"New" shade structure material

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Capinator
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Capinator » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:21 pm

Hi ZigZag,
Cone math is easy once you get the hang of it.

Cone attaching is difficult. Our design this year depends upon having PVC fittings. It is hard to explain, but the cones are tied to the PVC frame, and the frame gets its rigidity from the fittings. This design allows us to keep the top, the cone, and the end caps all as individual flat pieces, which makes them a lot easier to fold and deploy.

Last year we taped the cone to the top. That sounds easy, but it was a five person job and took hours. The trouble with taping on a cone is that you are taking three large 2-dimensional pieces (two cones and a top) and taping them together to form a very large 3-dimensional piece. The taping itself is insanely difficult, and folding the 3D piece is difficult and ends up looking like a giant aluminum foil ball.

I can, however, draw up the pieces for you based upon a hut made with 20' ribs. How many linear feet of 60" wide foil do you have?

Capinator
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Capinator » Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:36 pm

Hi zigzag,
here are the drawings. You need about 46 linear feet. You would need to figure out some way to attach it to the frame (tape). If you make the frame length maybe 12 inches shorter than your top width, the top will "hang" over the edges of the cone and help keep wind or rain from catching.

bah! I can't add the files - I will email them to you. I get a "Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached." error.

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ZigZag
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by ZigZag » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:20 pm

Hey Cap.
Thank you, I will dig into it this weekend.

I got my core hut all built. Yea! The foil was really easy to work with and where I joined the seams I folded the edge back 1" on each piece and hooked them together before laying down the tape. The whole thing is so much lighter in weight for a tarp of equal size (24 X 25)

The bigger challenge was sliding the canopy up over the PVC frame by myself. I used a fiberglass pole with a hook in the end to grab the loop on the tarp grabbers and that helped me lift and pull it over. I need to rehearse that a few times. It wasn't too bad but it was also a windless cool day in my protected yard, not a hot windy day on the playa!

That attic foil totally rocks though. Its reflectivity is amazing and it is so strong. I have enough left over to either attempt a cone or make a cover for my cargo van.

I can;t attach pictures either but I will email them back to you.
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Lascivious
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Lascivious » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:00 pm

http://retrofrolic.com/wp-content/uploa ... lWhite.jpg

This my new addition. 20mil poly tarp heavy sucker though. 45'x70' layes heavy on the pipe frame and barely moves. 10 feet high ceiling with about a 3000 sq foot footprint. White on the outside is quite reflective.

http://retrofrolic.com/wp-content/uploa ... Pagoda.jpg

It's black on the inside which makes for a very cool canvas to express oneself.
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Capinator
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Capinator » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:35 pm

For those following the various attic foil monkey hut threads. Here is a photo of our first prototype build. We made some changes to seal better, and I think it will work pretty well! (knock on wood). We will be at 4:45 and E with four of these if you would like to check it out! See you all there!
new tent small file.jpg
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trilobyte
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by trilobyte » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:49 pm

Good luck, Capinator!

And wow, Lascivious, 20 mil sounds like one helluva tarp - I think even my heaviest duty UV tarps are only 14 mil or so.

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ZigZag
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by ZigZag » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:53 pm

Capinator:
That looks awesome. I will definitely look you up on playa.

I couldn't get the cone done for mine this year, I reached my limit on what I could do. But I can't wait to try out the foil hut.
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DoctorIknow
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by DoctorIknow » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:03 pm

Holy Crapola!

I have not an inkling of what it will feel like to be inside that monster, and really excited to check it out.

kevinwells
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by kevinwells » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:55 am

Hi,
After visiting your very successful monkey huts last year, I decided to use atticfoil for my Yurt covering. I have a 16 foot yurt that will be placed around 7:15 between A and B, (Firmament camp). I am using the attic foil for the both the top and side coverings. I will post photos once i have the skin in place. (just received material this week!)

Kevin

Capinator
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Capinator » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:06 pm

These worked awesome! My DIY swamp cooler failed, but these were completely dust free and comfortable to sleep in until about 1:00, without active cooling. For the one where we gifted misting, we had people in for hours to get out of the dust and heat, and one couple tried to consummate their relationship on the floor!
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Canoe
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Canoe » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:14 pm

Capinator wrote:... these were completely dust free and comfortable to sleep in until about 1:00, without active cooling...
That's great!!!
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Capinator
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Capinator » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:21 pm

Better pics for those that are interested.
better tent 1.jpg
better tent 2.jpg
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Ratty
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Ratty » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:45 pm

Those are very impressive. I saw Zig-Zags monkey hut several times during the week. If I built one I would use that material for the back 2/3 and shade cloth for the front third of it, (so I could see out). Great job.
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krly
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by krly » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:52 pm

So, after taping, packing,un-packing, erecting, tearing down and re-packing.....how does it look like the materials will hold up in the long run ?

