Responsibility for safety?

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sparr
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by sparr » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:11 pm

gaminwench wrote:You really cannot responsibly set a wind-driven thing free on the playa, does it really take two threads and over 50 replies to make you see that?
So far we haven't had even a single thread about that. That wasn't the original topic of this thread. I did just mention setting it free at another event, and I've gotten advice about tethering it on the playa. However, the question of this thread remains, if someone else is using it, and THEY set it free, then who is the irresponsible person?
If you want to make a reply about my personality instead of about what this thread is about, don't clutter this thread, post over here instead.

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GreyCoyote
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by GreyCoyote » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:17 pm

Sparr: On behalf of every lawyer out there, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.

From the plaintiffs bar, your verbose idiocy and public statements will be useful in the extreme when the jury reads this and finds that you willfully, knowingly, recklessly and with objective warning and full knowledge of the danger, allowed your contraption to hurt/maim/kill its occupants and/or festival passersby. Your intentional failure to supervise and abrogation of your duty to warn of the known risks makes this a stellar accomplishment. Bravo!

From the defense bar, your prattle and refusal to acknowledge plain facts constitutes a billing opportunity extraordinare... and then since your conduct is clearly planned and the result of conscious indifference, any insurance coverage you might have just vanished, making you individually liable... and providing another lawyer another opportunity to bill you.

You, sir, have just done something no other eplaya poster has ever done: forged agreement between all the lawyers.

In answer to your question: YOU ARE LIABLE. But hey... Try and prove me wrong. You are going to make everyone rich! Please do bring your toy!!!!
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digital
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by digital » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:43 pm

Ya, on second thought, bring it. I can't wait to find it unattended...

:twisted:

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Doctor VonBacon
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by Doctor VonBacon » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:44 pm

Can I stuff it full of amateur DJs and wait for the wind to carry it off into the distance?

Because if I can, I'm going to bring a dozen. We'll call it "public service performance art."
I like eggs.

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mdmf007
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by mdmf007 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:47 pm

Pretty much answered and spinning out of control - for more vinyl related questions see the Jeep thread about, yeah pretty much the same thing.

:)

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=74263&p=1080003#p1080003
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Eric
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by Eric » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:13 pm

Mod note: we've discussed this, and while it might seem like it's going in circles, it is bringing up good points on personal responsibility. As always, if you think a thread is dead or going nowhere you're free to stop reading it.
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sparr
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by sparr » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:22 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:In answer to your question: YOU ARE LIABLE. But hey... Try and prove me wrong. You are going to make everyone rich! Please do bring your toy!!!!
I am fully aware that out in the real world, if I put a slide in my back yard without a fence and a child falls off, I'll get sued and have to pay for it. I'm not asking about laws, court, or the world outside of Burning Man.

I am under the impression that putting up a slide without a fence around it and letting people climb it and slide down it is pretty commonplace at BM. As is getting friction burns or sprains while going down said slide(s). And yet, it seems that burners don't [frequently] sue each other over these sorts of situations, or even get mad at each other.

So, it is this distinction that I am asking about. How far does responsibility for your own actions extend at BM, given that it demonstrably extends farther than in the real world.
If you want to make a reply about my personality instead of about what this thread is about, don't clutter this thread, post over here instead.

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digital
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by digital » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:35 pm

Dug this up. I knew the name "sparr" raised a red flag. This is what we're dealing with here... someone who needs convincing just to go to BM.

(He even admits in the post he's antagonistic. I'm convinced he's trolling us.)

[Edited to remove link]
The title might come across as antagonistic, but it's accurate. I've never been to BM. I've been going to multiple regional burns each year for the last six years. Every year I think about going to BM, and how much it will cost (in cash, effort, time off work, etc), and I decide I'd rather go to as many other events as possible instead. This year is no different, but I'm open to being persuaded if people can point out things I haven't considered or don't expect.

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Eric
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by Eric » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:40 pm

digital wrote:(He even admits in the post he's antagonistic. I'm convinced he's trolling us.)
[Mod hat off]
You weren't convinced when no answer was good enough?
Doesn't mean there isn't good information in here for others to read, but answering his questions is rather pointless, IMHO.
[/Mod hat on]
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by misfit » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:13 pm

sparr you have some great questions here, unfortunately most of your questions are outside of eplayas knowledge base. burningman does have a safety team, and my advice would be to contact them to find the answers you seek. have a great burn sparr.......
Be happy while you're living, For you're a long time dead.

inventory
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by inventory » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:30 pm

sparr wrote: I am under the impression that putting up a slide without a fence around it and letting people climb it and slide down it is pretty commonplace at BM. As is getting friction burns or sprains while going down said slide(s). And yet, it seems that burners don't [frequently] sue each other over these sorts of situations, or even get mad at each other.

So, it is this distinction that I am asking about. How far does responsibility for your own actions extend at BM, given that it demonstrably extends farther than in the real world.
I've been lurking, and generally felt like anything I could say was being said by others. But I'll try one more time for clarity.

The issue here is not the safety of you or your property. (That is your call.)

