Burning Painted Objects......

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks for making installations of all sizes or making smaller pieces and jewelry.
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Rabbi Dali Rick
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Burning Painted Objects......

Post by Rabbi Dali Rick » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:55 am

I know that certain types of paint are not burnable, but are there alturnatives such as dies, or water based paint, used instead of household paint or whatever, that "is" burnable?

unknowledgeably,
the rebbi

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:04 am

I'm not sure. Paint is a medium a binder and pigment and all three would have to be clean. Latex binders would be out, so would oil--I assume. I don't know if the oil is so bad, but that always seems to involve nasty thinners, i.e. turpintine. Pigments are often nasty in of themselves--white lead isn't often used these days, but you've still got cadmium and other metals. So maybe a waterbased paint with a natural gum binder and beet juice coloring or something. Note: my expertise comes from easal and brush work up to 20 years ago. There might be better alternatives out there, but this is a place to start thinking about it. You might be better off with some sort of stain or whitewash or milk based paint. Not sure of this, but some of those older formulas may be relitively mild. Others may be extra-nasty.

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Post by geekster » Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:12 am

I think the kind of coloring they used for spraying down people is harmless to the environment so burning painted yahoos is probably okay. Latex (water based) paints should be treated like you are burning rubber. Probably not a good idea. Vegetable based dyes are probably okay
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:25 am

Agree about the latex--but not all water based paints use latex as a binder. There are gums that are used in water colors and guache and da Vinci's paintings are done in "egg tempura" which sounds like there was some way of using egg white as a binder. I have no idea how they would burn Vegetable dyes are the way to go.

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Post by geekster » Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:59 am

Egg tempra paints are sort of okay ... unless they get wet so if you have a misting system or it rains, forget it. Would kindof suck to have your art ruined by someone with a squirt gun.

Hmmm, look what I found! Maybe I will have the kids make some art for me to take out to the playa next year!

http://www.buycostumes.com/ProductDetai ... winthedark
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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:07 pm

I knew that about the tempura poster paints, but not about egg tempura. (Maybe there's no difference.) I've known artists who had to give up oil painting and went to guache and watercolor, so maybe those gums are okay. Still have no idea what they are.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:14 pm

This question could get pretty hairy pretty quickly
https://home.btconnect.com/WOODHEAD-PUB ... paint.html

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shitmouse
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Post by shitmouse » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:06 pm

certain kinds of hash oil has nice tertiary tones.
from lamp black to a deep forest green.

just let me know when your setting it a blaze!
-b
=-=-= \<>/ =-=-=

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Rabbi Dali Rick
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...Now if I can just get it out of the pipe......

Post by Rabbi Dali Rick » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:53 pm

Now seriously folks...
I just want some options to use on a burnable art structure.



seriously,
the rebbi

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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:26 pm

Short answer. I don't know. I have random ideas.
Is there a good hardward store in your area? I mean a real hardware store where contractors go for service, not a home despot where everything's cheap. Someone there might know.
Ink (for fountain pens--not litho inks) might work as a stain. Not sure of the binders or pigments.
Not sure how much use material data safety sheets will be as they apparently don't address the off-label uses, but you might get some clues.
There's a book called Artist Beware that discusses the dangers of art materials--maybe you can gleen info from that.
Fire men might know. Go down to your local fire department, cosy up, ask questions. I bet they know something about the toxicity of various material when burned and there has to be somebody who does that testing. Find out who and see if they have a website.

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Post by unjonharley » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:36 pm

It didn't seem to matter to one camp. They just turned the ply wood painted side down. That was the night of the tempel burn. They did take it to a burn platform @ 8;00 or so. Do they get any points for turning it paint side down?
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Post by Bob » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:54 pm

Dear Rabbi:

You ask for colors not found in nature, for shapes of wood not found in nature.

But in any case -- what is the basis of your fear or dislike for burning paint?

Please be specific.
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:11 am

Bob
Somewhere in all the verbiage the LLC asks us not to burn painted wood.
The basic concern is creating even nastier smoke to be breathed. It's like the couch and rug issue.