Capinator
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Capinator » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:09 am

I would say these will last a few years. We built two tents last year and enlarged them this year. The old parts were fine. Everything is folded up again and ready for next year. Nothing tore, everything is ready to go. We have some minor rips around two of the zippers that we will need to tape and sew. I have lots of ideas for how to make set-up easier in the field, but they all involve a lot of work modifying the tents down here. My camp is pretty tired of making tents right now, so I think we will just leave them and build them the same next year.

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silvergirl70
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by silvergirl70 » Sat May 27, 2017 10:23 am

This is to Capinator:
Looking thru monkey hut designs and came across this thread. I stopped by your misting tent last year (I recognized it from the overhead picture; I remember you guys being near the big green parachute camp) and did enjoy the coolness!
Good job with the design and materials! I'll keep an eye out for you again this year!
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some seeing eye
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by some seeing eye » Sat May 27, 2017 11:42 am

My go-to is Rosebrand for metallic fabrics in the wide decorative fabric space. All these new festival tent projects have metallic poly or nylon fabric, and some insulated quilting. They may fall into the technical fabric classification. One wonders what the difference is between decorative, technical and fashion fabrics?

If you find reflective fabric yardage sources for DIY, list here or PM. Thanks!
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kevinwells
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by kevinwells » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:20 am

Hi, Just to refresh this thread a little... I built a cover for my traditional wooden yurt using this material. My camp mates affectionately called it the "jiffy Pop popcorn yurt" . The entire thing was cut out and then taped together with filament tape. For areas where I wanted to reinforce the edges, and insert grommets, I folded over the attic foil and then inserted nylon webbing material, then taped it all up.
Tape is as strong as the attic foil and there were no failures due to tape.
Performance wise, it did a wonderful job of keeping the inside at least 10 degrees cooler than the outside.. By the end of the week, the foil part had started to get a bit crinkled(see photo from inside) , It remained waterproof, but I am going to have to take a serious look at it to see if it can be used for a second year.
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smashz
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by smashz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:00 pm

[quote="Akela"]
I made a tent cover in 2014 out of the same material from the same vendor, using detachable sections fastened together with adhesive-backed velcro strips. It has held up great the last two burns, and I definitely intend to keep using it. It keeps my tent cooler, darker, and less dusty than my neighbors', shed a lot of the pre-event rain last year, and has never caught wind or come undone.
[/quote]

Can you describe how you did the velcro? What kind, size? Any concerns about it?

kevinwells
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by kevinwells » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:38 pm

Hi all, Just to give everyone an update as to how attic foil has held up on my yurt...

I did indeed re-use the same attic foil cover for my "jiffy-pop popcorn" Yurt for a second year. Absolutely no problems and it did not bother me that there were some light leaks. It did not seem to affect the materials ability to reflect light.
During the day, I enjoyed the speckles of light from the inside. Despite the crinkles and fold lines, it remained water and wind proof. Still no failures on the bi-filiment tape, that is some strong stuff...

I am now planning on using it for a 3rd year. I plan on making a few adjustments, and I too was looking at velcro attachments.However I am not into sewing so instead I am going to add some grommets and hold things down with rope.

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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by kevinwells » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:59 am

I suggest you consider "Buy vs Make", as you will spend many many an hour developing code that others have labored over and refined...What do you consider your time worth?

A growing number of people on the Playa use the "LED Lab" application by Christopher schardt. It is the software he uses to control Firmament ( the big canopy of LEDS + classical music, usually between the man and the temple...). It runs on an iPad or iPhone and allows both programming patterns and whole bunch of presets.

Last year, there were other big art pieces and art cars using LED labs. It works with a number of other LED controllers as well, but Chris, Peter Tjeersman (an LED lighting designer who did art cars for peeps last year) and I have been using something called the "Pixel-pusher" ( http://www.heroicrobotics.com/products/pixelpusher) , a product developed by other bay area artist/programmer/burner nerds who do light shows under the moniker of "Heroic Robot". the two systems combined allow enormous versatility and allows you time to develop the light patterns as opposed to coding.

