Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

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sparr
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Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by sparr » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:33 pm

Has anyone ever tried to put tongue/groove/keyed/doweled/interlocking/etc edges on their hexayurt roof to avoid having to tape it down? From what I've read and seen in videos, it seems like with the semi-folding designs that set of six edges is the most annoying to line up and tape, and uses up the majority of the non-reusable tape.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Elderberry » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:48 pm

I hope not.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by maladroit » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:50 pm

In most hexayurt instructions available online, found through Google searches, it's often mentioned that a much better fit can be accomplished by cutting precise bevels on the edges of the panels before taping them. You still need to tape it down, but it does lock the hexayurt together more tightly.

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by torrey.smith » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:16 pm

I really love me some serious dovetails, but I think the R-Max material might not be the best fit unless you do a lot of tape reinforcement.

I wonder if long zippers might work...
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by sparr » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:24 pm

dovetails are on a different axis than I'm thinking of. I don't think you could dovetail together the roof and walls of a hexayurt without detaching some other edges that are already supposed to be rigid.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Canoe » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:38 pm

It's been discussed before. A number of times.

Apart from the decreased ability to shed wind pressure, and the minor issues of sealing against dust (light tape or weather stripping foam in the grove) and wood (or aluminum) providing a thermal path for heat to get inside, the main issues seem to be: a lack of the strength obtained from the "power band" wrap of tape around the entire yurt at the top of the walls, and the extension of over-the-top tape into attachment points for super secure tie-downs. The ease of re-usability has intrigued me, but I, and many others, so far haven't come up with anything close to the resulting strength when using the appropriate bi-filament tape in the recommended manner.
Remember, it has to be able to handle some significant winds.

Wind, hexayurts, tape. viewtopic.php?f=277&t=65276

A bevel may save the situation if you went cheap on the tape width, to get more tape on a panel surface; easier to damage bevelled edges in transport (care needed). Go cheap with the wrong tape at your peril.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Doctor VonBacon » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:41 pm

After sitting at my desk and work and sketching out a few designs utilizing 2x4s, lag bolts, and door hinges, it is the opinion of this non-engineer that for the sake of simplicity, you should just use tape.

Sometimes, you just have to go with what works.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by LowePro » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:10 pm

Interlocking foam boards will not be strong enough. No matter what style or type of joinery. The wind is too strong. A yurt wobbles and vibrates with the wind and every time the door opens and closes, or every time someone bumps into it. There is no way that fitted-joint cut from the foam panels would hold up to playa wind. The foam board would buckle or snap. Sorry, no way. Good luck.
Nice wide tape is pricey, but forgiving to mistakes and edges that don't line up perfectly. The yurts in my camp have never tried to bevel the edges or line up the corners absolutely critically. The wide tape covers the margin of error.

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by sparr » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:38 am

I brainstormed a bit more on this idea with a friend who is making a plywood yurt. Here's something we came up with for him:

Image

green is the wall, red is the roof. black is bifilament tape, but it's only adhered (yellow) to the wall, not to the roof, so it doesn't get cut during disassembly.

The grey band is a zip tie, which would only work with the wooden walls for my friend, not for a foam board which they would tear through. However, I'm not sure what the failure mode is here without the zip ties.

Can someone describe to me how a yurt made like this would fail? Like, which parts would bend where under what load, that wouldn't also fail if the roof were adhered to the tape?
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by maladroit » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:45 am

Yeah I don't know what you mean by the tape only being adhered to the wall. What's the point of having it then?

The failure mode is that 2" of polyiso foam is pretty strong...1.5" is strong....1" is strong...0.75" is getting a bit weak...0.5" is waiting for a chance to break....0.25" is probably broken already. Trying to rely on such thin, tapering features is just a really dumb idea for anyone who has actually handled this material at some point.

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by sparr » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:07 pm

The bottom half of the tape, adhered to the wall, is a tension band. It stops the wall hexagon from expanding. I've been told that this is an important function of that tape ring in hexayurt construction.

The top half, not adhered to the roof, stops the roof from sliding up or up+left (in the diagram).

The tapering part of the green foam could be made thicker by moving the red part to the right, although that would make for a bit more math on the roof panel dimensions. However, notice that the tapering part is entirely within the area covered by the bifilament tape. The green foam there can't fail (by breaking off and moving to the left) unless the tape also fails, right?
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by maladroit » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:12 pm

The tape is flexible and it has nothing to prevent the top edge from flexing outwards, since it's not taped to the roof anymore.

I see you've ignored the possibility of rain, too.