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Post by unjonharley » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:20 am

theCryptofishist wrote:Bob
Somewhere in all the verbiage the LLC asks us not to burn painted wood.
The basic concern is creating even nastier smoke to be breathed. It's like the couch and rug issue.


/\
There should be a long winded respond to burning painted items. Would this go along with L.N.T.? Or is dumping into the air is not in that scope?
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:34 am

Sorry unjon.

My post should have said
Somewhere on the main site it asks us not to burn painted wood, but I'm too lazy to track that down right now.

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Post by Bob » Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:57 pm

Ah, well... if looking for alternatives -- bleaching wood with oxalic acid can make it pale; cement can make it dark; blackberries for magenta; tobacco juice for a lovely greenish brown. Latex or other water-soluble paints can be dilluted with water to make any color of wash. Stains or dyes, whether water- or solvent-based, should be fairly inert and low-impact once the volatiles evaporate. Minimizing the amount of paint can be done but using a good primer and a single paint coat, and by using it as highlighting or striping on local areas such as edges. At night, color can be added simply with theater lighting and gels.

But I just don't see a serious problem with painted wood for a sculpture burn, whether at Burning Man or elsewhere, except maybe in its application. DPW over the years has had to clean up quite a few areas where paint was slopped onto the playa, or flaked off a tarp or structure.

FWIW... the 2004 BLM permit docs refer back to the 2003 Environmental Assessment wrt "air quality":
Activities associated with human uses on the playa including the Burning Man Event would increase airborne particulates as discussed in the Playa Sediment and Vegetation section above. Vehicle travel along dirt roads and the playa surface would create fugitive dust and the possibility of dust storms during dry periods of the year. It is estimated that the Burning Man event could increase total fugitive dust potential by about one-tenth over levels associated with all other human uses. However, these impacts would be localized in nature and would be of temporary duration. Event stipulations would require watering of heavy use areas thus reducing the potential for dust during normal wind conditions. The first wetting rains of the fall, which generally occur in September or early October, would stabilize the surface of the playa. Temporary gaseous emissions would occur from vehicle and aircraft traffic in the area. These impacts would be of short duration and would quickly dissipate. Impacts to air quality would be minor and of short duration. Air quality standards would be met. Other air quality impacts involve burning of synthetic materials including plastics and paints, as part of public burns. Synthetics may give off dangerous vapors but the open nature of the area and constant winds would provide for rapid dispersal of vapors. These impacts would also be minimal and short term. BRC and the BLM discourage burning of synthetics through permit stipulations and participant education.

http://www.nv.blm.gov/winnemucca/recrea ... m03-ea.pdf
Wood itself contains polymers (cellulose and lignin) and a variety of organic and inorganic compounds, and under combustion releases carbonaceous particulates, water vapor, CO2, CO, and various organic compounds -- tar, aromatic hydrocarbons, etc. Benzene, formaldehyde, methane, and whatnot might be produced in small amounts from burning plain lumber. Adding a fraction of a percent of paint or glue -- a few more polymeric compounds -- to the mix would only make a tiny proportional difference. Paint as a consumer product has certainly been made safer in recent years.

What any of this might have to do with health or environmental consequences seems largely a matter of conjecture -- and air quality in a broad sense, beyond whatever regulatory standards might apply or be enforced, seems largely to be a matter of perception, informed by social and cultural norms. California Indians formerly used intentionally set low-level wildfires to manage oak woodlands, and rice stubble has been burned by farmers in the Central Valley. Burning of wood and ag waste has become less acceptable near populated areas, but it's still done in more remote areas -- similar to vehicle smog regulations that vary from city to country.

All of us lead our daily lives with a de facto tolerance for levels human-produced compounds in the air that weren't present prior to the time human technological activities began tens of thousands of years ago. We accept that the meat-eater in the next toilet stall might not perform a courtesy flush. We manage to tolerate planes, trains, and automobiles, and most of us avoid breathing directly from the tailpipe.