All told your investment will be about 200 dollars (120 for the pixel pusher and 70 or so for Chris's software with "artist pack" . (He has a free download so you can try it out..., available on the apple store. I think he is also working on a linux based version as well).
Hope this helps.
Kevin.

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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by kevinwells » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:59 am

oops that was a cross thread posting, please ignore...

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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Remco » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:00 pm

I tried using reflective mylar reflective grow film, the kind used in agriculture. It's the same material as those emergency thermal blankets. 1) Turns out it creates and incredible plastic crackling noise when it is flapping in the wind. So much so that I ditched the idea and borrowed a large tarp from neighbours instead. 2) While it is very strong when intact, once it has the tiniest tear it will tear all the way through. This makes it impossible to poke holes in it.

Two questions on the attic radiant barrier. 1) How much noise does it produce when it is flapping in the wind? 2) How well does it stop a tear from growing.

kevinwells
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by kevinwells » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:39 pm

The stuff does not rip, its essentially a white poly tarp with a reflective coating on one side. Noise wise, it was noisy in the wind if it was loose. again , essentially the same as a poly tarp.
I had 4 years of use for my attic foil covers. While still reflective overall, a lot of light comes through. It looks like a night sky with millions of little stars...kind of pretty in its own way. The filament tape has dried out and was starting to fail everywhere. Not one grommet ever ripped out. They are the way to go with this material. But...the covers are showing their age. Its time to update the covers and this time I will use a less noisy material, aka some form of canvas.

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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by benformative » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:53 am

A few years ago I sewed up a 32'x15' tarp (four strips of 48") and end-cones for monkey hut with the attic foil material. I used polyester coated E/69 thread in my 1950s Singer and no tape anywhere. The sewed seams have had no issues. The aluminum coating is delicate and is slightly damaged in spots from touching the concrete floor of garage, from rolling it up to get through sewing machine, and anywhere it was flexed repeatedly. I have full length Jeep zippers on each end-cone for access and lost some aluminum at the immediate door area, from use of door. I also sewed polyester webbing tabs at 18" spacing on perimeter and used no grommets. The tabs work good with bungies, and not good without (I ripped out two tabs once, when attached directly to lags and drove the lags into the ground more for more tension). I hate patching damaged areas of aluminum and replacing ripped out edges. Sometimes the silver mylar tape is good enough.

Ive observed that the aluminum coating will develop pinholes when the material is pulled on the diagonal. It also gets damaged quickly when allow to do any amount of "tarp-slap". It is important to keep the material taught. The aluminum will delaminate a little each time it makes that smacking sound. I know that many teeny bits of the aluminum coating have fallen off and I have not brought those bits home.

Ive been trying out some oil based chrome aluminum paint (with flake aluminum) to repair small areas on the tarp showing damage. This paint is not supposed to stick to tarp material, yet it does, even with vigorous flexing. I am also evaluating the same paint on light cotton canvas for use in areas that need to flex repeatedly (the doors). So far the paint seems to work and stay attached to both materials. However, I am still not fully convinced.

In the heat of 2017, inside the monkey hut, and inside a tent covered with another layer of the attic foil, I could comfortably sleep past noon every day without any cooling.

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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Capinator » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:59 am

We expanded our traditional 10x10 based shade structure this year and added 10x10 attic foil tarps that we had taped together and grommeted (so much knee time!). The material is also epic for that. Significantly cooler under the reflective tarps. So much so that when the sun moved and came through gaps - it felt like getting hit with a laser :) . The tents are still going strong in their 5th (? - I've lost track) year.
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krly
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by krly » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:58 pm

Capinator; for the 10x10 flat tops....was it worth all the taping and grommeting as opposed to just using the "standard" silver tarps ? How about comparative costs ?
Thanks........krly

Capinator
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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Capinator » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:10 pm

You can find white 10x10 tarp for maybe $10 if you look. An equivalent attic foil tarp, taped and grommeted, is probably about $20. Is it worth it? I think so. It is significantly cooler and darker under the attic foil. But, I didn't measure anything. It's just a matter of preference - and for us the chance to experiment with something that hasn't often been done before.

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Re: "New" shade structure material

Post by Papa Bear » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:01 pm

Thanks for the update - I sat under that shade a couple of times, but never realized that they were anything other than your typical gray tarp.

Then again, those monster misters you folks came up with did kind of steal the attention...

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