security code.

http://www.thefastenerstop.com/category/38LAGB.html

http://www.thefastenerstop.com/category/12LAGB.html

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by BBadger » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:00 pm

krly wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:22 pm
BBadger....OK, I'm an idiot......I can't find 3/8" or 1/2" X 14 or 16 anywhere on that site. May I crave a boon and get ya to gimmee a link ?
I did provide you a link in the post above directly to the product page.

You may be forgiven for not seeing it though. The links on this forum are hard to identify and not underlined. The online store also called them "lag bolts" instead of "lag screws."
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