The issue here is not even really the safety of the people you let into your zorb, or the property they bring with them. (That is their call.)
As you noted, legally you would be liable, but as burners it is a commonplace thing to have a structure or entertainment that is dangerous (aka back-of-ticket entertainment). Morally and emotionally the responders so far feel you have a duty to ensure that the entertainment you provide is not egregiously negligible; if you can answer the question "how would you feel if a rider got hurt?" with a clean conscience (because you trained them, for example), that's great - go ahead.

The issue here is the safety of people who were minding their own business, not choosing to engage with your zorb, and yet still could sustain injury or property damage. They have no say.
The playa is a different environment than most regional burns because of (not least) its wind (which, as previously noted, can spring up to 60 mph in less than 60 seconds). This is where the zorb becomes different from a slide, because slides do not generally get up and fly down the street in the wind. A better metaphor would be an art car that you are letting strangers drive (which is not allowed by the DMV and will get your art car banned). Responders so far overwhelmingly feel you need to take steps to keep this from happening.


This opinion is directly in line with the 10 principles, specifically civil responsibility. Quoted from that link (emphasis mine):
"Civic Responsibility
We value civil society. Community members who organize events should assume responsibility for public welfare and endeavor to communicate civic responsibilities to participants. They must also assume responsibility for conducting events in accordance with local, state and federal laws."

Additionally, I consider an untethered-zorb-under-wind to fall under the definition of a motorized vehicle - specifically a wind-powered one. I strongly encourage you to read that link, specifically the definition of motorized vehicles (right under "Motorized Vehicles in Black Rock City") and the sections about "Certain Wind-Powered Vehicles" (allowed) and "Wind-Powered Vehicles NOT Allowed in Black Rock City". The difference between the two categories is essentially: can the operator control the vehicle under wind, and does the vehicle stop if the operator is incapacitated? If not, you can only operate it out by the airport, where the only people to get hurt are you and your passengers (not bystanders).

I personally consider someone else's poorly-staked tent to be a public nuisance but a hazard most attendees should be ready to deal with. I would consider an art car with a known sticky accelerator to be a danger to life and safety that attendees should not be expected to be ready for, and the owner of said art car should not bring it to the playa. I consider a wind-driven vehicle that requires training on how to use the brakes (such as a wheeled windboard) to be okay if the operator is skilled. But if that operator had no brakes, or alternately put it somewhere public with a visual setup that encouraged strangers to use it, I would be calling the rangers and possibly taking steps to immobilize the vehicle until they got there. I would consider myself justified in this.


So all that leads me to the below conclusion:

If you will be tethering your zorb at all times, great and go ahead. That solves it (assuming you do due diligence research about how strongly you need to tether it). It sounds like a fun experience, and I would probably drop by to try it out after the sun went down.

If you will not be tethering it, the general consensus as well as my own personal opinion is that the weather on the BRC playa makes this a) sort of negligible and a possible asshole move to do to voluntary riders, because it's difficult for even a skilled rider to remain safe in these conditions, and b) definitely negligible and a definite asshole move for the people downwind, who are not prepared for a zorb at speed, with or without a rider, to come flying out of nowhere and hit them. In this case you can still do it - just not in the city, only at the airport, as per the vehicle rules linked above.

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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by MyDearFriend » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:47 am

Inventory, please come to the M&G, because I would like to give you a big hug. 8)
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sparr
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by sparr » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:20 pm

inventory wrote:The issue here is the safety of people who were minding their own business, not choosing to engage with your zorb, and yet still could sustain injury or property damage. They have no say.
The playa is a different environment than most regional burns because of (not least) its wind (which, as previously noted, can spring up to 60 mph in less than 60 seconds). This is where the zorb becomes different from a slide, because slides do not generally get up and fly down the street in the wind. A better metaphor would be an art car that you are letting strangers drive (which is not allowed by the DMV and will get your art car banned). Responders so far overwhelmingly feel you need to take steps to keep this from happening.
Thanks for narrowing it down with another example. Prohibiting letting strangers drive an art car is a good example. Can you help me understand the line between that and loaning my nailgun to someone?
If you want to make a reply about my personality instead of about what this thread is about, don't clutter this thread, post over here instead.

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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by Sham » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:40 pm

sparr wrote:Thanks for narrowing it down with another example. Prohibiting letting strangers drive an art car is a good example. Can you help me understand the line between that and loaning my nailgun to someone?
YOU have a nail gun?

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some seeing eye
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by some seeing eye » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:13 pm

Tell us where you are camping so we can stay beyond nail gun range!

The event operates under Nevada law. The impulse to pursue liability is only suspended by consent. There is fine print on the ticket, but it has not been tested. YMMV. This is not legal advice.
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by GreyCoyote » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:02 pm

sparr wrote: Can you help me understand the line between that and loaning my nailgun to someone?
Sure.

Nailguns are these things you hold in your hand, press the trigger, and it goes BLAM!

Art cars are these things we use to transport drunken burners.

See the difference? If not, console yourself in knowing they are both hardware devices, both run in real-time using linear space,, and have drivers that will do the hardware device abstraction for you. You just need to concentrate on trivial things that can do no harm worse than a page fault.
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Re: Responsibility for safety?

Post by Jackass » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:14 am

Would you mind standing in the zorb while we unload on it with the nail gun? Zorb shooting gallery! We can start with #8s, if those aren't long enough, we'll step it up to 16s or start throwing lags like throwing knives...
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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