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by motskyroonmatick » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:38 pm

IMHO Most of the strength in the yurt is that it is continuously taped on every joint so that the seams make structural units. Breaking up the continual connection in to smaller connection points will allow more flex and high loading of the connection points leading to failure. Tape helps keep out the dust too.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Mojojita » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:04 pm

Raw cut edges of Rmax are very moopy and have to be taped to cover them. You would have to carefully tape all of the keyed edges - making a good fit very unlikely.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by LowePro » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:48 pm

Sparrtacus,
the level of precision to cut the edge of foam board or plywood with such an accurate cut to line up that slot is prohibitive. You won't get a tight fit, and even if you did, the slightest wind or bump will make the whole yurt vibrate and shimmy the joint loose. It gets crazy windy out there. The panels bow and waver. Even if the tape holds the foamboard slot could snap and just dangle on the tape. And the tape does fail and peel sometimes in the heat/wind/dust.

It's an interesting concept, but if you're buying the tape and running it all the way around the perimeter of the yurt anyways, what are you accomplishing by NOT taping the roof as well? The extra hours of time trying to make the perfect slot cut, and undoubted mistakes and second and third trips to Home Despot for more panels, seem scarcely worth the trouble. (Compared to just taping it on the Playa and cutting the tape on your way home. These steps take 10 minutes max). The slots won't hold up to the wind anyway. What looks good in a 2D or even 3D render doesn't always hold true. The panels bulge and sway. The ground isn't 100% level so there's some unexpected potholes and tilt issues. Panels get crimped and bumped during loading and setup. Your idea is depending on a millimeter level of detail that just isn't possible on the Playa. Sorry not trying to shoot this down, but really just sharing what I think will save you time and $$. Please if you do this and I'm wrong, come back and let me know! Good luck.

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Elderberry » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:33 pm

If you do build this, please let me know where you are camped. I'd love to come and see this.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Canoe » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:56 pm

sparr wrote:... Can someone describe to me how a yurt made like this would fail? Like, which parts would bend where under what load, that wouldn't also fail if the roof were adhered to the tape?
The post three above yours includes a link to some sample loads on Hexayurts, and the loads on the tape. The tiniest yurt in the example gets between 550 and 1100 lbs of force to deal with from 75 mph wind. The wind can be stronger. A larger yurt can end up with 2250 to 4500 lbs. of force to deal with from 75 mph.

The roof structure, held together with strong re-enforced tape with lots of holding force, resists the wall panels folding in under wind load, when they're held together with the strong re-enforced high holding force tape.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Canoe » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:57 pm

motskyroonmatick wrote:IMHO Most of the strength in the yurt is that it is continuously taped on every joint so that the seams make structural units. Breaking up the continual connection in to smaller connection points will allow more flex and high loading of the connection points leading to failure. Tape helps keep out the dust too.
THIS ^^^
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by trilobyte » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:27 pm

Please take pictures, whatever you do...

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by sparr » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:17 pm

asr9754 wrote:if you're buying the tape and running it all the way around the perimeter of the yurt anyways, what are you accomplishing by NOT taping the roof as well?
not having to cut the tape ring to disassemble the yurt. I'm trying to reduce recurring cost. I'm willing to put in an extra 8 hours of precision routing and taping if it saves me $20 per yurt deployment.
Canoe wrote:The roof structure, held together with strong re-enforced tape with lots of holding force, resists the wall panels folding in under wind load, when they're held together with the strong re-enforced high holding force tape.
Someone earlier mentioned my walls flexing outwards because the smaller inner lip on the wall wouldn't be enough to stop it. However, what you're describing is different. I think my walls will be as strong against inwards folding as a fully taped joint. For my wall to flex inwards the roof panel will have to flex upwards, which the tape-strap should prevent even without adhesive.
maladroit wrote:I see you've ignored the possibility of rain, too.
You got me there. I did completely forget about rain, and that's might be a critical flaw with the tape strap as drawn. I'm gonna make a small example joint and see how it fares with water flowing over it.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by maladroit » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:23 pm

sparr wrote:
asr9754 wrote:if you're buying the tape and running it all the way around the perimeter of the yurt anyways, what are you accomplishing by NOT taping the roof as well?
not having to cut the tape ring to disassemble the yurt. I'm trying to reduce recurring cost. I'm willing to put in an extra 8 hours of precision routing and taping if it saves me $20 per yurt deployment.
Canoe wrote:The roof structure, held together with strong re-enforced tape with lots of holding force, resists the wall panels folding in under wind load, when they're held together with the strong re-enforced high holding force tape.
Someone earlier mentioned my walls flexing outwards because the smaller inner lip on the wall wouldn't be enough to stop it. However, what you're describing is different. I think my walls will be as strong against inwards folding as a fully taped joint. For my wall to fold inwards the roof panel will have to move upwards,
Exposed tape gets crumbly and can't be used year after year.

The roof panels will be moving upwards, downward, sideways, twisting, and curving. These are flexible materials in an environment that loves to flex things.

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Jovankat » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:55 pm

sparr wrote:
asr9754 wrote: I'm willing to put in an extra 8 hours of precision routing and taping if it saves me $20 per yurt deployment.