The rule of thumb with toxics is that the dose typically makes the poison -- a small dose, over a short period of exposure, can usually be tolerated by the magnificent processes built into the human body. At Burning Man, few people stop to think about their intake from the glue in the plywood, the coated nails, the paraffin-soaked burlap, the zinc on the Simpson plates, the chemicals in the wiring and lighting fixtures, or the radioactive elements in the smoke alarm in the Man's crotch. We just cough it up, blow out the snot, and resume a host of more explicit self-abuses. YMMV, of course.
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Post by geekster » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:31 pm

create fugitive dust
AWESOME. I had been wondering what the Dirt Rangers were for!
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Post by diane o'thirst » Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:04 pm

If you want to take that much effort and don't mind the smell of rotten milk, here's a recipe:

Get a couple gallons of milk. Don't put them away, let them sit out and go sour. After a couple weeks the water (whey) will separate out, leaving the solids. Pour off the whey, and what's left is medium and binder.

All that remains is to colour it. Crush up calcium tabs for white, charcoal for black, green leaves for green, yarrow or tumeric or boiled onion skin water for yellow, indigo or ground-up dried blueberries or grapes for blue; minerals, plant material, et alia. Or heck, just hit it with tempura powder. Mix to your personal colour preference.

Et le voilà! You've created a whole bunch of milk paint, 100% natural and inert, bright colours, fine for burning, and done it for less than $20 if you have a garden or gleaner's group connection.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

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Post by PetsUntilEaten » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:52 am

BTW - Many flat cactus have a kind of white crusty stuff on them. Underneath is a neat little bug that makes the whire crust. When crushed the bugs make the best indigo blue you can find. MMMmmm crushed bugs and collage textiles class.

And YES - I know how to use a drop spindle too.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:06 am

PetsUntilEaten wrote:And YES - I know how to use a drop spindle too.
This little fishy is uncertain whether to go to the Crush thread or the theme thread after this information.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:12 pm

bump
The Lady with a Lamprey

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Post by Mister Jellyfish Mister » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:06 am

Bump again! Looking for burnable paints for the Zsu Zsu installation and I'm finding new developments like this:

http://www.greenplanetpaints.com/?gclid ... agodDVy2bg

I've got an e-mail in to inquire and will let you know here their reply.

Anybody else find less-toxic burnable paint alternatives lately?
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Post by AKAparttime » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:21 am

What diane o'thirt said.....
Milk paint is the way to go..
theres some lime in the mix too...
~Parttime

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Post by Ugly Dougly » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:32 am

It's actually thrilling that people are even asking these questions.

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Post by MozyBonz » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:48 am

http://www.playatech.com/index.php?prodDesc=Support

Burnable Paint?

Edit:sorry down the page

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:52 am

<sigh>

Per my post above, nobody *official* really cares a lot about paint, but they might care about excessive amounts of "synthetics". Just use less paint if you want to go all hippie & shit, ie thin it down. Or use dyes or stains.

Just spread less disinformation, please. Worrying about a 2-mil thickness of latex paint over four inches of wood is idiotic.
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Post by MozyBonz » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:04 am

Bob wrote:<sigh>

Per my post above, nobody *official* really cares a lot about paint, but they might care about excessive amounts of "synthetics". Just use less paint if you want to go all hippie & shit, ie thin it down. Or use dyes or stains.

Just spread less disinformation, please. Worrying about a 2-mil thickness of latex paint over four inches of wood is idiotic.

Hahaha my bar has gallons and gallons of exterior house paint put on thick with a texture gun. the sign has been in the weather since BM06.


Please don't burn the bar it's bad for you.

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:13 am

How many hippies have you poisoned with all that paint?
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Post by MozyBonz » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:25 am

Bob wrote:How many hippies have you poisoned with all that paint?

Not enough.....

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Post by Teo del Fuego » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:52 am

Bob wrote:How many hippies have you poisoned with all that paint?
not as many as poisoned by the drinks served at the Bar. Keep that poison coming!

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