Ok. Wow.

Let's say your design lasts 3 burns without extra work being needed, I think I'm being generous there. That's $60. For 8 hours of work you're only valuing your time at $7.50 an hour. You need to to respect yourself more than that dude!

And what if it fails? Will $20 saved really be worth it if by tuesday you don't have proper shelter?

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by LowePro » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:45 am

"For my wall to flex inwards the roof panel will have to flex upwards, which the tape-strap should prevent even without adhesive."

Don't think so. The foam panels are very flexible, it doesn't take much for them to go from | to ( even if the edges seem secure the middle of the panel still bulges and buckles in the wind, contorting the frame and the whole structure. The tape itself is not made of steel, it is also flexible and stretchable. The roof panels will be able to flex upwards and pop out of the slot. The tape strap just lying on the edge of the roof, without adhesive, does not do much of anything to keep the roof panels in place. The tape would just unfold and let the roof go. A zip tie would just rip right thru the foam. These materials are flexible and imperfect. They will bend and wiggle in all sorts of ways.

As a counterpoint to my being so negative, I'll share this yurt design I saw on C-list, using reinforced panels and zip ties. I don't know anything about the success of it, just sharing the linke. Several pics available, interesting idea:
http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/for/5048416419.html

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Elderberry » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:39 am

He intended to build his yurt this way from the beginning and doesn't want to hear any reasons his plan might not be feasible. So, no matter what is said, the response will always be to justify why the response is incorrect and his plan is correct.

I say let him go ahead and build it and stop trying to discourage him and change his mind. The only thing I want now is to see pictures and visit it out on the playa. I just hope it works better than the one that was built with zippers. :roll:
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Ratty » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:49 am

Sparr, If you make it really big you can store your zorb in it.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by maladroit » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:52 am

Elderberry wrote:I say let him go ahead and build it and stop trying to discourage him and change his mind. The only thing I want now is to see pictures and visit it out on the playa. I just hope it works better than the one that was built with zippers. :roll:
I really wanted the zippers idea to work, that would have been great. I also think there is room for improvement on the tape side of things...let's all take a UV-sensitive critical structural element to a high altitude with the most UV exposure it could possibly get.

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Elderberry » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:05 am

maladroit wrote:
Elderberry wrote:I say let him go ahead and build it and stop trying to discourage him and change his mind. The only thing I want now is to see pictures and visit it out on the playa. I just hope it works better than the one that was built with zippers. :roll:
I really wanted the zippers idea to work, that would have been great. I also think there is room for improvement on the tape side of things...let's all take a UV-sensitive critical structural element to a high altitude with the most UV exposure it could possibly get.
So did I. He put a lot of work into it and I actually thought that it might have been a viable idea. Just coincidentally, I volunteer for bus depot, and I just happened to look out the window and lo and behold there was his yurt. So I went over to take a closer look, he wasn't there, but someone in his camp showed it to me. The easiest way to describe it is if you imaging taping your yurt with a 1" gap between every joint. The only way it could actually stand up straight was that he braced it with a couple of poles on the inside. It was also as dusty inside as a tent.

And yes, that is one flaw with the tape. Though I've never had it fail (yet, knock on wood) and it's usually on the playa almost two weeks. But if you're looking for a positive side to this, if you don't clean the yurt until just before the next burn, the tape literally falls off! (Which makes retaping much faster and easier.)
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by maladroit » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:26 am

Elderberry wrote:But if you're looking for a positive side to this, if you don't clean the yurt until just before the next burn, the tape literally falls off! (Which makes retaping much faster and easier.)
Good news there, I guess. What kind of psycho cleans and retapes a hexayurt earlier than the day before leaving for the next burn?

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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Elderberry » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:59 pm

maladroit wrote:
Elderberry wrote:But if you're looking for a positive side to this, if you don't clean the yurt until just before the next burn, the tape literally falls off! (Which makes retaping much faster and easier.)
Good news there, I guess. What kind of psycho cleans and retapes a hexayurt earlier than the day before leaving for the next burn?
Haha, we'll be doing it this week or next. Our yurts have been going to the playa ever since we first saw on on exhibit at GreenMan, so for several years. I sometimes do wonder what effect, if any, the dust has on the poly-what-ever-it-is in the panels. The only thing we noticed when cleaning them last year was some of the foil appeared to be bubbling up. We just poked a small hole in those bubbled spots, pushed the air out and taped over the area with foil tape.
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Re: Keyed hexayurt edges to avoid taping?

Post by Canoe » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:04 pm

If you can find a way to hold it together with no or minimal structural tape, then "Stucco tape" would be a good tape to seal seals against dust and rain.

Do search for the other threads where this type of thing has been discussed before. There is nothing complete yet, but there are some key elements that you may find useful.
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